Sorry to hear about your mishap Bill, but glad that it was relatively minor.

Based on your description you're probably right - you just let the big girl get a little to far over. Once you hit that tipping point there's little you can do. I agree that an ERC would probably be of benefit, as would some slow-speed practice on your own. But let the trained folks show you the proper methods first.

And remember, the LT's weight is what makes the bike so stable at freeway speeds, and its high center of gravity and slow-speed ponderousness just adds to it's ability to hustle through the corners.

 

Crash

Cold tires, cold tires, cold tires. Did I say cold tires. You got to warm them puppies up before going into a tight learn turn.

At the end of my street are two S-curves. In the morning my lean angle is more conservative then when I come home, because I know the tires are warmed up.

 

Howdy. Considering what you do for a living I take thisas quite a cautionary tale. You have quite a good reputation for bike control. That cold tires could catch you out really strikes home to me. For the first time, I'm pushing into cold weather riding and I'm very much a high lean angle rider. But that riding has been primarily in warm to hot weather. I get the message about cold tires, but it's not always easy to remember the message when the juices are up and a favorite corner is coming.

For the rest of the community, is there any tell-tales or determining when the tires are up to temp other than surfing down the road on you butt?

Thanks again for your report.

Karl

 

Wait a few.

Once you hop on the motor, take a few mintues down the road, before going into those corners. Let yourself get also adjusted in the saddle, take mental notes what you are going to do etc.........

 

Once you hop on the motor, take a few mintues down the road, before going into those corners. Let yourself get also adjusted in the saddle, take mental notes what you are going to do etc.........

Hi, John. Very good advice. I try really hard to do just that each and ever time I ride. What I'm talking about, for example, the temp is 30. The bike has been outside for 8 hours. Now I know starting out that the tires will not have anything like the same traction as if the temp is 90. So, I'll ride most carefully at first. But when my first favorite peg scraping turn comes up, I will back it way down as I'm not sure the tires are up to temp even after several miles of riding. So -- is the tire temp thing just a rough rule of thumb or is there a way to know for sure? Thanks so much for your most excellent advise.

Karl

 

Another thought...

Perhaps the engine was still a bit cold and not responsive to the throttle when you let the bike angle. If at that point the engine did hesitate a bit the bike simply lied down for you to pick afterward.

 

Races

Karl,
I know you have seen a motorcycle/car race. If you ever watch the beginning the racers take a warm up lap or more. You see them moving back and forth, just warming up those tires. Also they ,the racers, keep their tires in tire warmers to keep the tires up in temperature. I believe there has to be some true.

 

Bill, I am glad that you or Budda Bike was not hurt. A road rash is a sign of experience, that you can share in the next ride off I think the human computer was also cold not just the tires :histerica

 

For the rest of the community, is there any tell-tales or determining when the tires are up to temp other than surfing down the road on your butt?

You could always install a SmarTire system. That gives you tire pressure and temp at the push of a button.

 

Cold tires, cold tires, cold tires. Did I say cold tires. You got to warm them puppies up before going into a tight learn turn.

At the end of my street are two S-curves. In the morning my lean angle is more conservative then when I come home, because I know the tires are warmed up.

Tell me more -- what does a cold tire do (or not do) that a warm tire does/does not? How does it behave differently?

(I ask out of curiousity and a desire to learn, not because I'm questioning the comment...)

 

Cold tires

How do I explain this. Tire is rubber. Rubber when warm/hot gets sticky. Cold tire is like cement. Cold and slick. Add in the cold weather, I am sure the drag factor or slip factor adds in a lot.

I am not a tire engineer, but I do have a lot of common sense. I do not trust my cold tires when I first get on the motorcycle.

Hot rods do a burn out before they do a run, because the want the tire to get nice hot and sticky.

Remember that your tire has a tire patch and when you corner you use up a certain amount of tire traction. I sure that the cold will eat up tire traction.

 

me too...

I am a relatively conservative rider, judging from what I read on this site. However, recently I've been playing around with with making sharper slow speed 90 degree turns by letting the bike "fall" in the direction of the turn and accelerating out of the turn with controlled brio. This is no different in principle than higher speed cornering, and I've enjoyed the sense of "cutting" the corner. This morning I stopped at the end of a driveway, looked both ways, had plenty of time with regard to oncoming traffic, pulled out and made a right hand turn (letting the bike fall into the turn and rolling on the throttle), and found myself down on the road while the bike slid about 15 yards on its right side and slowly revolved 180 degrees. I had absolutely no sense of loosing control of the bike, and no sense that it was going down. I've been in situations where the rear wheel kicked out a bit during a higher speed turn (tar snakes, sand, operator error), and in those situations I've always had that instantaneous "uh oh" even as I got the bike back on track. This time I literally was sliding on pavement before my brain caught up with the fact that I was down. It was very weird.

This crash was caused by operator error. The bike has relatively new Wilbers, tires have lots of tread and are inflated properly, throttle response is excellent, the road surface was dry and intact and completely clear of sand, leaves, oil or other fluids, etc., it was full daylight, etc., etc. I can only conclude that I leaned the bike over too far (although I wasn't scraping the peg) and/or did not come on with enough throttle. No harm to bike or to me, although we both carry some new road rash. I'm going to get myself to an ERC next Spring for sure, and in the meantime continue to work this cornering technique so that I can get a better feel for the right lean/acceleration combination. Thoughts or comment would be welcome.

was,

To avoid the extra typing and the risk of sounding redundant, I just changed the font to red where it applies to my experience three weeks ago… As you said, there was no sense of loosing control… I remarked to a few friends how with most crashes/near misses I’ve experienced there was at least a short spell of slow motion… there was no slow motion here; just instant BAM followed by that dreadful sliding sound. Luckily, damage was limited by the tip over wing and heavy jeans to a quarter-sized rash on me and the bike...

Three differences in our experience:

• While I’m far from an expert, that style of riding (turning) is something I’m comfortable doing.
• My tires were brand new, just mounted, unscuffed (metzelers), but like yours, cold.
• In hindsight I was overly anxious to "feel" the additional grip of the new rubber as I turned the throttle. I do recall an ever so slight sensation of the rear slipping before it went down.

Equally as dismayed as to what happened , I went back for a look at the scene and saw the narrow, widening arc of rubber left by the rear as it spun and slid sideways out from under me and the bike with that anxious twist of the throttle. I offer that your problem may have as likely been too much throttle as too little… either way you’re headed for a low side get off!

I agree wholeheartedly with motorman. Warm up (and scuff up) those tires before you combine throttle and lean angles that normally produce those ear-to-ear grins!


RIDE SAFE!

 

• My tires were brand new, just mounted, unscuffed (metzelers), but like yours, cold.
• In hindsight I was overly anxious to "feel" the additional grip of the new rubber as I turned the throttle. I do recall an ever so slight sensation of the rear slipping before it went down.

Unfortunately it takes a good 100 miles to sufficiently take of the slippery stuff off of new tires. In your case cold tires only made the situation worse. New tires are always slippery because they still have the mold release compounds on the surface of the rubber.

When I put new tires on I am never aggressive until I have at least 100 miles. I'm sure it can be done in 10 intensive miles however I'm patient. I need to also mention that 100 miles of an interstate does not count. During your scuff in you need to start being more aggressive in turns and rolling up the side of your tires.

 

Sorry about your mishap Bill. We'll have to get you a stall warning indicator (if I can use flying talk), sounds like your were not up to flying speed when you leaned as you exited the driveway. Behind the power curve, ie lift (provided by centrifugal force against the tire patch) was less then the weight of the LT at your induced lean angle. I know your street is narrow, and a 90 deg turn from a standing stop out of your driveway, with out keeping the bike close to vertical, is tricky. Barnett

 

Bill, thank you for sharing your story. Glad you and bike are ok. To me, it sounds like you hit the throttle while leaning and the back tire just slid right off from under you.

Seeing as how my own shadow sneaks up on me at times, you have reminded me to watch my lean angle and throttle!

 

Thanks, all, for the comments and suggestions, they have been very instructive, particularly John's warning about cold tires. Temp was in the low 40s and the bike had been sitting outside for about 2 hours, so it makes sense that the tire temp had something to do with it, and this was a variable that I had not considered or even read much about. It's burned into my brain now for sure.

A couple of other variables have come to mind as I have had time to think about this. First, I have not ridden the bike much in the past 6 weeks because of time pressures, so I probably was less attuned to the bike than usual. Second, I raised the seat to the high position after my last ride; even though I'm fairly tall I usually ride with the seat in the low position. I don't know if this affected the bike's COG, but being taller in the saddle may have affected my sense of how far over the bike was leaning.

Lessons learned: warm up the tires; take an ERC; do more slow speed practice on a regular basis; if average miles per week or month have declined, so has my skill level; after changing the bike's parameters, get used to its new characteristics before playing.

Nothing teaches like experience, and I'd say that I paid a small price for the learning. Thanks again.

 

If you were running 48lbs rear and 42lbs front and a cold start with hard tires, that might be the cause of your slide. Not based on any scientific knowledge, just my opinion.

 

Karl,
I know you have seen a motorcycle/car race. If you ever watch the beginning the racers take a warm up lap or more. You see them moving back and forth, just warming up those tires. Also they ,the racers, keep their tires in tire warmers to keep the tires up in temperature. I believe there has to be some true.

Hi, John. I believe that. I'm heading home late at night these days and a couple of days ago the outside temp was about 28 deg. The first thing I run through leaving the parking lot is a traffic circle. In the summer I'm tearing through there dragging the inside foot peg. These winter days, I'm driving through there at about half the speed not even close to peg scraping. I just hope the Dunlops will give some notice they are not warmed up. But believe me, I don't push the cornering at all going home in these kind of temps. Karl

 

Cold Tire Traction

Thanks for the warning, and there appears to have been a lot of good, technically sound advice in response. This is an area I never really thought about, and if you look at my other site contributions, you will see I'm a fairly analytical guy. Now that I think of it, drag and track racers both warm up the tires for increased traction.

I guess I haven't been bitten by this because I'm fortunate enough to be able to garage my bike in 10F warmer-than-outdoor temps, however I'm a prime candidate, since I ride in cold weather. Also, my sales manager gave me the same new-tire advice upon initial purchase of my bike: allow 100 miles of "easy-going" riding to get the glaze off the tires. I would add that during the initial 100 miles progressively increase the lean angle so as to always have a major portion of the tire patch consisting of an already-scuffed area.

Thanks again.