I did my 12k at 5k miles. The valve clearances we in spec, but the valve timing was off a couple of degrees. So it was probably set wrong at the factory

 

I've read forum posts that indicate that this issue is not uncommon. I think that it often manifests itself as hard starting.

 

$900 might be a little high, and having a dealer mechanic telling you to skip service is also not quite right...somewhere in the middle is what you need.

For Randyjaco, doing the 12k service before about 10k is premature in that some things are just not broken in until that point...it takes a certain number of starts, warmups, cool downs, etc to really see that tolerances are settled in...so I think you still need to do the 12k check around that mileage.

BKRT, I don't see where you live, but I will offer to do your 12k service for just the cost of consumables. That usually runs between $150-250...depends on some variables.

Lemme know...

 

At 12k service for my ‘16 RT all valves were well within spec, but my dealer still charged me $900 and change for the service.

 

I have had the opportunity to do the 12K service on 5 R engines, water cooled. These bikes were obviously new and I was the first person to open them up from the factory. (always a treat) Four of them the valve clearance was in spec and not even on the edge on any valve. Out of the five bikes the cam timing was off on four of the bikes. I even had a 1250 engine with the shift cam set up come in, valves good cam timing off by a few degrees. This cam timing shows up in delayed starting and not running as smooth as possible. When timing is dialed in to factory spec I always get feed back as to how good the bike is running or it never ran this well. I know of a dealer who has been selling the new shift cam series for a few years now and did not own the cam alignment tools to do the cam timing at the 12 K service. I wonder if they were charged for it? I bet that $900 dollar service is much like this scenario, service done but not all of it. The 1200 vs the 1250 engines use a different cam alignment tool. Also the 1250's require the servo to shift the cams be removed to use the tool. So it does take more time but not much. Even off a few degrees makes a difference. It is so tempting to check the valves and find them in spec and say all is good. Not!

 

Oh… and dealer B said that the service included plugging the bike in since it would need software updates.
I guess as the consumer I’m leery of these dealers. Once your bike goes through the service department doors, you don’t know what the hell goes on, or doesn’t go on.
I need to just learn to do it myself so you know things were taken care of …

 

I had the 112K done on my 20'RT about a month and it cost a little over $900. I felt it important to make sure everything came correctly from the factory. If there are no issues, I probably won't feel the 24K is as important. If the dealer found anything wrong, he didn't tell me.

 

That was 12K, not 112K. Need to proofread better/sooner.

 

Do the the first one for peace of mind as they are not always good. My 2021 RT at about 10,000 had 2 of them just past the limit and another 4 near the max. If you can take Brad up on his offer as you won't regret it.

 

My experience on valve checks on the 15 RT and the 17.5 GS were completely different.

The 15 stayed in spec the 33,000 miles I had it. That is from 600 miles checking every 6K.

My 17.5 ALL exhaust valves were tight at 60 miles, 600 miles, 6000 miles and I changed all 4 at 12,000. When I say tight at 60 miles they were.35 at 600 they were .35 tight. At 6000 they were .34 loose. At 12000 They were a .34 and I decided to change them.

While shooting for middle was what a lot of the consensus was it is what I was after. But with the 4 OEM shims in play and the kit I had of shims it ended up a bit tighter then the middle. As it turns out Brad has made the point that loose or middle may in fact be one of the causes of the beloved rattles of our boxer motors. As it can allow a bit more clatter with a looser tolerance in valves. So dumb luck on my part there as I totally agree middle/tight is good for valves.

Again it is your bike, but with all the things going on, and the small amount of time it takes to check valves and do a cam inspection it is well worth the time spent IMHO.

I would run from ANY dealer that blows off valve checks. At this point it may be they don't want to open a can of worn cams, and want to deal with it. All I know it is very cheap insurance to check valves and inspect your cams. The gaskets are just about forever and another dealer money maker so you don't have to worry on that cost so it is basically some time on your part.

I saw pictures of a bike come from a 12K service and was opened up and four cam lobes were gone! So it either happened in a 20 mile run to where it was opened, or the dealer never opened the bike for the 12K valve check. That particular dealer made the owner whole but IMHO after that you would never be whole.

Valve checks are time well spent with your bike.

 

Just purchased a 2014 RT with 29k and it doesn’t appear a valve clearance check has ever been accomplished. I spoke with a BMW service advisor hoping he could pull up a more detailed service records, but no. The 12k and 24k services have been signed in the book by a dealer, but the service invoices do not list a clearance check, only changing the oil and spark plugs. He said if the valves were checked they’d likely list new valve cover seals. As an airline inspector, signing for a maintenance interval means you accomplished all that the interval requires. On a positive note the advisor said he’d never seen one out of spec. I will be checking them soon.

 

Valves check every 12K x4 now--all well within spec.

 

My thinking is if you have valve(s) at the spec limit, you're "in limits" and good-to-go another 12k. If you're "well within" I'd be comfortable extending the interval another 6k or more.

 

Inspecktor, first the dealer makes big money on new valve cover gaskets. They are about $90 per side and do not need to be changed for several years, until they start getting hard. I suspect the cam timing has never been checked and is often off on a newer bike as the parts settle in. Very slippery dealers. Spark plugs available from Euromotoelectric half price or cheaper. BMW is trying to get more or all bikes into their shops for maintenance, thus no service manuals available any more for the public. (hey, my dad was born in Sugden Ok. now a back wash of 20 houses or less)

 

The dealers are in business to make money, but an additional incentive to install new gaskets is to eliminate the chance of an unhappy customer returning to the shop with leaking valve covers. "Cam chain timing" I need to read up on that.

 

FWIW, my work bike, a 2017 RT, just turned 90k and has been in for service every 6k and followed the maintenance schedule exactly. Not once have they had to make any adjustments to valves or anything else for that matter. Oil, brake pads, and tires is about all it's needed. Now to get that last 10k out of the way so I can get me my 2022!!!

 

I recently did a valve check on a 2019 RT. I forgot to use the chain tensioner. Went back and did both sides again and with the tensioner the cam gauge would not fit the ends of the cams. Also the reluctor position for the cam position pick up was off. So yes, it does matter. Of course the bike will run but not as well as it could. I always like it when the customer calls back and says it runs better that ever. With out locking the crankshaft things can move especially if you install the cam tensioner. It is all part of a package to get back to OEM spec. A bike that has made several trips to the dealer and had no needed adjustments is very suspect in my opinion. Here is the end of a batch of locking pins. Dimensions match the factory too including metric drill rod for pin.

 

Nice job on that TDC tool.

I also find a bike going 24K or 36K with no adjustments on cam timing or cam pick up sensor suspect.

I also believe the day of BMW holding valve clearance forever is waning also. Or I should say factory settings are not what they had been and maybe QC? So IMHO anyone with a new bike should be documenting valves at 6K and every 6K until they see how the valves are holding clearance.

I found my 17.5 GS had 4 exhaust valves tight at 60, 600, 6000, and I changed them at 6000. They have held no changes as I completed my 24K yesterday.

It was a progression of how the feeler gauge slid. On one number it would not go, the next it would go but very tight. As I watched this on those three checks I knew I wanted to get them closer to middle.

My cam alignment was out at 60 miles and the cam position sensor was off. Since I have no idea how many degrees cam timing is off since it is go no go we dont know if it was advance or retard? I would love to have something like a degree wheel we used to use back in the day for timing. But for now it is go no go on cam timing. Of the many I have done most have been No Go. So a QC issue again IMHO.

 

Inspektor224,
There is an Update to the DIY Cam Chain Tension Tool YT Video, and it shows a much more precise way to establish a starting point on the CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner).
My reference to 13lbs should be disregarded as it is not precise enough to get the slack just right on the cam chain.

Likewise, not only do you need to establish TDC using the notch in the Alternator Rotor, but you need to lock it in, with no allowable movement while the CCT is doing its job.
Several moving components that all have compounding amounts of tolerance that can lead to pretty crappy results if not done with the right tools to establish the proper results.

In other words, NO, you will not be able to use a "chop stick" to feel the piston at TDC and put the transmission in 6th gear to hold the engine while you push up on the bottom of the cam chain using a small scissors jack and a wooden dowel.

Sorry, I don't mean to poke fun at part of your earlier post, but this is a pretty well defined procedure that has speciality tools designed to get the job done precisely...and once done early in the life of the Boxer engine life, will probably stay within spec for many thousands of miles and years of happy riding.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to poke fun at part of your earlier post, but this is a pretty well defined procedure that has speciality tools designed to get the job done precisely...and once done early in the life of the Boxer engine life, will probably stay within spec for many thousands of miles and years of happy riding.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have.

What is the approximate cost for all the "specialty tools" designed to get this job done? Source? Part numbers?

Thanks,

 

This is a HUGE question, and all of the answers involve variables.
The OEM tools are all listed in my YT videos, but are sometimes difficult to source, so any answers about OEM tools are iffy at best.
Part # are here:
from A&S Motorcycles
83302327790 8mm TDC Tool $126
83302327796 Cam Alignment Jig $51
83300444292 Cam Chain Tensioner $320
83302339885 Cam Chain Tensioner Sleeve $16
83302327808 Engine Turning Tool (optional) $51

Looking these parts up online usually leads to a result showing "NOT AVAILABLE" or "BACKORDERED" so are difficult to find if you can find them at all.

The online total for the above parts is about $565, but not all available.

I do make all the above tools except for the Cam Alignment Jig, since it's too difficult for me to reproduce that Jig with the tools that I have.

IF...I have any left after I go to a couple of rally events over the next couple of months, I'll post them for sale...I'm not keeping a list of who wants them yet, as the DIY Cam Timing Kit is a pretty hot item and I've had lots of interest from several forums.
I have also made a dozen or so of the Cam Chain Tensioner Sleeves for the OEM CCT for the 1250, so if you own 83300444292 from above, this new sleeve allows you to upgrade to the 1250 and still use the same CCT. $20
I plan to list them on the BMWSportTouring Forum as I'm most involved there and am supporting the START and UnRally events coming up. from above, this new sleeve allows you to upgrade to the 1250 and still use the same CCT.

This DIY Kit I make does work for the 1250 as well except for the Cam Alignment Jig set for the ShiftHead.
83302467268 Cam Alignment Jig Set for 1250 $226
All of the above listed prices are from A&S Motorcycles

If/when I do start selling the Kits, the ones I make are priced as below.
I don't plan on shipping outside the US as I don't want to deal with Customs.
A huge amount of research and effort has gone into this DIY Kit and getting the donor CCT is very, very difficult.

CCT Price List

1. CCT with 42mm sleeve $175
2. TDC Locking 8mm Pin $85
3. 16mm Torque Adaptor $35
4. Engine Turning Tool $55
5. WetHead Cam Alignment Jig $50
6. S&H using PP Family and Friends $15

Total for WetHeads
#1-#4 $350
#1-#4 $365 shipped USPS lower 48 as a Kit
#1-#5 $400
#1-#5 $415 shipped USPS lower 48 as a Kit

 

@Boxflyer

Thanks for taking the time for a very thorough and informative response.
Much appreciated.

 

Well it is good you realize it needs to be checked on. The exhaust cam on the left looking at the front rotates clockwise. You can inspect the cam timing at the reluctor and make an educated guess as to how far things are. Generally it is not much, say 3 degrees or less. But that reluctor needs to be set right on. Makes a great deal of difference in how the bike runs. In this picture of a wet head set up it is more clear than the manual picture for the shift cam engine but it is the same. The mark on the wheel must be at the beginning of the groove in the pick up. Before is advanced, after is retarded this wheel rotates counterclockwise.
I have found the least amount of out of time will not permit the factory timing gauge to slip on the cam ends. When I first saw the gauge, I thought wtf, this is no way to deal with this but I was wrong. Pesky Germans got this down. And the shift cam wrench for turning over the engine is a wonderful tool. I suspect just like the service DVD's, BMW will stop selling factory tools. That will be a sorry day.

 

The mark on the wheel must be at the beginning of the groove in the pick up

Thank you for shearing that information. Just to make it clear, the shiftcam alignment is to the left side of the sensor's flat part, as marked in red, as it has no groove like the water cooled on your picture. This is all based on the manual pictures as I haven't opened up my shiftcam as yet.

 

There is a fellow who makes videos and is actually quite helpful for many folks but I have one issue. JVB is his go by name. He says you can check cam timing by using a straight edge between them. This is pure bunk. Too many variables for that nonsense.

 

I don't recall Jim saying that! Where and when was this? If he had said that, then he will be absolutely wrong. You can check the valve clearance by locating the TDC wth a straight edge on the two flats that BMW had designed into the cam shaft (I prefer the old screwdriver in the spark-plug hole method), but it's not even close enough for doing the cam timing!!