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The integrated dry sump allows the engine to be more compact, and to allow it to be set lower and further forward in the frame. That's how they fit that wonderful Slant/6 engine in there. Yes, there are two oil drain plugs, but the tradeoff is a bike with massive torque and impressive sporty handling. That works just fine for me . . .

And again, there is absolutely no problem with removing or installing the inner plug if you use the right tools. An extended 5mm allen socket holds the drain plug just fine without fear of it falling off or stripping out.

You might as well complain that your cheap ball-end allen wrenches don't fit the Torx body screws, and how stupid BMW is for using them . . .

BMW designs high-end bikes that maximize comfort and performance. They do not design it to be wrenched on by clumsy home mechanics that can't be bothered to use the proper set of tools . . .

Sorry, no sympathy here . . .
You seem to assume that there is no way to have a compact design and have it be easy to work on. I don't accept that.

However, this is a pretty good rationalization for a stupid design. Almost as good as the Harley rationalization ... The "if you have to ask, you won't understand" one. :histerica
 

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You seem to assume that there is no way to have a compact design and have it be easy to work on. I don't accept that.

However, this is a pretty good rationalization for a stupid design. Almost as good as the Harley rationalization ... The "if you have to ask, you won't understand" one. :histerica
No matter the brand you'll find the people who will rationalize anything rather than criticize the brand they've bought into.
 

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And you obviously don't realize that the K16 is easier to do basic maintenance on than the K12 is. Sure, there are two oil drain plugs, but there's no separate tranny drain plug that's blocked by the centerstand. The K16 air filter is easy to get to, without removing the entire fuel tank like on the K12. And there is no fuel filter to mess with, unlike the K12 that requires removing the entire pump assy from the tank (good thing you've already pulled the tank out for the air filter, right?). Changing the final drive gear oil is a wash, except that the K16's FD doesn't come grinding apart at random . . .

Nor do you have to change out frayed throttle cables, crappy "factory" intercoms, leaky clutch slave cylinders, broken trunk latches, or failed power ABS units. (Does that count as criticizing the brand? :))

I'll give you that the valve check is more involved because you have to pull the radiator, but that's only every 18K (or more, as the Slant/6 valves hardly ever move at all). And if you want to be pedantic, the Boxer valve check is much easier that the LT's anyway . . .

Sure, my two K16s have had minor issues, all dealt with quickly and easily under warranty. Unlike my two LTs, which both left me stranded far from home with major repairs that I had to pay out of pocket. The reasons I went away from the LT are still justified, and pretty common knowledge based on the amount of similar failures I've seen on this board over the years . . .

It's not about rationalization, unless you're talking about rationalization of how horrible it is by folks who don't own a K16. :bmw:

As an engineer and a lifelong gearhead, I understand on a deep level many of the design tradeoffs that BMW has made, why they did so, and what benefits it offers to the rider.

I truly enjoyed both of my LTs, and put 135K quite enjoyable miles on them across two different continents. But there's no way I'd trade my K16 for an LT.

I'm much happier with the K16's superior power, handling, gadgetry, and comfort, most of which can be directly attributed to many of the design choices that BMW has made.

If it's not the right bike for you, that's fine. Meanwhile, many thousands of us are putting many millions of miles on these fantastic bikes, and will continue to do so, no matter how or why you happen to rationalize keeping your "old" bike. :cool:
 

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And you obviously don't realize that the K16 is easier to do basic maintenance on than the K12 is. Sure, there are two oil drain plugs, but there's no separate tranny drain plug that's blocked by the centerstand. The K16 air filter is easy to get to, without removing the entire fuel tank like on the K12. And there is no fuel filter to mess with, unlike the K12 that requires removing the entire pump assy from the tank (good thing you've already pulled the tank out for the air filter, right?). Changing the final drive gear oil is a wash, except that the K16's FD doesn't come grinding apart at random . . .

Nor do you have to change out frayed throttle cables, crappy "factory" intercoms, leaky clutch slave cylinders, broken trunk latches, or failed power ABS units. (Does that count as criticizing the brand? :))

I'll give you that the valve check is more involved because you have to pull the radiator, but that's only every 18K (or more, as the Slant/6 valves hardly ever move at all). And if you want to be pedantic, the Boxer valve check is much easier that the LT's anyway . . .

Sure, my two K16s have had minor issues, all dealt with quickly and easily under warranty. Unlike my two LTs, which both left me stranded far from home with major repairs that I had to pay out of pocket. The reasons I went away from the LT are still justified, and pretty common knowledge based on the amount of similar failures I've seen on this board over the years . . .

It's not about rationalization, unless you're talking about rationalization of how horrible it is by folks who don't own a K16. :bmw:

As an engineer and a lifelong gearhead, I understand on a deep level many of the design tradeoffs that BMW has made, why they did so, and what benefits it offers to the rider.

I truly enjoyed both of my LTs, and put 135K quite enjoyable miles on them across two different continents. But there's no way I'd trade my K16 for an LT.

I'm much happier with the K16's superior power, handling, gadgetry, and comfort, most of which can be directly attributed to many of the design choices that BMW has made.

If it's not the right bike for you, that's fine. Meanwhile, many thousands of us are putting many millions of miles on these fantastic bikes, and will continue to do so, no matter how or why you happen to rationalize keeping your "old" bike. :cool:
I never said it wasn't an easier bike to maintain. That doesn't change the fact that it still has some stupid design elements such as the goofy internal drain plug. Tell me why this design HAS to be this way?
 

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I never said it wasn't an easier bike to maintain. That doesn't change the fact that it still has some stupid design elements such as the goofy internal drain plug. Tell me why this design HAS to be this way?
Here, found in google. I don't know what it means though...

Integrated dry sump lubrication for optimum oil supply.

The 6-cylinder in-line engine of the K 1600 GT and K 1600 GTL uses an integrated dry sump lubrication system. In addition to a high level of operating reliability, it allows a flat construction of the crankcase and therefore a lower installation position of the engine and a concentration of masses close to the centre of gravity. This makes it possible to do without a conventional oil sump with oil reservoir, so the engine can be placed much lower in the vehicle than would be the case with a conventional construction. The oil reservoir forms an integrated oil tank in the rear section of the engine casing. A separate tank is therefore not required, which consequently has a positive effect in terms of
the compact construction of the motorcycle and overall weight.

The dual oil pump is housed in the rear section of the engine casing and driven by cogs from the clutch shaft, circulating 4.5 litres of lubricant (engine oil capacity including filter change). It draws the lubrication oil from the oil reservoir and initially feeds it into the oil filter (full-flow filter) as pressure oil. The latter is located on the left lower crankcase side where it is easily accessible. From here the pressure oil reaches the main oil ducts in the
crankcase and is distributed to the lubrication points via internal bores. The returning lubricant collects at the lowest point of the crankcase in the sump pan. The second pump supplies the returning oil to the oil cooler initially, and from here it flows back into the oil tank. The oil cooler is located below the headlamp in the front trim panel for optimum air flow. No monitoring of lubricant supply is necessary: if the oil level drops excessively, this is displayed in the instrument panel by means of an electronic oil sensor.

===================

All I know is that I like this engine and if it takes an extra screw to drian all the oil so be it.:cool:
 

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IBR# 366
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Tell me why this design HAS to be this way?
I did, just above:

meese said:
The integrated dry sump allows the engine to be more compact, and to allow it to be set lower and further forward in the frame. That's how they fit that wonderful Slant/6 engine in there.
And you refused to accept it.

Kinda hard to have a real conversation that way . . .
 

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I don't know what it means though...
I know exactly what that means. It means that by removing the lower oil pan entirely, the crank, pistons, and the rest of the engine can be placed lower and further forward in the frame. This lowers the overall center of gravity and balances front-to-rear weight distribution, vastly improving both low-speed and high-speed handling, as anyone who has really wrung out the K16 clearly knows.

But the oil still needs to go somewhere, so there's a small sump right next to the crank (the inner drain plug), while the rest of the oil resides in an upper reservoir (that's nicely tucked up behind the cylinder bank).

These design decisions were thought through very carefully, and optimized to fit the purpose of the bike, giving it a smooth, powerful, responsive, and fuel-efficient engine that simply blows away the competition.

And I'd bet that random backyard mechanics whinging because they don't have the proper tools to do an oil change in their garage wasn't high on BMW's list of design criteria . . .

All I know is that I like this engine and if it takes an extra screw to drian all the oil so be it. :cool:
And I know that the bike handles really well for a large, comfortable tourer. BMW nailed this one . . . :bmw:
 

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Here, found in google. I don't know what it means though...

Integrated dry sump lubrication for optimum oil supply.

The 6-cylinder in-line engine of the K 1600 GT and K 1600 GTL uses an integrated dry sump lubrication system. In addition to a high level of operating reliability, it allows a flat construction of the crankcase and therefore a lower installation position of the engine and a concentration of masses close to the centre of gravity. This makes it possible to do without a conventional oil sump with oil reservoir, so the engine can be placed much lower in the vehicle than would be the case with a conventional construction. The oil reservoir forms an integrated oil tank in the rear section of the engine casing. A separate tank is therefore not required, which consequently has a positive effect in terms of
the compact construction of the motorcycle and overall weight.

The dual oil pump is housed in the rear section of the engine casing and driven by cogs from the clutch shaft, circulating 4.5 litres of lubricant (engine oil capacity including filter change). It draws the lubrication oil from the oil reservoir and initially feeds it into the oil filter (full-flow filter) as pressure oil. The latter is located on the left lower crankcase side where it is easily accessible. From here the pressure oil reaches the main oil ducts in the
crankcase and is distributed to the lubrication points via internal bores. The returning lubricant collects at the lowest point of the crankcase in the sump pan. The second pump supplies the returning oil to the oil cooler initially, and from here it flows back into the oil tank. The oil cooler is located below the headlamp in the front trim panel for optimum air flow. No monitoring of lubricant supply is necessary: if the oil level drops excessively, this is displayed in the instrument panel by means of an electronic oil sensor.

===================

All I know is that I like this engine and if it takes an extra screw to drian all the oil so be it.:cool:
Dry sump systems have been used for decades. Their advantages are well known. BMW is the only dry sump system designer that I know of that had to have a second drain plug inside the crankcase though...
 

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I know exactly what that means. It means that by removing the lower oil pan entirely, the crank, pistons, and the rest of the engine can be placed lower and further forward in the frame. This lowers the overall center of gravity and balances front-to-rear weight distribution, vastly improving both low-speed and high-speed handling, as anyone who has really wrung out the K16 clearly knows.

But the oil still needs to go somewhere, so there's a small sump right next to the crank (the inner drain plug), while the rest of the oil resides in an upper reservoir (that's nicely tucked up behind the cylinder bank).

These design decisions were thought through very carefully, and optimized to fit the purpose of the bike, giving it a smooth, powerful, responsive, and fuel-efficient engine that simply blows away the competition.

And I'd bet that random backyard mechanics whinging because they don't have the proper tools to do an oil change in their garage wasn't high on BMW's list of design criteria . . .

And I know that the bike handles really well for a large, comfortable tourer. BMW nailed this one . . . :bmw:
BMW has not cared about serviceability since the airhead days.

And they aren't the first by a long shot to understand the advantages of a dry sump system. As far as I know though, they are the first to implement one with a goofy drain plug design!:histerica

I agree the 1600 does many things very well. I just don't agree that this excuses the stupid drain plug design. My engineering standards are higher than that.
 

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Dry sump systems have been used for decades. Their advantages are well known. BMW is the only dry sump system designer that I know of that had to have a second drain plug inside the crankcase though...
BMW is the only 1600, six cylinder that fits in the space of the in line 4 that I know of.:cool:
 

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BMW has not cared about serviceability since the airhead days.

And they aren't the first by a long shot to understand the advantages of a dry sump system. As far as I know though, they are the first to implement one with a goofy drain plug design!:histerica

I agree the 1600 does many things very well. I just don't agree that this excuses the stupid drain plug design. My engineering standards are higher than that.
Well then design us a plug that will get both holes done at the same time. Easy.;)
 

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IBR# 366
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BMW has not cared about serviceability since the airhead days.
Says you. :)

BMW has specifically addressed serviceability issues on the newer models. The K12/13GT was easier to service than the LT, and the K16 is easier still. Hëll, just getting the body panels off takes about half the time as the LT, and 90% of those screws are the same length, with none of those prone-to-failure rubber well nuts.

And the changes they've made are specifically related to increased performance, which is obvious to anyone who's ridden the bike (even you, from your previous ride report).

Look, you've ridden the K16, and decided it's not the bike for you. That's fine.

But when you get irritated by trivial things (30 seconds longer for the second oil drain plug) and then ignore all the advancements (significantly easier servicing), never mind all the power, handling, comfort, and gadgety improvements, then you're simply being stubborn.

Ride whatever you want, but your current arguments against the K16 really have no basis in reality . . .
 

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BMW is the only 1600, six cylinder that fits in the space of the inline 4 that I know of.:cool:
Exactly. What they did works, and the second oil plug really is just a triviality, unless you're simply looking for an excuse to denigrate the bike . . .
 

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Says you. :)

BMW has specifically addressed serviceability issues on the newer models. The K12/13GT was easier to service than the LT, and the K16 is easier still. Hëll, just getting the body panels off takes about half the time as the LT, and 90% of those screws are the same length, with none of those prone-to-failure rubber well nuts.

And the changes they've made are specifically related to increased performance, which is obvious to anyone who's ridden the bike (even you, from your previous ride report).

Look, you've ridden the K16, and decided it's not the bike for you. That's fine.

But when you get irritated by trivial things (30 seconds longer for the second oil drain plug) and then ignore all the advancements (significantly easier servicing), never mind all the power, handling, comfort, and gadgety improvements, then you're simply being stubborn.

Ride whatever you want, but your current arguments against the K16 really have no basis in reality . . .
I am not arguing against the K1600. I am continually amazed how people think a comment on one poor design element should be extrapolated to cover the entire machine. Rationalization is a powerful drug.

I never said the K1600 was a bad motorcycle. I said the oil drain plug design is stupid, and anyone who looks at it objectively will likely say something similar.

Sorry that it offends your sensibilities, but I am not a Kool-Aid drinker.

I ride an LT and it is my current favorite bike, but I don't defend the stupid design elements on the LT such as the inferior crankshaft o-ring and clutch slave cylinder design that are almost destined to spoil the clutch at some point way too early in the service life (mine didn't make it 30,000 miles). That is simply stupid design. It doesn't make the LT a bad motorcycle overall, but it is an inferior design element pure and simple.
 

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IBR# 366
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The second oil drain plug really is a triviality. Another 30 seconds while doing an oil change at most. And it's not something that's gonna fail and leave you stranded, or cost thousands of dollars to fix.

So you don't like that bit of design. OK, fine . . .

Meanwhile, the rest of us have long since moved past it and are out riding and enjoying the hëll out of these bikes . . . :bike:
 

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I think we're done here aren't we?

:deadhorse
 
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