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Discussion Starter #1
I seem to have a mysterious engine miss that has dropped my fuel milage down in to the mid thirties.

I have checked the valves, replaced the plugs and replaced the O2 sensor.
I regularly use injector cleaning, ethanol trapping fuel additives (Amsoil).

I do not see any visible damage to the plug wires, but have not run it in the dark to check for leakage.

Having missed last years riding due to a blown knee & subsequent replacement and knowing the other one will probably get done this winter, I really don't want to have to keep the LT down for more than a few hours this season.

I could really use some guru advice.
 

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I seem to have a mysterious engine miss that has dropped my fuel milage down in to the mid thirties.

I have checked the valves, replaced the plugs and replaced the O2 sensor.
I regularly use injector cleaning, ethanol trapping fuel additives (Amsoil).

I do not see any visible damage to the plug wires, but have not run it in the dark to check for leakage.

Having missed last years riding due to a blown knee & subsequent replacement and knowing the other one will probably get done this winter, I really don't want to have to keep the LT down for more than a few hours this season.

I could really use some guru advice.

3 important data items needed:
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1) What YEAR is the K1200LT ?

2) Do you have access to a GS911? O2 sensor replaced means nothing unless I can confirm a good signal ;-)

3) What other recent work done on bike since problem began - think of everything that was touched (plug caps pushed deeply to click good, fuel-filter , fuel hoses...)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
3 important data items needed:
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1) What YEAR is the K1200LT ? 2002

2) Do you have access to a GS911? O2 sensor replaced means nothing unless I can confirm a good signal ;-) Yes, I have one, just haven't messed with it much.

3) What other recent work done on bike since problem began - think of everything that was touched (plug caps pushed deeply to click good, fuel-filter , fuel hoses...) Fuel filter, hoses and QDs were all changed July of '13. Bike sat all last year. All new fluids, plugs, and O2 sensor this spring. I had a plug come loose and blow out a couple months ago, so went through and double checked all plug torques. I did have a couple of the terminal nuts come off with the wires, but I'm fairly certain I got everything back together tight.
I will double check the plug connections. I was going to open her up this weekend to check for spark leakage anyway.

I can hook the GS911 up after work today if you can tell me what to look at/write down for you.
 

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I will double check the plug connections. I was going to open her up this weekend to check for spark leakage anyway.

I can hook the GS911 up after work today if you can tell me what to look at/write down for you.
The GS911 can give you an "on screen" graph / plot of O2 sensor signal, however I prefer a full data log file with ALL parameters (TPS, RPM, Temp...). Because you are not reporting a cold-start hesitation, I would suggest to do the data logging with engine already warmed up (maybe after a short ride).

For a problem like yours, it would be even better to hook a small PC live with GS911 (PC hidden inside top case or side-case) and do the data logging live while riding. However, this is not always possible with some laptops that are more fragile or too big to fit. So a test on center-stand will be acceptable as a start...

PROCEDURE TO LOG DATA INTO A FILE:
There is so many variables from machine-to-machine that it is important for me to gather this data in same conditions to minimize variables.

(1) Install K1200LT on center stand (do not start until step 4 below)
(2) Plug GS911 into bike diagnostic plug, then into PC (if Yellow unit)

(3) Start software (will ask ignition ON) and go into menu "realtime values" + "Log to CSV" button. Use defaults for all items. Choose / type a filename or use the default filename offered.

(4) Start your K1200LT. AFTER about 1 minute of IDLING do occasional throttle twist to raise RPM to 2000 (4 to 5 seconds) and 4000 RPM (2-3 seconds). After these short RPM changes let it go back to idle for at least 30 secs in between.

(5) Stop "log-to file" on screen interface, then stop engine when you reach above half-way point on the temp gauge on dash -OR- at least a full log time of 4 minutes.

NOTE: It is IMPORTANT not to touch throttle during start as it should idle by itself. If it does not, then do what is required and let me know when you post the file here (as attachment).

See attached image for menu items in GS911 software. Screen may vary a bit depending on your software version.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I bought a small used HP laptop just for this after I found out my Windows Phone 8.1 is not compatible. I can hook it up, put it in the top-box and go for a ride, no problem. If the cord won't reach the top-box I can put the dog carrier on the pillion seat, it's well padded.

I have the red GS911. My understanding though is not all the functions work with the wireless connection. If what you need will work that way, I can do that.

If I take it for a ride is there a time limit, or is more better?

What is the best way to get the log file to you?
 

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also do a compression test, you have replaced the easy bits and not fixed it, did you run an ohm meter across the plug wires to check them,
 

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I bought a small used HP laptop just for this after I found out my Windows Phone 8.1 is not compatible. I can hook it up, put it in the top-box and go for a ride, no problem. If the cord won't reach the top-box I can put the dog carrier on the pillion seat, it's well padded.

I have the red GS911. My understanding though is not all the functions work with the wireless connection. If what you need will work that way, I can do that.

If I take it for a ride is there a time limit, or is more better?

What is the best way to get the log file to you?
1) I use the previous YELLOW version of GS911 with USB connection, So I am not 100% sure of the limitation of the new RED version with WIFI. I do remember reading on the HexCode web site that certain function could not be used in BlueTooth or WIFI. So I think it is safer to use USB mode (connector is still available on the RED unit).

2) Resulting file created by GS911 realtime data log has a ".CSV" extension. You can read it in EXCEL but need some conversion to fully use all data. Just post the file here as an attachment in your post and I will convert to more friendly readable ".XLS" format (with O2 data graph).
 

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It will not let you load a CSV file - just save it in excel as a .xls file and you can upload it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I had tried saving it as an Excel file, but it was the newer xlsx format. Had to go back to 2003 to get it to go.

It's funny that as a cvs it was 81k, as a xlsx it was 40 and as a xls it's 142.

let me know if this isn't adequate.

I did take it for a ride hooked up, but was trying to follow directions from memory, so I may not have done everything right.

Other than saving it as an xls file what needs to be done to decipher the data? It would be nice to be able to do it myself especially if I'm on the road and need to check something.

Thanks,
Keven
 

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I had tried saving it as an Excel file, but it was the newer xlsx format. Had to go back to 2003 to get it to go.

It's funny that as a cvs it was 81k, as a xlsx it was 40 and as a xls it's 142.

let me know if this isn't adequate.

I did take it for a ride hooked up, but was trying to follow directions from memory, so I may not have done everything right.

Other than saving it as an xls file what needs to be done to decipher the data? It would be nice to be able to do it myself especially if I'm on the road and need to check something.

Thanks,
Keven
Keven,

I always post as ".XLS" file on forums so was not aware that this forum would not accept ".CSV" as John said (Jzeiler).

The conversion from CSV to XLS does not happen when you just rename or change extension as internally it is basically a text file where each line is separated with CRLF (LineFeed) and each data column is separated with COMMA (hence the 3 letters extension Comma-Separated-Values). Depending on version of Excel, you would use the menu DATA and CONVERT to specify a Comma-Delimited format - following this you need to "Save AS" and use the XLS format of 1997-2003 (to be more compatible with user having old version of Excel).

BACK to YOUR DATA:
See attached file where I converted, added some feature to make it more readable and also added a Graph of O2 sensor at bottom of data.

Will have more time to study data relationship tonight, but right away I see O2 sensor showing extreme LEAN condition is certain section that are not normal. Each line is roughly at 0.8 sec intervalls (1st column is in millisec based on data sampling selected on GS911 screen).

If you are not familiar with Oxygen-sensor data, please have a look at this short tutorial on GS911 web site:
Lambda ? HEX Code


*** QUESTIONS:
1) to help data analysis, can you remember roughly how many "misses" or hesitations you felt during ride? Was it at constant RPM or during acceleration?

2) Was it really 100 deg F outside (air temp) when you did the ride ?

3) When you have time can you hook up GS911 (Ignition ON, but Engine OFF) to execute the menu Auto-Scan and save the data to a file (there is a menu option or button for this). This will give any fault codes and also the Motronic version yo have.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Keven,

I always post as ".XLS" file on forums so was not aware that this forum would not accept ".CSV" as John said (Jzeiler).

The conversion from CSV to XLS does not happen when you just rename or change extension as internally it is basically a text file where each line is separated with CRLF (LineFeed) and each data column is separated with COMMA (hence the 3 letters extension Comma-Separated-Values). Depending on version of Excel, you would use the menu DATA and CONVERT to specify a Comma-Delimited format - following this you need to "Save AS" and use the XLS format of 1997-2003 (to be more compatible with user having old version of Excel).

BACK to YOUR DATA:
See attached file where I converted, added some feature to make it more readable and also added a Graph of O2 sensor at bottom of data.

Will have more time to study data relationship tonight, but right away I see O2 sensor showing extreme LEAN condition is certain section that are not normal. Each line is roughly at 0.8 sec intervalls (1st column is in millisec based on data sampling selected on GS911 screen).

If you are not familiar with Oxygen-sensor data, please have a look at this short tutorial on GS911 web site:
Lambda ? HEX Code


*** QUESTIONS:
1) to help data analysis, can you remember roughly how many "misses" or hesitations you felt during ride? Was it at constant RPM or during acceleration? I don't, counting them hasn't even occured to me.

2) Was it really 100 deg F outside (air temp) when you did the ride ? Probaly more like 95.

3) When you have time can you hook up GS911 (Ignition ON, but Engine OFF) to execute the menu Auto-Scan and save the data to a file (there is a menu option or button for this). This will give any fault codes and also the Motronic version yo have. Yea, I can do that after work.
I have the computer in the top-box with me at work. I could hook it back up and get data on the ride home while trying to count misses and be more aware of when it's more noticeable. Check actual temp etc. anything else that could be helpful.

Thanks,
Keven
 

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I have the computer in the top-box with me at work. I could hook it back up and get data on the ride home while trying to count misses and be more aware of when it's more noticeable. Check actual temp etc. anything else that could be helpful.

Thanks,
Keven
For the moment, besides what was already asked in earlier post, should I assume it starts well HOT or COLD as you you have not mentioned this as being a problem ?

You should NOT need to touch throttle in either COLD or HOT start - it should fast-idle by itself when cold.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
For the moment, besides what was already asked in earlier post, should I assume it starts well HOT or COLD as you you have not mentioned this as being a problem ?

You should NOT need to touch throttle in either COLD or HOT start - it should fast-idle by itself when cold.
Yea it fires right up. A few times it has died right after starting but restarts easy. I don't really feel any loss of power. Acceleration right up to the rev limiter is smooth, enough torque to easily take off at 1100- 1200 rpm, I often don't even have to use the clutch when I come to a stop sign unless there is other traffic and I have to actually come to a complete stop.

The miss is very noticeable audibly, and the drop in gas mileage is troublesome.

You said the data showed a lean condition. could this be a bad injector?
 

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Yea it fires right up. A few times it has died right after starting but restarts easy. I don't really feel any loss of power. Acceleration right up to the rev limiter is smooth, enough torque to easily take off at 1100- 1200 rpm, I often don't even have to use the clutch when I come to a stop sign unless there is other traffic and I have to actually come to a complete stop.

The miss is very noticeable audibly, and the drop in gas mileage is troublesome.

You said the data showed a lean condition. could this be a bad injector?
Unless the O2 data is flat-lined (around 400 or 500 Millivolts) OR unless it stays very high or very low ALL the time, then we have to assume the cause is NOT the O2 sensor.
In your case, we have to keep in mind that a lean condition on O2 sensor (for certain period) is only the messenger (or symptoms) of something else being wrong.

So, fact we have an Engine miss, combined with higher fuel consumption would be 2 symptoms and the O2 lean sensor data is just one more data point. Motronic EFI may be trying to compensate for a lack of fuel reaching / coming-out of injectors.

In addition to not being on-site to see and ride it, we have other limitations to troubleshoot these K1200LT engine issues:
A) These Motronic are fairly old EFI technology designed in 1980-1990 and do not furnish as much data-points to GS911 as the newer EFI from BMW (newer means since 2005 in "frontal-4-cylinders", R1200 and K1600).

B) When Motronic compensates because of a lean or rich condition, we do not have access to compensation values used as you have on newer EFI (or ODBII on cars).

C) Because of above limitations in A-B, to avoid chasing too many possibilities, we have to use a combination of:
- how does it respond and "feel" in various conditions (hot, cold, accelerating...)
- has the fuel-mileage change lately
- what recent work may have cause a change
- what common issues exist on K1200LT engine that are common and probable causes

The GS911 data, plus your feedback is a starting point to avoid too many traps and too many "change this part", then more trial of "change this other part".... until you finally find the cause (process of elimination). Some dealer will make you a nice bill trying many things....

CONCLUSION: for the moment, with limited info I have from your post and GS911 data, I would guess the most probable causes would be, from easier to harder to test / fix:
1) Dirty Injectors: you said bike not used much, stored for a while, old gaz... so may need some fuel system cleaner like Sea-Foam / Techron and a very good high RPM ride to clear it up.

2) Intake air leaks (common on K1200 as they age and is covered in many treads here in forum - not easy to fix as many parts need to be removed to reach as-far-as under throttle-bodies)

3) Defective / shorting / damaged spark-plug wires (common issue with age and need a wet test in the dark to confirm - would cause engine misfire but not a lean condition)

4) One or more Defective injectors (we cannot get confirmation from GS911 or Motronic on this - the EFI system just use "injection time" as programmed expecting the injectors to work)

5) Intermittent or worn TPS (not common as this specific TPS from BOSCH has been very reliable on R1100/R1150 and K1200)
 

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An easy thing to do is pull plugs and post pic taken in sunlight, they should be an extremely light tan but there should be some color and all four should be the same. I do not see that has been done also ohm the wires as well as checking for leaks.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
K, there wasn't much gas in the tank while it sat. I only run Chevron gas in any of my vehicles so the Techron is there. I have run several tanks through since taking it out of storage. I also use Amsoil's motorcycle fuel additive to trap the ethanol and keep the system clean.

Possible that after sitting and then running new gas and additive it loosened up some crud that's plugging an injector?

I know I have some Sea Foam spray in the cabinet I'm not sure about liquid. there are several parts stores between home and work so it wouldn't be a problem to pick some up.
If I have some I'll put it in before I go to work in the morning; if not I'll pick some up after work tomorrow and ride for a while before going home.

I'll pull tupperware and the plug cover this weekend to check the wires and plug tip color.

When I changed the plugs there wasn't any visible damage to the wires, but they do look like they are original, so I'll order a new set.

Is there a simple home garage way to test the injectors?

We used to spray a little ether to find intake manifold leaks. Would that be safe for this engine to check for intake leaks?

That should about wipe out this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the help and ideas so far!
 

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You should wait and ohm the wires, at least see if one could be bad, they are around 6 ohms and they are quite expensive. If you shotgun it and it goes away you will not know what was actually wrong.
Plug color is a good way of pointing you in a direction.
 

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K, there wasn't much gas in the tank while it sat. I only run Chevron gas in any of my vehicles so the Techron is there. I have run several tanks through since taking it out of storage. I also use Amsoil's motorcycle fuel additive to trap the ethanol and keep the system clean.

Possible that after sitting and then running new gas and additive it loosened up some crud that's plugging an injector?

I know I have some Sea Foam spray in the cabinet I'm not sure about liquid. there are several parts stores between home and work so it wouldn't be a problem to pick some up.
If I have some I'll put it in before I go to work in the morning; if not I'll pick some up after work tomorrow and ride for a while before going home.

I'll pull tupperware and the plug cover this weekend to check the wires and plug tip color.

When I changed the plugs there wasn't any visible damage to the wires, but they do look like they are original, so I'll order a new set.

Is there a simple home garage way to test the injectors?

We used to spray a little ether to find intake manifold leaks. Would that be safe for this engine to check for intake leaks?

That should about wipe out this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the help and ideas so far!
If you still have the factory plug caps and high-tension wires, the specs are 5K Ohms for Caps and 1K Ohms for wire (total of 6K ohms from end-to-end). See attached photos...

Because of design, the wires will chaff and wear out inside cylinder head cavity over time. BMW should have used some protection over these wires as some cars have in similar conditions / design.

If needed, you can get a 3rd party replacement set from these guys at a very acceptable price:
EnDuraLast - BMW K1200 Ignition Cable
I have used this set on mine at 70,000 miles, so did many owners of K1200RS and K1200LT that I know. The set is not an exact match to the BMW OEM parts but it does the same job at a fraction of the BMW price.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
You should wait and ohm the wires, at least see if one could be bad, they are around 6 ohms and they are quite expensive. If you shotgun it and it goes away you will not know what was actually wrong.
Plug color is a good way of pointing you in a direction.
I plan on pulling them this weekend to; if nothing else see if it's just one cylinder or more. John (sailor) has looked at the GS911 data and determined that there is a lean condition. I can think of nothing in the ignition system that would cause a lean burn, so I'm sure I'll be messing with the fuel system this weekend.

The miss may be a result of the lean condition, but the way it's popping I think there must be an ignition problem of some sort as well, and the wires at 13 years old would be suspect.
As far as the cost; I have looked at the wires Sailor linked to as well as these. If it turns out the wires are bad even if I had to pay BMWs price it would pay for itself in returned gas mileage.
 
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