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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Guys

Can anyone help. I put my bike into a garage, not a dealership, to get the clutch changed on my K1200LT. I have got the bike back now but it idles at 800 RPM where as before it idled at 1000 RPM. I checked the CLYMER manual and it reckons it could be an air leak from somewhere. All the connections have been checked and nothing seems to be loose. With it idling at 800 the clutch seems to rattle and the reverse doesn't work, but if you hold the throttle at 1000 the rattle goes and the reverse works. When I ride it on the open road there is now difference to what it was before it responds to the throttle no problem.

I've taken off all the tupperware and when you look at all the injection system all screws and adjusters have still got a spot of blue paint on them (i suppose so they can check at the dealership if you've tampered with anything) but when i look at the throttle position sensor you can see that there is a mark where there was a spot of paint, but it's gone. Could that be the reason for the idle being wrong and if so how can i sort it.

Any help would be grateful.
 

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Hi Guys

Can anyone help. I put my bike into a garage, not a dealership, to get the clutch changed on my K1200LT. I have got the bike back now but it idles at 800 RPM where as before it idled at 1000 RPM. I checked the CLYMER manual and it reckons it could be an air leak from somewhere. All the connections have been checked and nothing seems to be loose. With it idling at 800 the clutch seems to rattle and the reverse doesn't work, but if you hold the throttle at 1000 the rattle goes and the reverse works. When I ride it on the open road there is now difference to what it was before it responds to the throttle no problem.

I've taken off all the tupperware and when you look at all the injection system all screws and adjusters have still got a spot of blue paint on them (i suppose so they can check at the dealership if you've tampered with anything) but when i look at the throttle position sensor you can see that there is a mark where there was a spot of paint, but it's gone. Could that be the reason for the idle being wrong and if so how can i sort it.

Any help would be grateful.
Kevin,
During last 4 years I have done a lot of testing and research on the Throttle-bodies, Idle-speed-control and TPS of these engines. I can tell you that there NO simple clear-cut answer for your problem when doing troubleshooting at a distance (without having bike in my garage).

HOWEVER, I know for a fact that WHEN these symptoms appear after major work was done on a k1200 (like a clutch job you had) there are often some common causes to investigate first. In order or most probable:

1) Something simple to try is to reset the learned parameter of BOSH-Motronic by removing the EFI fuse for 20 minutes of more (while igntion is off), Check your owners manual as the 1999-2004 do not have same fuse-box design as later models. Re-intall fuse (after 20 min or more), make sure the trottle is fully closed at idle stop BUT do not keep your hand on it, turn ignition ON, wait 8 seconds, start engine without touching throtlle. You may need to do a few rides before the idle fully stabilize as Motronic-EFI will relearn some parameters.

2) When everything was put back together after clutch job, it very common to have incorrect throttle-cables routing OR cable free-play adjustment. This will cause the throttle-bodies NOT to sit at real mechanical idle-stop. Hence, Bosh-Motonic EFI becomes confused by the TPS value at idle-stop. When this is adjusted back to normal, you should also do step 1 above to reset memory of Motronic unit before next ride. See CLYMER or BMW repair manual about cable free play adjust.


ANY intake air leaks caused by incorrect mounting of throtle-bodies OR incorrect connection of vacuum hoses would cause a high-idle condition in most cases, so this is not where I would concentrate my effort initially.
 

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Hi Guys

Can anyone help. I put my bike into a garage, not a dealership, to get the clutch changed on my K1200LT. I have got the bike back now but it idles at 800 RPM where as before it idled at 1000 RPM. I checked the CLYMER manual and it reckons it could be an air leak from somewhere. All the connections have been checked and nothing seems to be loose. With it idling at 800 the clutch seems to rattle and the reverse doesn't work, but if you hold the throttle at 1000 the rattle goes and the reverse works. When I ride it on the open road there is now difference to what it was before it responds to the throttle no problem.

I've taken off all the tupperware and when you look at all the injection system all screws and adjusters have still got a spot of blue paint on them (i suppose so they can check at the dealership if you've tampered with anything) but when i look at the throttle position sensor you can see that there is a mark where there was a spot of paint, but it's gone. Could that be the reason for the idle being wrong and if so how can i sort it.

Any help would be grateful.
Reverse does not work because most likely the voltage is too low as the bike idles low. BUT when you hit starter button the stepper motor should increase the idle if everything works as it should - does it do that?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Reverse does not work because most likely the voltage is too low as the bike idles low. BUT when you hit starter button the stepper motor should increase the idle if everything works as it should - does it do that?
Hi C-A-D

I tried John's idea of removing the EFI fuse for 20 mins or more this morning then ignition on and wait for 8 seconds then press the starter motor without touching the throttle but to no avail, it did not work.

My Stepper motor does not come on, if you press the starter it tries to start and dies immediately you have to hold the throttle on to get it to start. When it does start you have to hold the throttle on for about a minute before it will run without dyeing.

Kev
 

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Hi C-A-D

I tried John's idea of removing the EFI fuse for 20 mins or more this morning then ignition on and wait for 8 seconds then press the starter motor without touching the throttle but to no avail, it did not work.

My Stepper motor does not come on, if you press the starter it tries to start and dies immediately you have to hold the throttle on to get it to start. When it does start you have to hold the throttle on for about a minute before it will run without dyeing.

Kev
As mentioned earlier, Next step in troubleshooting would be to make sure the free-play of both throttle-cables is correct. Very probable the routing OR free-play was changed when everything was re-installed after clutch job. A lack of free-play can really mess up the Motronic setup about TPS at idle-stop.

Obviously, it would MUCH easier if you can find someone in your area with a GS911 to read any faults codes for the EFI system (engine). This would confirm if the EFI is seeing a Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) error OR an Idle-actuator error. There are ways around using the GS911 or the dealer's computer to troubleshoot this BUT it is really NOT easy to explain all steps at a distance.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
As mentioned earlier, Next step in troubleshooting would be to make sure the free-play of both throttle-cables is correct. Very probable the routing OR free-play was changed when everything was re-installed after clutch job. A lack of free-play can really mess up the Motronic setup about TPS at idle-stop.

Obviously, it would MUCH easier if you can find someone in your area with a GS911 to read any faults codes for the EFI system (engine). This would confirm if the EFI is seeing a Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) error OR an Idle-actuator error. There are ways around using the GS911 or the dealer's computer to troubleshoot this BUT it is really NOT easy to explain all steps at a distance.
I have found someone who can lend me a GS-911 so I can find out any codes and problems that may have been logged.
 

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It acts like the Idle actuator / stepper motor would be not working? Symptoms: Reverse won't engage, hard to start without throttle, needs warming up before idling. Perhaps that connector from harness to idle actuator is not connected or loose?
 

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It acts like the Idle actuator / stepper motor would be not working? Symptoms: Reverse won't engage, hard to start without throttle, needs warming up before idling. Perhaps that connector from harness to idle actuator is not connected or loose?
Good point - I agree this is a quite probable.
However I felt that instead of having him remove all fairings to check this, we might as well get any errors logged in system to get other "potential" causes as one big picture.
 

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I have found someone who can lend me a GS-911 so I can find out any codes and problems that may have been logged.
OK, depending how familiar the lending person is with GS911, the 1st step would be to run the "Autoscan" menu item that is visible in 1st page of PC/Windows interface. This menu item is NOT hidden under selection of bike models listed on left side of interface screen.

Once you have the Autoscan info on screen, you can save this into a file (menu or button offered in same interface screen). You may need to rename the file as a .TXT extension or convert to PDF before you post it here into a message. I am not in garage right now, but I do vaguely recall it was "Save As" an HTML format that will not be accepted into post here.

if you can, hold on to the GS911 for another day. Once I have the AutoScan report I may need added test where we log real-time data (engine runnning with bike on center-stand).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi Sailor

Sorry, forgot to mention, my bike is sitting in my garage just now in a state of undress. All the tupperware is off already.

I am in a BMW club here, they are the ones that are going to lend me the GS-911. Unfortunately it is with another member just now.

It was a member of the club that gave me the link to your site saying if I needed to know anything about LT's this was by far the best one to go to.

Kev
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hi Sailor, C-A-D

I have spoken to the mechanic that did my clutch and he says, to get to one of the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies to remove them he removed the black box from in front of it. So I'm guessing that is where I will focus my attentions first when I get the GS-911. He says he didn't disconnect the wiring but will check it anyway.

The CLYMER manual says not to remove it, will this cause big problems now.
 

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Hi Sailor, C-A-D

I have spoken to the mechanic that did my clutch and he says, to get to one of the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies to remove them he removed the black box from in front of it. So I'm guessing that is where I will focus my attentions first when I get the GS-911. He says he didn't disconnect the wiring but will check it anyway.

The CLYMER manual says not to remove it, will this cause big problems now.
Sorry but mechanics is not very clear or cannot communicate ;-)
There is nothing clear about: "the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies"
AND
talking about a "black box" without being able to specify WHAT:
1) is he trying to refer to Idle-Actuator (TVA)?: There are 3 torx screw right in front of you on left side. However, on K1200lT you need to remove the fuel-tank to see better aroud throttle-bodies as the fuel-tank goes fairly low on left side.

2) on the other hand, if he is trying to refer to Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) that is sitting at extreme back end of throttle-bodies, then obviously I agree that you cannot do much about it unless you remove the whole throttle-bodies. BUT... you should not need to touch or adjust TPS unless mechanics messed-up something, It is easy to force the TPS to move or rotate during a clutch job when engine is lowered (large wiring pulling from top AND the TPS may hit the back frame).

In any case, note that checking/removing the Idle-Actuator (TVA) is fairly easy. However removing the whole Throttle-bodies and reinstalling everything related properly requires a lot more time, patience and good mechanical skills. This is the reason why I insist first to get GS911 data so we can get a clue into a potential TVA or TPS faults. On the other hand, if problem is mechanical caused by clutch job (cables, linkage, Throttle-bodies, TVA bracket), then GS911 may not be able to tell much.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Sorry but mechanics is not very clear or cannot communicate ;-)
There is nothing clear about: "the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies"
AND
talking about a "black box" without being able to specify WHAT:
1) is he trying to refer to Idle-Actuator (TVA)?: There are 3 torx screw right in front of you on left side. However, on K1200lT you need to remove the fuel-tank to see better aroud throttle-bodies as the fuel-tank goes fairly low on left side.

2) on the other hand, if he is trying to refer to Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) that is sitting at extreme back end of throttle-bodies, then obviously I agree that you cannot do much about it unless you remove the whole throttle-bodies. BUT... you should not need to touch or adjust TPS unless mechanics messed-up something, It is easy to force the TPS to move or rotate during a clutch job when engine is lowered (large wiring pulling from top AND the TPS may hit the back frame).

In any case, note that checking/removing the Idle-Actuator (TVA) is fairly easy. However removing the whole Throttle-bodies and reinstalling everything related properly requires a lot more time, patience and good mechanical skills. This is the reason why I insist first to get GS911 data so we can get a clue into a potential TVA or TPS faults. On the other hand, if problem is mechanical caused by clutch job (cables, linkage, Throttle-bodies, TVA bracket), then GS911 may not be able to tell much.
I agree completely, I think he reckons I just ride the bike and have no idea, we'll just have to wait till i get the GS-911.

Kev
 

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I still go for faulty connection to TVA. He might have (for some reason) disconnected that during the clutch job. Or at least disconnected it when lowering engine and giving "room" for harness. I do not remember anymore from my clutch job did it have to come off when doing clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi C-A-D

I have taken the petrol tank off the bike and from what I can see you can tell the TVA has been removed as there is marks on the 3 Torx screws so I gather that this IS the black box he referred to. It looks like he has put everything back as it came off because one of the retaining clips that holds the air box to throttle body tops is in such a position that you would need to take the TVA off to loosen and remove the air box.

I have checked the TVA connection up inside the plug and checked the pins it connect to, there is no visual damage to them, re-connected the plug and heard it click into place, I've put the petrol tank back on and have started it but it still won't Idle properly. Still waiting to get the GS-911 so will keep everyone posted.
 

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Hi C-A-D

I have taken the petrol tank off the bike and from what I can see you can tell the TVA has been removed as there is marks on the 3 Torx screws so I gather that this IS the black box he referred to. It looks like he has put everything back as it came off because one of the retaining clips that holds the air box to throttle body tops is in such a position that you would need to take the TVA off to loosen and remove the air box.

I have checked the TVA connection up inside the plug and checked the pins it connect to, there is no visual damage to them, re-connected the plug and heard it click into place, I've put the petrol tank back on and have started it but it still won't Idle properly. Still waiting to get the GS-911 so will keep everyone posted.
Try following: Turn on the power. If TVA works OK you should hear sound from the stepper motor (that small black box on top of and in the middle of fuel rail) when it drives throttle to "starting position". And/or put your finger on that - you should feel it operate.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ok I shall try that and let you know sir.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Try following: Turn on the power. If TVA works OK you should hear sound from the stepper motor (that small black box on top of and in the middle of fuel rail) when it drives throttle to "starting position". And/or put your finger on that - you should feel it operate.
Hi C-A-D

I have checked the TVA to see if ti is working and it is. I have removed the air filter box and it moves to the same position every time so i take that to be the (Starting position). I also see there is an adjuster and lock nut resting on the (Pin) from the TVA. I have undone the locknut and turned the adjuster about 3/4 of a turn, when you start the bike now it starts without using the throttle and sits at 1000rpm after a couple of seconds.

Was that the right thing to do?.

Kev
 

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Hi C-A-D

I have checked the TVA to see if ti is working and it is. I have removed the air filter box and it moves to the same position every time so i take that to be the (Starting position). I also see there is an adjuster and lock nut resting on the (Pin) from the TVA. I have undone the locknut and turned the adjuster about 3/4 of a turn, when you start the bike now it starts without using the throttle and sits at 1000rpm after a couple of seconds.

Was that the right thing to do?.

Kev
Technically, this is not the right way to adjust TVA, HOWEVER you may have stumble by accident to a correct setting.
Let me explain why:
1) The TVA does not have a direct feedback mechanism to the Motronic-EFI. Instead, the Motronic uses the facts that every time the stepper-motor of TVA pushes forward (or goes backward), the Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) will be directly affected by a very precise amount (as throttle butterflies assy will rotate)

2) The TVA is attached to the Throttle-body-assy (TB) by a metal bracket. In some removal job (like your recent clutch job), some mechanic/owners have bent that bracket a small amount and this has caused the TVA to be out of normal tolerances (Max / Min travel of stepper motor).

3) Hence, it is always possible (but NOT very probable) that when you adjusted the screw on the arm that touches the TVA piston, you may have compensated for incorrect bracket position.

I would hold off to conclude all is solved until you have done the followings:
A) remove Motronic fuse for 20 minutes (with ignition OFF)
B) re-install fuse and make a few start / rides from various temp (cold and warm)
Above steps may take a few days to achieve the re-learning of Motronic AND testing of various conditions.

If you feel adventurous, you may like to test your TVA unit using the attached PDF document that I have created based on my experience.
 

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Hi C-A-D

I have checked the TVA to see if ti is working and it is. I have removed the air filter box and it moves to the same position every time so i take that to be the (Starting position). I also see there is an adjuster and lock nut resting on the (Pin) from the TVA. I have undone the locknut and turned the adjuster about 3/4 of a turn, when you start the bike now it starts without using the throttle and sits at 1000rpm after a couple of seconds.

Was that the right thing to do?.

Kev
To be absolutely honest. I really do not remember the exact construction of TVA and it's connection / joints to the throttle body. Never have had to mess with those. One thing one shouldn't do is to adjust the throttle body adjusters / lock nuts as they are factory-adjusted. BUT in the end - if the bike now operates as it should, fuel consumption is reasonable and no errors in GS911, guess everything is OK and you should congratulate yourself :)
 
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