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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
1918 days

4,400 dead troops
30,000 injured troops
84,910 – 92,614 confirmed civilian deaths (OBR estimate the total to be 1,033,000 - which would be bigger than the Rwanda Genocide or Cambodian Killing Fields)
$650bn

Worth it?

In business we have a measurement for this - ROI (return on investment).
So you have to have gained something tangible from your investment or have saved more than you would have normally spent if you had not made the investment.
If we even try to justify an investment with "well if we hadn't......" we had best have some very clear factual statistics - no guess work, to back our statement up with. And you certainly don't guess with the kind of statistics here.

Some interestin reading
 

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Add to the list.

27,500,000 FREE people.
-1 Dictator

It is now up to the Iraqis to decide how they want to live and run their country.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Can you really claim that these people are free when;

16% of households report that one of the people that used to live in their house is now dead due to the invasion/occupation/liberation
5% report that two members of their houshold have died
1% three members have died.
Almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member
Diyala (42%)
Ninewa (35%)
Of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees.

Would you call that freedom?
 

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highroamer said:
What has any of this to do with BMW's????
Nothing. That is why it's in the "Chit Chat" section.
 

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c00k1e said:
Would you call that freedom?
Unfortunately and tragically the cost of freedom is very high.

Depending on which estimates you use somewhere between 1-3% of Americans lost their lives to win their freedom during the American Revolution.

Another 2% lost their lives during the American Civil War.

According to Iraq Body Count which doesn't look like they are friends with the current administration the total civilian deaths are about 92,000. I'm not sure how many Iraq military deaths there have been.

92,000 is 0.3% of the population, it is terrible but freedom is never without pain.


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McAllister said:
Another example of knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing.
What a great saying!
+1 :cool:
 

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I work at the Hines VA. Tough seeing our women and men come back physically changed from this ... hard to put into words.
I've also been to Auschwitz. I'd rather not see that allowed again.
One human death isn't a tangible amount for any reason.
There's never any 100% right or wrong. On this earth, the human race isn't even close to "getting it". Sorry to say I still see mankind more in the dark ages than a cohesive entity.
Obviously, we'll sucomb to our demise like a fruitfly experiment before there's world peace.
Just my $0.02

Jer
 

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c00k1e said:
Can you really claim that these people are free when;

16% of households report that one of the people that used to live in their house is now dead due to the invasion/occupation/liberation
5% report that two members of their houshold have died
1% three members have died.
Almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member
Diyala (42%)
Ninewa (35%)
Of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees.

would you call that freedomQUOTE]

In the Iraq model, "freedom" really means is "free market."
 

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c00k1e said:
1918 days

4,400 dead troops
30,000 injured troops
84,910 – 92,614 confirmed civilian deaths (OBR estimate the total to be 1,033,000 - which would be bigger than the Rwanda Genocide or Cambodian Killing Fields)
$650bn

Worth it?

In business we have a measurement for this - ROI (return on investment).
So you have to have gained something tangible from your investment or have saved more than you would have normally spent if you had not made the investment.
If we even try to justify an investment with "well if we hadn't......" we had best have some very clear factual statistics - no guess work, to back our statement up with. And you certainly don't guess with the kind of statistics here.

Some interestin reading
Howdy c00k1e,

I'm pretty sure that trying to measure the validity of waging war by an analysis of ROI would give some objectional results; Had Hitler not declared war on the U.S. should the U.S. have stayed out of the European/African conflict because there wasn't any quantifiable return for the associated cost?

What about the British? Hitler wanted peace with the British after taking the rest of Europe, but they wouldn't go along. They paid a very high price to help liberate their fellow Europeans.

I would rationalize the war in Iraq along these lines; For the better part of the last 100 years the U.S. and Europe have treated the Middle East as a Colonial possession, either literally or, de facto. Not paying attention to them except to ensure the raw materials were kept available to us by passively, or actively, keeping stable and friendly rulers in power. Prior to 9/11, the U.S. wasn't in Afghanistan or Iraq and yet 3,000 people in the U.S. were murdered. Why did this happen?

When one attempts to answer the question as to the root cause of 9/11, the answer, or more accurately the actions required to prevent a future event, becomes apparent.

Regardless of the reasons for going into Iraq we did. Now we have a responsibility, desire even, to leave it in a condition that improves the region in terms of a political system. A country in which Shia, Sunni and Kurds share power and wealth rather that a country with a Sunni dictator that commits genocide by gassing the Kurds and ruthlessly oppresses the Shia.

There are now two democracies in the Middle East, Israel and Iraq.

I could go on about why I believe what we are doing in Iraq is good for the U.S., my children and future generations. However, it would be merely my opinion and I doubt I would change the opinions of those currently in opposition.


 

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Thats a kill ratio of 235 to 1 !! I 'll take those odds... Not bad at all..
Cookie, really keep that weird British bias on that side of the pond... We are quit happy killing radical Islamist who are trying to wipe us and YOU off the face of the earth......... Have a peaceful day......
 

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ROI. Lets see. The has been so tied up in Iraq and Afganistan, that the gold ole U S of A hasn't been attacked.
I know that you won't see it on the world wide Clinton News Network, but the serge is working. The Sunna, Shia and Kurds are working together to have something worth saving for the future. They are taking a stand against the warlords hoods that have been our biggest problem with IED's.
There have been attacks in London, Spain and Indoniesa and believe me there would be more if the stupid ones weren't blowing them selves up in the Middle East.

"We are the hollow men, the stuffed men, leaning together head piece filled with straw. Alas our dry voices when we whisper together are quite and meaningless. Like wind in dry grass, rats feet over broken glass in our dry c
cellar."T.S. Elliot

What we write here may not mean crap to the ones on control, but freedom of speech and the right to chose are things worth fighting for. U.S. Army 69-72
 

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Iraq 2003 - Terrorist count: 1 (well, Sadam's family and his army could be considered too, I suppose.)

Iraq 2008 - nobody can even guess how many are there, but its a lot more.

And now, no matter when we eventually leave, Iraq is going to be part of Iran.

On the whole, a worse result than Nam. Although I doubt that Iraq will be a tourist destination in 40 years.

"All wars are boyish, and are fought by boys." Herman Melville.
 
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