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If any of you want to learn more than TV sound bites (and without all the emotional/opinionated/political/divisive language the subject evokes) about the people and events that led up to this tragedy, this is an excellent book, written by a down-to-earth guy from Utah. It is chilling. After reading it a few years ago, I wondered when this sad but inevitable ending would occur. I thought it would be much worse.

In case the link to B&N doesn't work the book is Under the Banner of Heaven.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Under-the-Banner-of-Heaven/Jon-Krakauer/e/9781400032808/?itm=2
 

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Well, it ended this time, but with all the religious nut cases out there it won't be the last. Hey put the guys responsible for that in jail and let the inmates know that they have some new child molesters to play with.

Justice WILL be served.
 

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Unfortunately, a very similar raid was conducted in Arizona, and the results were a disaster. For the State. This was back in 1953 and the public outcry at police sweeping into town and breaking up mothers and children, brothers and sisters pretty much resulted in the 'don't ask, don't tell' attitude towards polygamy in AZ that let it flourish. If I understand it correctly the Texas group was an offshoot of the bunch from Northern AZ headed by Warren Jeffs.

One difference I see is that the earlier raids were to fight the evils of polygamy, and current efforts are targeting child abuse. The pictures of hymn signing mothers being hauled off to jail by police with automatic weapons isn't going to make the prosecutor's job any easier.
 

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MOSLEYDS said:
I hope the authorities stop making reference to religion, or polygamy and start referring to this group as nothing more than an organized group of pediphiles.
Are you referring to the Pope's visit or the compound in Texas? :D
 

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I don't have a problem with religion, or ploygamy for that matter, but this group in Texas is nothing more than a bunch of sexual perverts. I'm glad they have made the mistake of having some of the mothers talk to the media.
From these recent interviews, it's easy to see just how perverted this group is.
 

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Clarification....

CalLT said:
Are you referring to the Pope's visit or the compound in Texas? :D
Cal.. that's not correct, sir. The Pope has in the past, and continues to, address the problem....

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=87629 ---- Pope "Deeply Ashamed" of Priestly Abuse

http://www.ewtn.com/USPapalVisit08/index.asp for one source of the verbatim record...

http://www.uspapalvisit.org/ is another site...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For those interested, I paraphrase below..

On the plane ride to the US and in comments yesterday, Pope Benedict clearly stated that sexual abuse should never have been tolerated (a tolerance in large part due to the discovered individuals stating their repentance and being declared "healed" by the mental health community as well as threats of legal action by the homosexual agenda (ACLU, et al.)), and furthermore, shall be dealt with immediately so that anyone with these tendencies shall not be allowed in sacred ministry.

The Pope stated (I am still paraphrasing....) that the effort of discovering these "tendencies" shall begin before acceptance into "discernment" and be constantly evaluated through formation. Upon ordination, the process will continue and evolve as more is learned of this phenomenon of "pedophelia". He also stated that allegations must be addressed in an upfront manner as earlier Popes had demanded.

There is no way we can "undo" the past evil of the "Priest scandal"... but we should never forget the lessons of the past and put those lessons to good use in protecting children.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


There is no way we can "undo" the past evil of the "Texas compound" (unless you think the Waco-Branch Davidian's was the only acceptable way), if indeed there was "child abuse".

Just because you are raising your child different from what is "normal" by some "mental health" professionals' or government bureaucrat's standard, you are not necessarily committing an unconscionable sin. To some, sending their tender, precious children to the indoctrination camps of the Department of Education is a far worse fate.
 

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MOSLEYDS said:
I'm glad they have made the mistake of having some of the mothers talk to the media.
From these recent interviews, it's easy to see just how perverted this group is.
Don, do you have any links to these interviews? I'm interested to listen to / read them to get a better feel for the type of people they are.

So far all I've seen is that the men are still being forcibly detained within the compound, and the mothers have been sent back to be with them while the state moves to secure "legal" custody of the children. All the info I've seen so far has been VERY distraught mothers wanting to be with their children who are being sequestered from their families, physically and psychologically "examined by experts" and held against their will. As far as I know, there has not been ANY evidence of abuse presented by the state, nor has the alleged caller been identified, nor have there been any arrests made to date related to any abuse. I would say that given enough time and enough different "experts" involved, that sooner or later they are going to have to trump up something to charge someone with - don't forget what all of these people involved make their living off of...
As an interesting side note, I also read that the adults video-taped the Police raid to document what was happening - and those tapes have been confiscated by.... the Police.....
It's just plain scary to see a Constitutional violation of this magnitude happening and there being almost ZERO response from the Mainstream Media, or the public at large. :eek:
 

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KMC1 said:
Don, do you have any links to these interviews? I'm interested to listen to / read them to get a better feel for the type of people they are.

So far all I've seen is that the men are still being forcibly detained within the compound, and the mothers have been sent back to be with them while the state moves to secure "legal" custody of the children. All the info I've seen so far has been VERY distraught mothers wanting to be with their children who are being sequestered from their families, physically and psychologically "examined by experts" and held against their will. As far as I know, there has not been ANY evidence of abuse presented by the state, nor has the alleged caller been identified, nor have there been any arrests made to date related to any abuse. I would say that given enough time and enough different "experts" involved, that sooner or later they are going to have to trump up something to charge someone with - don't forget what all of these people involved make their living off of...
As an interesting side note, I also read that the adults video-taped the Police raid to document what was happening - and those tapes have been confiscated by.... the Police.....
It's just plain scary to see a Constitutional violation of this magnitude happening and there being almost ZERO response from the Mainstream Media, or the public at large. :eek:
Video of the mothers and children bording busses at the compound has been shown on the news, many times. It was orderly and did not show any mistreatment by authorities. It's going to be interesting to see how the court hearings go.
 

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MOSLEYDS said:
Video of the mothers and children bording busses at the compound has been shown on the news, many times. It was orderly and did not show any mistreatment by authorities. It's going to be interesting to see how the court hearings go.
That's right. As long as you do what you're told, everything will go orderly and you won't be shot. Where's the violence?

I don't know what the right way to handle parent's not raising their kids as we see fit. On the one hand, the child is almost helpless, and needs protection from abusive parents. On the other, who decides what's acceptable? Most could agree marrying daughters at 7 is bad, but what about 14? My daughter was way too immature to be married at 14 (she's 20 and still pretty immature, IMHO, but I'm old), but in some cultures, you're an adult at 14, and you've matured accordingly. A lot of what we think of as right and wrong is not absolute at all, but a cultural thing, and it's hard to let go of that.

I believe it's not right for people to force others to live by their values. Everyone has a right to live by their own values, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. That's the principle. How this affects the right to raise your children as you see fit, I'm not sure. It just doesn't seem possible to start down this road a little bit. We always take the 1st step with the noblest of intentions (not that this is the 1st step, of course), and end up being subjugated. "Think of the children" is the battle cry of every oppresive law, and I just don't know how to handle it.

But seeing the statement that there was no apparent mistreatment made me want to clarify the issue. Mistreatment is a subjective test. If they're really bad people, you might be able to justify shooting them, and that's not mistreatment. What's more definitive is whether force was used, and clearly there was, as any enforcement action must have.
 

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Bobnoxous said:
That's right. As long as you do what you're told, everything will go orderly and you won't be shot. Where's the violence?

I don't know what the right way to handle parent's not raising their kids as we see fit. On the one hand, the child is almost helpless, and needs protection from abusive parents. On the other, who decides what's acceptable? Most could agree marrying daughters at 7 is bad, but what about 14? My daughter was way too immature to be married at 14 (she's 20 and still pretty immature, IMHO, but I'm old), but in some cultures, you're an adult at 14, and you've matured accordingly. A lot of what we think of as right and wrong is not absolute at all, but a cultural thing, and it's hard to let go of that.

I believe it's not right for people to force others to live by their values. Everyone has a right to live by their own values, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. That's the principle. How this affects the right to raise your children as you see fit, I'm not sure. It just doesn't seem possible to start down this road a little bit. We always take the 1st step with the noblest of intentions (not that this is the 1st step, of course), and end up being subjugated. "Think of the children" is the battle cry of every oppresive law, and I just don't know how to handle it.

But seeing the statement that there was no apparent mistreatment made me want to clarify the issue. Mistreatment is a subjective test. If they're really bad people, you might be able to justify shooting them, and that's not mistreatment. What's more definitive is whether force was used, and clearly there was, as any enforcement action must have.
EXCELLENT post. I agree 100 percent.

Consider the view those outside the U.S. have of OUR parenting. We dose kids with sugar and caffeine, to the point that they are obese and suffering from attention deficit. Plop them in front of TV where they are exposed to hours of unsupervised sex and violence. Let them fend for themselves in a substandard education system ... heaven forbid we'd every take an active role in their learning and moral development.

And then we send in SWAT when someone tries something different.

I agree fully that sexual exploitation should be universally banned. But I also get the feeling that is not what is at the root of this particular police raid.
 

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I doubt this cult was forced to move to Texas. By moving to Texas, they have put themselves in a position to come under the laws of Texas. It apparently is illegal in Texas to marry or have sex with a child under the age of 14 or 15. It is also illegal to have multible spouses at one time. These laws came about by a democratic process. Not by the decree of, say, a dictator. You seem to have forgotten that the government in Texas, or any other state in The United States is the people of that state, not some seperate entity.

Also, how can someone compare giving your 14 year old daughter a coke to
giving her to a 50 year old man to have sex with along with his 3 other 14 year old wives.
 

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MOSLEYDS said:
I doubt this cult was forced to move to Texas. By moving to Texas, they have put themselves in a position to come under the laws of Texas. It apparently is illegal in Texas to marry or have sex with a child under the age of 14 or 15. It is also illegal to have multible spouses at one time. These laws came about by a democratic process. Not by the decree of, say, a dictator. You seem to have forgotten that the government in Texas, or any other state in The United States is the people of that state, not some seperate entity.

Also, how can someone compare giving your 14 year old daughter a coke to
giving her to a 50 year old man to have sex with along with his 3 other 14 year old wives.
Ah, yes, the legitimacy of democracy. Being violent against others is okay if you vote for it.

This is getting off the topic of this thread, but since you bring it up, we're partially a democracy, and partially a republic. We democratically elect the politicians, but we don't democratically vote on the laws they pass, not that I think it would be much better if we did.

If my neighbors and I vote to use my neighbors car so we can use it to carpool to work, a noble cause, and that passes (my neighbor was the only one who voted against it for some reason, even though he's quite welcome to ride with us), then it's not theft, right? It's a democracy. If he resists, we're going to hire some muscle to enforce this new law that the democracy has demanded.

I know, I know, wrap the legal fiction of a government around the vote, and now it's not theft. Somehow, there's something magical about the idea of government that converts theft, oppression, violence, etc., to a noble will of the people, no matter what the people will. I wish I could bottle that.
 

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Hey,
Like I said, if you live here, you by default, agree to abide by the law. Of course, you always have the right under the 2nd amedment to take your gun and try to set things right as you see it. I'm sure you'll die trying, but you have the right to try.
 

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MOSLEYDS said:
Hey,
Like I said, if you live here, you by default, agree to abide by the law. Of course, you always have the right under the 2nd amedment to take your gun and try to set things right as you see it. I'm sure you'll die trying, but you have the right to try.
I don't agree to abide by bad laws, only laws that I believe are just. And, I'm still living here. Bad laws get fixed because people disobey them. Sheep never change anything.

A lot of times I hear, when someone seems unable to justify their position logically I think, the standard "If you don't like it you can go somewhere else". Or, I can stay here and try to change things for the better, as I see it, the same way others try to do. Someday, I may decide to leave for greener pastures, but I feel a duty to people in this country to try and fix some of the wrongs that are happening to people around me. I don't plan to use the gun to do it. The government cannot really do much of anything very well, but force is the one thing they do seem able to do quite well. That's not an effective weapon.

I simply try and undo some of the programming that people have gone through; to make them question some of the things that they've never thought critically about before; things they accept blindly, and see if they're not being just a wee bit hypocritical. And when laws are passed that try to prevent me from doing this (corrupting our poor little children's minds, you know, with talk of freedom and agreements over violence, crazy things), I will break them. I have to be true to my beliefs.

But, some people absolutely do believe in might makes right, and while I think they're violent people, at least they're not hypocritical.
 

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Bobnoxous said:
I don't agree to abide by bad laws, only laws that I believe are just. And, I'm still living here. Bad laws get fixed because people disobey them. Sheep never change anything.

A lot of times I hear, when someone seems unable to justify their position logically I think, the standard "If you don't like it you can go somewhere else". Or, I can stay here and try to change things for the better, as I see it, the same way others try to do. Someday, I may decide to leave for greener pastures, but I feel a duty to people in this country to try and fix some of the wrongs that are happening to people around me. I don't plan to use the gun to do it. The government cannot really do much of anything very well, but force is the one thing they do seem able to do quite well. That's not an effective weapon.

I simply try and undo some of the programming that people have gone through; to make them question some of the things that they've never thought critically about before; things they accept blindly, and see if they're not being just a wee bit hypocritical. And when laws are passed that try to prevent me from doing this (corrupting our poor little children's minds, you know, with talk of freedom and agreements over violence, crazy things), I will break them. I have to be true to my beliefs.

But, some people absolutely do believe in might makes right, and while I think they're violent people, at least they're not hypocritical.
Do you really think that a law preventing a 50 year old man from collecting 14 year old "wives". is bad? Or a law protecting 14 year old females from grown men who think they have God's blessing to rape them is a bad law?

Are you a registered sex offender, or did you just not bother as you thouught that was a bad law too?
 

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MOSLEYDS said:
Do you really think that a law preventing a 50 year old man from collecting 14 year old "wives". is bad? Or a law protecting 14 year old females from grown men who think they have God's blessing to rape them is a bad law?

Are you a registered sex offender, or did you just not bother as you thouught that was a bad law too?
Yes, Don. That's exactly what I said. You cut through all my fluffy obfuscations and get right to the point. Good on ya.

Admins, please post a sign on my profile identifying me as an unregistered sex offender, and please keep your kids away. Give me a break.

At least the thread is moving back to the topic of the polygamist story (I won't even touch what I think about polygamy laws).
 
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