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I can't PM you until you have 15 post so keep posting.
I think I am past it now, thanks in advance for your time, Saddleman. I will see if PM is now working
 
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Greetings, shout out for Saddleman who was kind enough to speak with me through PM. The Service MGR at the BMW shop and the mechanic who has worked on my former R and the current RT multiple times in the past four years said the FD oil was almost pure as the driven rain, lol...actually he said it was a little darker than karo syrup and there were no leavings at all and just some very tiny amounts of fuzz. I am leaning toward trying to get it and do some maintenance on the other fluids as well as probably the rubber brake lines although those did not look weather-cracked and felt pretty springy. Spiegler kit for me I think. Thank you for all the great opinions. I will let you know in the next couple of days how it goes. Saddleman gave me a tip that after riding it on the Interstate for a while I should touch the FD and if my hand can stay on it without discomfort (my word) it is probably shimmed pretty good. I realize there are no guarantees with these FDs but grateful for the tip anyway :).
 
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Greetings, shout out for Saddleman who was kind enough to speak with me through PM. The Service MGR at the BMW shop and the mechanic who has worked on my former R and the current RT multiple times in the past four years said the FD oil was almost pure as the driven rain, lol...actually he said it was a little darker than karo syrup and there were no leavings at all and just some very tiny amounts of fuzz. I am leaning toward trying to get it and do some maintenance on the other fluids as well as probably the rubber brake lines although those did not look weather-cracked and felt pretty springy. Spiegler kit for me I think. Thank you for all the great opinions. I will let you know in the next couple of days how it goes. Saddleman gave me a tip that after riding it on the Interstate for a while I should touch the FD and if my hand can stay on it without discomfort (my word) it is probably shimmed pretty good. I realize there are no guarantees with these FDs but grateful for the tip anyway :).
Rick, if the lines are spongy, I would not take that as a good sign. They deteriorate from the inside out so they can look great but still be crap waiting to fail when you need them most. Just another tip.
 
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Rick, if the lines are spongy, I would not take that as a good sign. They deteriorate from the inside out so they can look great but still be crap waiting to fail when you need them most. Just another tip.
I grok, I'm going to order the Spiegler kit as soon as I get it. I did learn something else of potential substance, though...while they were looking over the throttle cable which they ultimately figured out needed a little lube I guess up by the top portion, Kelly the Service MGR looked up a replacement...apparently they now have some type of retrofit kit that has to go in in some very tedious manner that costs about 400 bucks and takes a couple hours to put together...jeez, getting old usually is not good, lol. :surprise:
 

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I grok, I'm going to order the Spiegler kit as soon as I get it. I did learn something else of potential substance, though...while they were looking over the throttle cable which they ultimately figured out needed a little lube I guess up by the top portion, Kelly the Service MGR looked up a replacement...apparently they now have some type of retrofit kit that has to go in in some very tedious manner that costs about 400 bucks and takes a couple hours to put together...jeez, getting old usually is not good, lol. :surprise:

Yes, there is a retrofit kit for the stiff throttle some of the early LT's had an issue with. It requires cutting some part in that assembly to get all the new pieces to install right. Pics below to know if you have the new already on the left or old on the right.
 

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I'm looking at a couple 2006 LT's.

I think I know what you mean by "2006 model year is pretty well past the "bloom" of final drive failures.", but I want to make sure I do.

Thanks for your time.
 

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2005 K1200LT
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Several of "us" here, after looking at more than 180 rear drive failures that were rebuilt, came to the conclusion that it was over shimming at the factory that caused the failures and we saw less as the model year of the bike increased. I believe the later model bikes are pretty well immune to the over shimming failures as they improved the assembly processes at the factory. That is not to say it cannot happen, but very unlikely. Best insurance is to always change the rear drive oil when ever you change the engine oil and inspect the drain magnet and look at the oil. That way if one of the modes of failure it starting you can catch it early enough and repair for the least cost.
 

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Too bad BMW can not be held accountable for ‘out of spec’ tolerances on a new bike. If it can be proven they made the error, which eventually caused the failure, warranty expiration should not even be considered !
 

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Too bad BMW can not be held accountable for ‘out of spec’ tolerances on a new bike. If it can be proven they made the error, which eventually caused the failure, warranty expiration should not even be considered !
It is not out of spec tolerances on a new bike but rather assembly errors by people that probably no longer work at the factory since it has been out of production for over 12 years.
 
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Much discussion and speculation about what indicators might be useful for predicting final drive failure.

I continue to try and understand the progression of the "classic" crownwheel bearing failure in our beloved K1200LT. I have now done about 50 final drive rebuilds, both repairs of various types of failures, (the most common being the "classic" crownwheel bearing failure) and a number of preemptive rebuilds. In several of the "preemptive" rebuilds the owner had become suspicious of dark gear lube, increasing grey metal fuzz on the drain plug magnet, and in more advanced cases, weeping of lube at the hub seal.

I have noted in past preemptive rebuilds that in many cases the outer race of the crownwheel bearing is wallowed out. More recently I have seen cases of where the hub seal had started to leak without other signs of catastrophic failure. In these cases, the crownwheel bearing outer race was severely wallowed to the point where one side of the groove had developed a very sharp edge. In the attached picture, I am trying to demonstrate how sharp the edge of the groove gets by shaving a finger nail on the edge of the groove. In this particular race there is also significant pitting, but in some cases the groove is smooth with out any pitting, but the groove is widened and very sharp on one side.

The only other signs of a possible problem other than weeping at the hub seal was dark gear lube and lots of fine fuzzy metal on the drain plug magnet.

Previously, I had maintained that grey fuzz on the drain plug was "normal" and shiney metal flakes were bad. Now it seems that grey fuzz maybe normal but may also be associated with wearing of the race without pitting. Metal flakes are definitely associated with pitting of the races.

In no case that I am aware of a "wiggle test" or "shake the wheel test" indicating a failing final drive. My suggestion is that if you are trying to find an indication of final drive failure, checking the rear wheel for wiggle is a waste of time. Even when the races of the crownwheel bearing was wallowed out enough to cause weeping of oil at the hub seal, there have been no reports of detectable wiggle at the wheel; the looseness is apparently too subtle for the human hand to detect.

Conclusions so far:
  • Shiney metal flakes in the gear lube indicate near term final drive failure.
  • Dark colored gear lube, especially when previous lube changes have been lighter in color, indicates a problem. This suggests that using the same type/color gear lube and keeping to regular lube change intervals may be helpful in identifying increasingly dark lube. (Please DO NOT start an oil thread here.)
  • Increasing grey metal fuzz on the drain magnet may indicate a problem. Again, keeping to a reqular interval of changing lube will help identify increasing amounts of grey fuzz on the drain plug. Increasing amounts of grey fuzz is a bad sign.
  • The "shake the wheel" test is basically useless in checking for final drive problems. By all accounts, by the time you can feel the wheel move during a "shake the wheel" test, the hub seal will have already puked out the lube. (The shake the wheel test is a valid check for pivot bearing and other swing arm related problems.)

Based on my increasing understanding of the progression of failure of the crownwheel bearing, I would never suggest just changing the hub seal in a case where weeping at the seal is occuring. Too often there is an underlying cause of the leak that is related to the crownwheel bearing.
Much discussion and speculation about what indicators might be useful for predicting final drive failure.

I continue to try and understand the progression of the "classic" crownwheel bearing failure in our beloved K1200LT. I have now done about 50 final drive rebuilds, both repairs of various types of failures, (the most common being the "classic" crownwheel bearing failure) and a number of preemptive rebuilds. In several of the "preemptive" rebuilds the owner had become suspicious of dark gear lube, increasing grey metal fuzz on the drain plug magnet, and in more advanced cases, weeping of lube at the hub seal.

I have noted in past preemptive rebuilds that in many cases the outer race of the crownwheel bearing is wallowed out. More recently I have seen cases of where the hub seal had started to leak without other signs of catastrophic failure. In these cases, the crownwheel bearing outer race was severely wallowed to the point where one side of the groove had developed a very sharp edge. In the attached picture, I am trying to demonstrate how sharp the edge of the groove gets by shaving a finger nail on the edge of the groove. In this particular race there is also significant pitting, but in some cases the groove is smooth with out any pitting, but the groove is widened and very sharp on one side.

The only other signs of a possible problem other than weeping at the hub seal was dark gear lube and lots of fine fuzzy metal on the drain plug magnet.

Previously, I had maintained that grey fuzz on the drain plug was "normal" and shiney metal flakes were bad. Now it seems that grey fuzz maybe normal but may also be associated with wearing of the race without pitting. Metal flakes are definitely associated with pitting of the races.

In no case that I am aware of a "wiggle test" or "shake the wheel test" indicating a failing final drive. My suggestion is that if you are trying to find an indication of final drive failure, checking the rear wheel for wiggle is a waste of time. Even when the races of the crownwheel bearing was wallowed out enough to cause weeping of oil at the hub seal, there have been no reports of detectable wiggle at the wheel; the looseness is apparently too subtle for the human hand to detect.

Conclusions so far:
  • Shiney metal flakes in the gear lube indicate near term final drive failure.
  • Dark colored gear lube, especially when previous lube changes have been lighter in color, indicates a problem. This suggests that using the same type/color gear lube and keeping to regular lube change intervals may be helpful in identifying increasingly dark lube. (Please DO NOT start an oil thread here.)
  • Increasing grey metal fuzz on the drain magnet may indicate a problem. Again, keeping to a reqular interval of changing lube will help identify increasing amounts of grey fuzz on the drain plug. Increasing amounts of grey fuzz is a bad sign.
  • The "shake the wheel" test is basically useless in checking for final drive problems. By all accounts, by the time you can feel the wheel move during a "shake the wheel" test, the hub seal will have already puked out the lube. (The shake the wheel test is a valid check for pivot bearing and other swing arm related problems.)

Based on my increasing understanding of the progression of failure of the crownwheel bearing, I would never suggest just changing the hub seal in a case where weeping at the seal is occuring. Too often there is an underlying cause of the leak that is related to the crownwheel bearing.
170463
I was reading this last night at work, got home this morning and look whats leaking out my FD. Ugh can't catch a break with this thing!
 

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I would drain the oil and inspect the magnet. If no shiny bits it could just be a seal failure. There have been seal failures that were not due to a failed bearing. Of course do the wiggle test as well.
 

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I would drain the oil and inspect the magnet. If no shiny bits it could just be a seal failure. There have been seal failures that were not due to a failed bearing. Of course do the wiggle test as well.
I went for a run to relieve some tension, I will check it out here shortly! Thx
 

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I went for a run to relieve some tension, I will check it out here shortly! Thx
Drained the oil, no metal shavings, no wiggle in wheel. The oil leaking out is much cleaner than oil i Drained from FD. Pulled back boot on swing arm side and its dry.
 

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Maybe an oil dog marked his territory? Is it actually coming from the drive or some where above it? Pull the wheel off to be sure.
 

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I had to get to bed, work nights, I'll look for more in morning!
Maybe an oil dog marked his territory? Is it actually coming from the drive or some where above it? Pull the wheel off to be sure.
Well it wasn't FD, My Spiegler brake lines I installed was rubbing on back tire. Wow I'm a idiot, didn't pull enough of the slack down towards the caliper or had wrong bend in line. Lesson learned, now I hope I can just order that pc instead of another set.
170487
 

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Just glad it was NOT the drive. Call Speigler they may feel sorry for you and send you a new line. And make sure you wash down any painted surfaces with plenty of water or it will strip the paint.
 
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