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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.
 

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Coot said:
Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.
How about this:

Take the bike to Lone Star BMW in Austin, have them install the latest style bearings and you should be good to go for quite a while. I, or one of the other Houston folks here might even volunteer a ride back. Or, you are welcome to use my trailer. Also, would not mess around with any of the miracle lubricants but use the BMW or a similar brand gear oil and just go and ride...
 

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It sounds to me like you just worry too much about the final drive problem. I don't worry about it all. Neither on my '96 RT or my '06 LT. If it happens, then I will take care of it. But until it happens, or until there is any definitive evidice of it happening (like metal flakes in the FD fluid), it's not a concern.

Most of the failure issues I see on this board are blown way out of proportion. I understand that a small group of people have had problems. And in some instances they have not been taken care of the way they feel the problem should have been. So I understand their animosity and fear of potential future failures.

My view on that is simple. If you worry that much about it, then sell it and buy what makes you happy.
 

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Sounds to me like it really doesn't matter what is done to it for you. Maybe you should just get rid of it now if you feel that bad about it and buy a wing or something else..

It doesn't seem to me like you have anything to complain about. You have received good service from your bike and have had no problems.. If you are worried about it to the point that you won't ride it the way it was intended to be ridden, don't keep it.

One thing though, please don't come to the forum and wine about something you have nothing to wine about... I don't quite understand what you hope to accomplish by doing this. Maybe you can convince us all to sell ours also... Nahhh.. Don't think so. I love mine and I will keep it.

I have never had a problem with the final drive, will continue to check the fluid and replace it at 3K intervals and address it if it becomes a problem.
 

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Some of us worry about the final drive failing and some don't. Hey Coot, I won't beat up on you. The final drive has failed twice on my 1999, leaving me stranded on long trips that I waited and planned for a couple years in advance. And I too changed the oil every 3K religiously. My 1984 Yamaha Venture still has it's original FD after 24 years and over 120K miles. I don't think discussion on it here is overblown in my opinion. Many owners are frustrated with this problem. They love the bikes (I love mine), but it's a shame that BMW ignores the problem and more importantly, the owners. I do like just about everything else about the bike and I do enjoy riding it, but I also do worry about it failing again. My dad who is 68 yrs old and still riding wants to take a cross country trip this season with my brother and I. It will likely be his last. In all honesty, I don't want to take the chance of riding the BMW and spoiling the trip. My local dealer even says that everything looks great with the drive, but it could still fail. The dealer has little confidence in it either. So ease up on Coot I think.
 

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I certainly cannot argue against fear of the unknown, but this statement bothers me:
Lumpy said:
My local dealer even says that everything looks great with the drive, but it could still fail. The dealer has little confidence in it either.
I think it would be irrational to look at a rear drive and state unequivocally that it will not fail, but I am very surprised that your dealer "has little confidence in it either". If they really feel that way, perhaps the bearing should be replaced. Dealers know the reality of the failure rate and know that in all reality it is if and not when for rear drive failures. The dealer I use has a fairly good frame of reference within the bikes they have sold. While there have been some failures, it has been a fairly small number. The last time we spoke about it, they have never seen a second failure in any bearing they have replaced.

I have ridden for 100,000 miles on three LTs, with only one roadside failure - a delaminated tire leaving me stuck in eastern Colorado. Sitting at a picnic table for 8 hours, waiting for one of my employees to run a tire out to us, gave Michelle and me a chance to just sit and talk, without any distraction. We worked out some plans for change in our household and in my business that have made a real difference in our lives. It was a really great afternoon.

My GS suffered ring antenna failure last summer in the Yukon Territory, leaving me bikeless for 7 days. I knew before I left that there were a fair number of failures of these devices on GS models recently, but I really couldn't come up with any proactive course of action that would mitigate that risk. While I was initially disappointed that I experienced that failure, there were so many positive things that I experienced due to the change in my plans, I am actually glad it happened. Every ride we go out on is an adventure into the unknown and my goal is to turn everything that we encounter on the adventure into a new opportunity. For Michelle and me, 'the journey is the destination' rings very true.

I will say that if worrying about a failure that might happen dominated my thoughts, I would probably change rides.
 

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I'm not trying to bash on Coot, but I think that worring about something you can't control is not the right thing to do. Worry about the things you can change and forget about what you can't. Stress kills. Beleive me ... I know. I'm only 47 and have had a minor (thankfully) heart attack, quad heart bypass, kidney failure, kidny transplant, and a lens replacement. Stress is not a good idea. Worring about stuff liek this is not a good idea either.

If Coot truthfully lacks confidence in his motorcycle then he should sell it and move on to something that inspires him. Plain and simple. It's better to stop worring about it and move on to something that will give him hours/days/weeks/months/years of enjoyment.

I personally do not worry about any of these types of things. If it happens, I deal with it and move on. But I am also a happy person. Every day. It takes a lot to really bring me down.
 

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ArthurKnowles said:
I'm not trying to bash on Coot, but I think that worring about something you can't control is not the right thing to do. Worry about the things you can change and forget about what you can't. Stress kills. Beleive me ... I know. I'm only 47 and have had a minor (thankfully) heart attack, quad heart bypass, kidney failure, kidny transplant, and a lens replacement. Stress is not a good idea. Worring about stuff liek this is not a good idea either.

If Coot truthfully lacks confidence in his motorcycle then he should sell it and move on to something that inspires him. Plain and simple. It's better to stop worring about it and move on to something that will give him hours/days/weeks/months/years of enjoyment.

I personally do not worry about any of these types of things. If it happens, I deal with it and move on. But I am also a happy person. Every day. It takes a lot to really bring me down.
Exactly! Life's too short. The only reason to change bikes is simply 'cuz you want something different. I bought my LT for "practical" reasons (two-up riding) but I can't think of anything more impractical than touring on a motorcycle. But that's what makes it fun and an adventure, you think more about your destinations and the roads you want to take. MC road trips are by far the most memorable (Although I did drive from Denver to Galveston in a 1974 VW Thing once. I won't soon forget that!). Mechanical failure is just one more adventurous aspect. As long as it doesn't leave you in a dangerous situation, take it in stride.

If you want reliability, buy a Toyota or Honda car.
 

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Randy said:
I certainly cannot argue against fear of the unknown, but this statement bothers me:I think it would be irrational to look at a rear drive and state unequivocally that it will not fail, but I am very surprised that your dealer "has little confidence in it either". If they really feel that way, perhaps the bearing should be replaced. Dealers know the reality of the failure rate and know that in all reality it is if and not when for rear drive failures. The dealer I use has a fairly good frame of reference within the bikes they have sold. While there have been some failures, it has been a fairly small number. The last time we spoke about it, they have never seen a second failure in any bearing they have replaced.

I have ridden for 100,000 miles on three LTs, with only one roadside failure - a delaminated tire leaving me stuck in eastern Colorado. Sitting at a picnic table for 8 hours, waiting for one of my employees to run a tire out to us, gave Michelle and me a chance to just sit and talk, without any distraction. We worked out some plans for change in our household and in my business that have made a real difference in our lives. It was a really great afternoon.

My GS suffered ring antenna failure last summer in the Yukon Territory, leaving me bikeless for 7 days. I knew before I left that there were a fair number of failures of these devices on GS models recently, but I really couldn't come up with any proactive course of action that would mitigate that risk. While I was initially disappointed that I experienced that failure, there were so many positive things that I experienced due to the change in my plans, I am actually glad it happened. Every ride we go out on is an adventure into the unknown and my goal is to turn everything that we encounter on the adventure into a new opportunity. For Michelle and me, 'the journey is the destination' rings very true.

I will say that if worrying about a failure that might happen dominated my thoughts, I would probably change rides.
I'm with Randy, after owning BMW's for over 36 years I've had very few roadside issues that couldn't be dealt with on the spot. If my drive fails, it fails. I'm not too concerned. Now I have to admit, if that stupid antenna ring on my RT goes bad and the EWS security system leaves me stranded, I will be pissed that a security device I can't bypass messed up my ride plans but I'm not going to lose sleep worrying about it. As Randy said, the failure may lead to an adventure you would have otherwise missed. When my charging system failed on my R100 GSPD I ended up having a great day in Regina, Canada. I had no idea what a great city Regina is and how much history is there. Had the bike not had issues I would have flown past without so much as a fuel stop. I actually am glad it happened.
 

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I just moved from a Goldwing. I loved the 'Wings and never had a problem. But, if you read the forums, the frames crack, they overheat, the rear drives wear out, the front end wobbles, the forks sag, the anti-dive circuit in the left fork siezes and the fork gets rigid, the rear shock sucks, the seat sucks, the tires cup, the cruise control needs fixing, the speedometer is wrong, the alternator vibrates, the wheels are uncoated and corrode, etc. etc. etc.

We drive cars all the time and risk flat tires, brakes failing, cracked windshields, etc.

We get up in the morning and risk heart attacks, car accidents, storms, violence, etc.

Life is dangerous!

After owning three of them, I would never say don't get a 'wing, but, If you like your LT, do preventative repairs to the rear drive, and it will cost you thousands less than moving to a 'Wing.
 

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the LT. I owned 3 GW's previously myself and I totally prefer the LT over them all. Yet I was told by a dealer tech that the bearing races he's seen on many failed final drives fell apart for reasons they could not determine. Personally speaking, I feel that two failures in my 68k miles is too many. It's super that many owners have not had to experience these failures on the road. But some of us have and I, for one, would appreciate knowing what goes awry with the bearing so that I can ride and enjoy the LT even more. Now, wouldn't anyone here want to know more if this had been your experience? Be honest, of course you would. But unless there is discussion on the failures, how else can we learn about them? And maybe it seems like a dead horse to most. But to others it's not. I signed on to the BMW community a year ago and before that I didn't even know there were other failures. Sure, things break all the time. Bikes break down. But more times than not you can relate the cause to something. In the case of the final drive, this doesn't seem to be the case. For many this may seem like whining. To me I'm just trying to figure out why the drive breaks like it does when I don't think that it should. I've been riding nearly 30 years and have owned 50 or more bikes and the only bike that has ever left me on the side of the road with a mechanical problem I couldn't fix is the LT. If yours had failed twice, wouldn't you want to know more? If I didn't like the bike, I wouldn't put up with it and would just get another. But I do like the bike and I really want to know more about why it breaks. That's just me, though.
 

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Lumpy said:
But I do like the bike and I really want to know more about why it breaks. That's just me, though.
There is the vexing problem. There have been many theories as to why the bearings are failing, but we are not sure which ones to embrace. I'm not even certain BMW knows why they are failing. From all the information shared within this community as well as on and off the record conversations with several employees in various positions within BMW Motorrad USA, I really think it boils down to one of two issues 1) inferior bearings, manufactured below the standards BMW dictated to their suppliers -or- 2) improper assembly techniques at the factory.
While I am inclined to believe it is the bearing itself, there has been some evidence presented by analysis of the bearings after the failure that would indicate some damage to the races during assembly or shipping. David Shealy had a bearing analyzed and found evidence of spalling which could come as a result of damage to the races. Many of the failed bearings, caught in the early stages have had the ball cages disintegrate. This, as I understand it, can be another result of spalling.

I have watched three dealers repair final drive assemblies, two of them simply pressed new bearings into place and reassembled the drives. I think these repairs are doomed to fail again. The third dealer used temperature differentials to allow the bearings to simply slide into place, both on the hub and into the housings. They also checked for and adjusted as needed - proper pinion gear contact, backlash and taper roller bearing preload during assembly. These bearings will probably last.

The long and the short of it is that there are a lot of factors that could contribute to the failure of these bearings as well as the subsequent failure of a replacement. My 2002 LT got the new 17-ball bearing (new at the time, but some replacements are now 19-ball and from a different vendor), in late 2003 or early 2004 as a preemptive measure. I was not concerned about the bearing in mine, but wanted it replaced for anecdotal reasons - I was urged to do that by my dealer. I put an additional 20,000 miles on that bike before trading it. The guy that purchased it from my dealer now has put an additional 70,000 miles on it without a bearing failure. My 20,000 were mostly 2-up with a trailer - his have been mostly 2-up. While that single case means nothing by itself, it does prove to me that the proper installation technique on a replacement bearing might be a factor in how long it lasts.
 

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but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's.



It amazes me that people expect a manufacturer with a US market share under 2% to have a dealer network of one that has over 45% of the US market.
 

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I picked a BMW motorcycle to be different from the rest of "The Sheep". If I wanted to be "Just Like All The Rest" I would have chosen differently. I've had Honda, Suzuki, & Yamaha's in the past they were all good bikes but..... The LT Is the best of all of them. Yes It has it's flaws, but what machine does not? I am also blessed with having one of the best dealers in the USA less then 10 miles from my home. When I'm on the road I don't think about breakdowns. If they happen I'll deal with them.In my opinion I have all I need to handle anything that happens on the road right here on this forum. I've heard of people loosing a read drive and have one brought to them and given help to install it . they where back on the road in no time with a great story to tell. The people here will bend over backwards to help you. I my self always have an open door and a garage to park in and or work in. :rant: So just ride what you like .....
 

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Randy said:
-------------------------------------------- My 2002 LT got the new 17-ball bearing (new at the time, but some replacements are now 19-ball and from a different vendor), in late 2003 or early 2004 as a preemptive measure. I------------------------------------.
Who is the vendor?

All I have ever seen here led me to believe that they went from the original SKF 19 ball, to FAG 17 ball, then back to the exact same SKF 19 ball bearing as previously used, same part number, C3 fit and all.

IS there actually a "new" 19 ball bearing that no one has actually dentified here?
 

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...... and with such a sparse dealer network, they never will have much of a market share.
 

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Lumpy said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the LT. I owned 3 GW's previously myself and I totally prefer the LT over them all. Yet I was told by a dealer tech that the bearing races he's seen on many failed final drives fell apart for reasons they could not determine. Personally speaking, I feel that two failures in my 68k miles is too many. It's super that many owners have not had to experience these failures on the road. But some of us have and I, for one, would appreciate knowing what goes awry with the bearing so that I can ride and enjoy the LT even more. Now, wouldn't anyone here want to know more if this had been your experience? Be honest, of course you would. But unless there is discussion on the failures, how else can we learn about them? And maybe it seems like a dead horse to most. But to others it's not. I signed on to the BMW community a year ago and before that I didn't even know there were other failures. Sure, things break all the time. Bikes break down. But more times than not you can relate the cause to something. In the case of the final drive, this doesn't seem to be the case. For many this may seem like whining. To me I'm just trying to figure out why the drive breaks like it does when I don't think that it should. I've been riding nearly 30 years and have owned 50 or more bikes and the only bike that has ever left me on the side of the road with a mechanical problem I couldn't fix is the LT. If yours had failed twice, wouldn't you want to know more? If I didn't like the bike, I wouldn't put up with it and would just get another. But I do like the bike and I really want to know more about why it breaks. That's just me, though.

I hear you... If I were in your position, I would want to know as well. But, the fact of the matter is, as a consumer, the best thing that I have found that I can do is take it a day at a time, indemnify myself against potential loss through an extended warranty and enjoy the machine.

I haven't had the final drive problem, but I have had other serious problems such as a rear main seal and other seals going bad which were costly repairs. I had an extended warranty that paid for it.

If you like the bike as you say, you must develop an ownership strategy that protects you from a negative outcome and then enjoy the bike. Since we don't know for sure the cause, BMW hasn't indicated that they have either, all we can do is just that.

Moving forward, here is my strategy with my '03:

1) I purchased the bike with very low mileage in early '05 with warranty left on it.

2) Purchased an all inclusive extended warranty to address potential problems. This was a 6 year policy that will expire 1/09 ..

3) I will renegotiate for the continuation of the policy. If I can not do that for an acceptable cost, I will trade in or sell the machine. At that time, I will either purchase another one and repeat the same strategy, or purchase another bike and follow that same protocol of ownership.

So far, the bike has had 2500.00 worth of repair work done in 33K miles in 1 minor repair and 2 more major repairs. My exposure has been 150.00 in deductables and 700.00 in the initial outlay of the warranty.

I have only been stranded for a short time once on a long trip due to my own stupidity. That was battery related. But I was able to resolve the problem since I had a battery tender with me.

I understand your longterm history of riding, but in reality, it really comes down to risk and the economics of owning the machine. If you can accept that risk, knowing what to expect from the manufacturer and the joy outways that risk to you, then go with it. If not, get rid of it and find another.

I wouldn't expect that much more from BMW on this issue for the following reasons:

1) They are loosing money in the US due to the horrible exchange rate with the Euro. This I believe accounts for the trouble that the US dealers are having dealing with them and profitiing.

2) We are a small market for them compared to just about everywhere else. And as Americans as a whole, we really have come to expect far better treatment from our vendors then many other cultures.

3) R&D is working on another LT -- Replacment for the existing model. This is where they are concentrating thier resources moving forward.

4) They are selling many more other models that they are concentrating their efforts on such as the GT, RT, GS (their best selling model), now the F800 series is a push changing focus of the public away from the current LT.

It all sums up to BMW not concentrating on the LT issue unless they are forced to.. It is a loosing proposition for them. That sucks for us, but, they are motiviated by what has the best bottom line for them.

Just my humble opinion.
 

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alindsay said:
...... and with such a sparse dealer network, they never will have much of a market share.
It's hard to argue that BMW has a small dealer network, but I think you may have the relationship backwards. No manufacturer had a large network before they sold enough motorcycles to create one, and no one ever will.
 

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Coot said:
Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.
I have just riden my new to me 2003 LT from Florida to Arizona with no problems at all. (2300 miles)
 

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dshealey said:
Who is the vendor?

All I have ever seen here led me to believe that they went from the original SKF 19 ball, to FAG 17 ball, then back to the exact same SKF 19 ball bearing as previously used, same part number, C3 fit and all.

IS there actually a "new" 19 ball bearing that no one has actually dentified here?
I will check into it. I am only repeating what I was told by one of the Motorrad technical reps last year. Shame on me for not verifying. I will do so as soon as possible.
 
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