[Dumberthanamotorcycle]

I managed to strip out a banjo bolt on the brake line at the top of the line to the rear master cylinder. (John Z -probably why I couldn't get any fluid out of the ABS on the back side.) This one is a royal "B" to get to anyway. I watched Kirk put a wrench on it to support it but mine had a bracket and a bunch of taped wires made it very difficult to get a support to it. I torqued to 18nm and stripped it out. I could not get it to stop leaking prior. After removing the rear shock I was able to remove the stripped one. At least I know I can do that when it is time to upgrade my rear suspension.) Here is the question. The BMW dealer wants $22 for a single bolt. Looking for some experienced opinions on weather to go with an aftermarket bolt of the same size off Amazon at 1/10th the cost. It will have a bolt head vs. the hex. Wondering what torque will be appropriate if I go this route. The downside I see is you can get a stripped hex bolt out with vise grips but I'll be drilling and tapping a bolt if I use my super human strength on it again.

 

[Wazza]

To be honest I think $22 is a very small price to pay for your safety and piece of mind. Go with the correct fitting and keep the connections to a standard.

 

[Uneasy_Ryder]

Banjo bolts have copper crush washers to seal the union. You should use new crush washers when using a banjo bolt, but most of us don't. If you couldn't get it to stop leaking I am betting this is why.

Sometimes you can get away with reusing the washers but you should use new ones.

 

[Dumberthanamotorcycle]

I did have new ones but you answered a question as to whether they can be reused.

 

[Scimitar]

They need to be annealed before re-use.

 

[Wazza]

Banjo bolts have copper crush washers to seal the union. You should use new crush washers when using a banjo bolt, but most of us don't. If you couldn't get it to stop leaking I am betting this is why.

Sometimes you can get away with reusing the washers but you should use new ones.

Yes I agree with that. Copper washers are not like rubber seals. They don't bounce back in shape to be used again. They should be renewed so that when you torque the fitting down the fresh copper conforms to what ever slight irregularities there may be in the sealing surfaces. Also the torque specs would be calculated for the compressibility of a fresh copper washer.

 

[Voyager]

Yes I agree with that. Copper washers are not like rubber seals. They don't bounce back in shape to be used again. They should be renewed so that when you torque the fitting down the fresh copper conforms to what ever slight irregularities there may be in the sealing surfaces. Also the torque specs would be calculated for the compressibility of a fresh copper washer.

I agree it is best to use new crush washers. Second best is to anneal them as mentioned earlier, but the cost of gas to heat them for annealing is probably almost as much as the cost of a new washer. Having said that, if you torque your drain plug properly and not apply it “farmer tight”, you can use them at least one additional time and I have used them a couple more times with no issue. The key is to use proper torque and nut crush them to death and also generally it is best to install them again with the same face toward the engine.

 

[dukey33]

When I replaced the brake lines, the Speigler kit came with new banjo bolts but they were standard head bolts vs the OE hex. I was unable to use the new bolts and found in some places, they would be more clearance limited. There is a reason other than aesthetics the factory uses hex bolts.
But if for your specific application the standard bolt will work, so long as the material is equivalent to the OE there is no reason not to change. Insofar as the the cost difference, for standard hardware the OE will way overcharge for some reason. Their hardware is not special or aircraft-quality if not required to be. It is just over-priced.

 

[Voyager]

When I replaced the brake lines, the Speigler kit came with new banjo bolts but they were standard head bolts vs the OE hex. I was unable to use the new bolts and found in some places, they would be more clearance limited. There is a reason other than aesthetics the factory uses hex bolts.
But if for your specific application the standard bolt will work, so long as the material is equivalent to the OE there is no reason not to change. Insofar as the the cost difference, for standard hardware the OE will way overcharge for some reason. Their hardware is not special or aircraft-quality if not required to be. It is just over-priced.

I am not sure what year your LT is, but I had no problem using the bolts that came with my Spiegler kit, at least once they replaced the one wrong size bolt they sent originally. I prefer the standard hex head bolts vs. the internal hex as they are less likely to strip and it is easier to get a box end wrench on them in tight spaces than get an Allen wrench on an internal hex bolt.

 

[Dumberthanamotorcycle]

I am not sure what year your LT is, but I had no problem using the bolts that came with my Spiegler kit, at least once they replaced the one wrong size bolt they sent originally. I prefer the standard hex head bolts vs. the internal hex as they are less likely to strip and it is easier to get a box end wrench on them in tight spaces than get an Allen wrench on an internal hex bolt.

Voyager- Mine is a 2003 with 16.5k miles. I hope to name it Lazurus because it hadn't been ridden for 10 years when I bought it about a month ago. I'm no Jesus and less of a mechanic but here is to hoping this thing can be brought back to life.

What torque setting did you use on the standard hex head banjo bolts? I decided I was into this project deep enough I popped for the $22 for a single bolt. Still hard to sit tonight. I figured it's like peeing in the ocean. I also ordered 5 on Amazon for $10 Just for the fun of it. They come with 10 crush washers which equals what BMW charges for each washer ($1) so the bolts are basically free. I think I may have stripped one on the front mc but it is holding. I'm going to test my torque wrench for accuracy tomorrow. Not sure why I would have stripped out two set for 18nm. I am going to begin using a recommendation by John Zeiler to start at 80% of recommended torque and move up by 10% if I have a leak.

To this point, I've changed the oil in the engine, final drive, transmission, changed the coolant, refilled the pre-load, changed fluid in clutch, replaced fuel pump/filter/hoses, replaced the fuel sensing unit, replaced gas lines and quick disconnects, cleaned the tank to the best of my ability, installed Spieglers, installed a new Odyssey Extreme PC680 battery, performed a cannisterectomy, bypassed the alarm, sent my injectors off to Mr. Injector (waiting for return), serviced the shift mechanism, removed the cd player and started on radioectomy tonight, . I think I need to pick up some fork oil and drain those, not showing any leakage but seemed like the thing to do while I've got the front wheel off. I'll probably pull the cover on the spark plugs to see what the wires look like (hoping they are ok with the low mileage). My tires should arrive tomorrow and I'll be trying my hand at installation and balancing.(I found a few bolts I haven't twisted off yet so what the hell!) I've got the Clymer manual and Kirk's videos have emboldened me to dive in. I haven't done anything this in-depth mechanically for about 50 years and then never have done much wrenching. I'm ready to replace the banjo bolt I stripped out and will hopefully get the brakes bled tomorrow and re-install the rear shock. Crossing my fingers the ABS isn't shot. I've got the integrated brakes. Then it will be time to fire this baby up and see if I did everything right. Then say 100 hail Mary's (I'm not even Catholic but figure it can't hurt) and try to get all the plastic, plugs, hoses etc back where it all belongs. Hope to be among the mobile majority soon. I made one major mistake by taking it to a local bike shop that had good social media reviews. They sat with it for 5 1/2 months and finally put it back together and gave it to me in worse condition by far than when I took it in. The bike looked like new when I bought it. Got a few scratches sitting in their shop. And I am pretty sure damaged the clear wings with brake fluid. I intend to ride it more than look at it so if it runs and rides like I hope it does it will be a small concession that can be dealt with later. I'll also tackle the weep hole once I know I have a running machine and not a pile of metal and plastic. In hindsight I should not have bought the bike but I've made larger bonehead decisions and hopefully this will turn out well. If not I'll have a parts bike, or sell it for one take it as another life lesson and move on. If I had regrets for all the stupid decisions I've made I'd have trouble living with myself. That's why we have wives right? I probably should have postponed some of the maintenance until I got it running but that's why I'm dumber than a motorcycle.

Thanks for the info on the torque question. Sorry for the novel but I figured I would save a lot of people suggesting I do that which is already done. I'm still open for additional opinions/suggestions and really appreciate the helpfulness and knowledge of this group. Looking forward to meeting many of you at future events.
Best regards

 

[Voyager]

Voyager- Mine is a 2003 with 16.5k miles. I hope to name it Lazurus because it hadn't been ridden for 10 years when I bought it about a month ago. I'm no Jesus and less of a mechanic but here is to hoping this thing can be brought back to life.

What torque setting did you use on the standard hex head banjo bolts? I decided I was into this project deep enough I popped for the $22 for a single bolt. Still hard to sit tonight. I figured it's like peeing in the ocean. I also ordered 5 on Amazon for $10 Just for the fun of it. They come with 10 crush washers which equals what BMW charges for each washer ($1) so the bolts are basically free. I think I may have stripped one on the front mc but it is holding. I'm going to test my torque wrench for accuracy tomorrow. Not sure why I would have stripped out two set for 18nm. I am going to begin using a recommendation by John Zeiler to start at 80% of recommended torque and move up by 10% if I have a leak.

To this point, I've changed the oil in the engine, final drive, transmission, changed the coolant, refilled the pre-load, changed fluid in clutch, replaced fuel pump/filter/hoses, replaced the fuel sensing unit, replaced gas lines and quick disconnects, cleaned the tank to the best of my ability, installed Spieglers, installed a new Odyssey Extreme PC680 battery, performed a cannisterectomy, bypassed the alarm, sent my injectors off to Mr. Injector (waiting for return), serviced the shift mechanism, removed the cd player and started on radioectomy tonight, . I think I need to pick up some fork oil and drain those, not showing any leakage but seemed like the thing to do while I've got the front wheel off. I'll probably pull the cover on the spark plugs to see what the wires look like (hoping they are ok with the low mileage). My tires should arrive tomorrow and I'll be trying my hand at installation and balancing.(I found a few bolts I haven't twisted off yet so what the hell!) I've got the Clymer manual and Kirk's videos have emboldened me to dive in. I haven't done anything this in-depth mechanically for about 50 years and then never have done much wrenching. I'm ready to replace the banjo bolt I stripped out and will hopefully get the brakes bled tomorrow and re-install the rear shock. Crossing my fingers the ABS isn't shot. I've got the integrated brakes. Then it will be time to fire this baby up and see if I did everything right. Then say 100 hail Mary's (I'm not even Catholic but figure it can't hurt) and try to get all the plastic, plugs, hoses etc back where it all belongs. Hope to be among the mobile majority soon. I made one major mistake by taking it to a local bike shop that had good social media reviews. They sat with it for 5 1/2 months and finally put it back together and gave it to me in worse condition by far than when I took it in. The bike looked like new when I bought it. Got a few scratches sitting in their shop. And I am pretty sure damaged the clear wings with brake fluid. I intend to ride it more than look at it so if it runs and rides like I hope it does it will be a small concession that can be dealt with later. I'll also tackle the weep hole once I know I have a running machine and not a pile of metal and plastic. In hindsight I should not have bought the bike but I've made larger bonehead decisions and hopefully this will turn out well. If not I'll have a parts bike, or sell it for one take it as another life lesson and move on. If I had regrets for all the stupid decisions I've made I'd have trouble living with myself. That's why we have wives right? I probably should have postponed some of the maintenance until I got it running but that's why I'm dumber than a motorcycle.

Thanks for the info on the torque question. Sorry for the novel but I figured I would save a lot of people suggesting I do that which is already done. I'm still open for additional opinions/suggestions and really appreciate the helpfulness and knowledge of this group. Looking forward to meeting many of you at future events.
Best regards

I forget when iABS came into being, but it seems like it was about your year so you may or may not have the same system as my 07.

I don’t recall what torque I used, but it was what was recommended for the aluminum bolts that came with my Spiegler kit. I bought my kit from STG as they were, at the time, the only one’s who offered banjo bolts that were color matched to the banjo fittings. I believe it was a fair bit less than what BMW recommended, but then I believe the BMW bolts were steel rather than aluminum, but it has been a few years now so don’t trust my memory on that.

BMW tends to the high side on torque settings so you definitely want to ensure that the bolts and threads they go into are clean and dry as any lubricant will make the stress even higher for a given torque value. I also tend to take the BMW torque value and use 90% of it for my fasteners. That is generally still more than enough and lessens the chance of stripping. So, far, knock on wood, no fasteners have been harmed in any of my maintenance or repair activities.

It sounds like you have covered most of the bases. One thing you did not mention is the top case latch. That is known to break. One person here used to sell replacement latch handles and also a kit to strengthen the OEM latch to prevent breakage. My stock latch worked fine for 10 years, but when I heard he was going to stop making the FIBIB kits, I bought and installed one. When I first bought my LT, I read about the broken latches and noticed that my top case was a little harder to close than I liked. So, I filed the side of the latches that engage the roll pins and too off a few thousands and then polished up the latches with sand paper up to 1000 grit or so. I then kept them greased and the latch closed with much less effort than stock. I also always pushed down on the lid as I closed the latch and taught my wife to do the same. This seemed to keep the stock latch in good shape, but I am still glad to have bought the next to last FIBIB kit. You may want to file and polish your top case latches and also push down on the lid when latching to remove as much stress from your latch handle as possible. BMW does not sell the latch handle separately, only the entire top case which is obscenely expensive.

 

[bruce60]

I changed my brake lines to Stainless, the kit came with new bolts and washers. I wrench for a living (cars) so I just tightened them until they were "tight", something I do all day long every day with never a stripped bolt. I would rather do crush washers by hand so I can feel them "crush" than with a torque wrench. My .02.

 

[Wazza]

Just a little point on torque wrenches. As you know there are a few different types of torque wrench. I mostly use the torsion bar type but I also have a couple of small spring type wrenches. You know, they type where you dial up the torque setting by a knob on the end of the handle. With this type of wrench you need to be very careful to never put it away with the wrench still set. If you do it will over time affect the spring tension and make readings inaccurate. You should always return these wrenches to zero after use.
You may know this but I just thought I would mention it in case you didn't.

 

[Voyager]

Just a little point on torque wrenches. As you know there are a few different types of torque wrench. I mostly use the torsion bar type but I also have a couple of small spring type wrenches. You know, they type where you dial up the torque setting by a knob on the end of the handle. With this type of wrench you need to be very careful to never put it away with the wrench still set. If you do it will over time affect the spring tension and make readings inaccurate. You should always return these wrenches to zero after use.
You may know this but I just thought I would mention it in case you didn't.

That is a good point. Also, it is better to use the right sized wrench. By right size, I mean one where the torque being applied is in the center 60% band of the wrench’s range. When you get within 20% of either end of the range, accuracy tends to suffer.

 

[Dumberthanamotorcycle]

I forget when iABS came into being, but it seems like it was about your year so you may or may not have the same system as my 07.

I don’t recall what torque I used, but it was what was recommended for the aluminum bolts that came with my Spiegler kit. I bought my kit from STG as they were, at the time, the only one’s who offered banjo bolts that were color matched to the banjo fittings. I believe it was a fair bit less than what BMW recommended, but then I believe the BMW bolts were steel rather than aluminum, but it has been a few years now so don’t trust my memory on that.

BMW tends to the high side on torque settings so you definitely want to ensure that the bolts and threads they go into are clean and dry as any lubricant will make the stress even higher for a given torque value. I also tend to take the BMW torque value and use 90% of it for my fasteners. That is generally still more than enough and lessens the chance of stripping. So, far, knock on wood, no fasteners have been harmed in any of my maintenance or repair activities.

It sounds like you have covered most of the bases. One thing you did not mention is the top case latch. That is known to break. One person here used to sell replacement latch handles and also a kit to strengthen the OEM latch to prevent breakage. My stock latch worked fine for 10 years, but when I heard he was going to stop making the FIBIB kits, I bought and installed one. When I first bought my LT, I read about the broken latches and noticed that my top case was a little harder to close than I liked. So, I filed the side of the latches that engage the roll pins and too off a few thousands and then polished up the latches with sand paper up to 1000 grit or so. I then kept them greased and the latch closed with much less effort than stock. I also always pushed down on the lid as I closed the latch and taught my wife to do the same. This seemed to keep the stock latch in good shape, but I am still glad to have bought the next to last FIBIB kit. You may want to file and polish your top case latches and also push down on the lid when latching to remove as much stress from your latch handle as possible. BMW does not sell the latch handle separately, only the entire top case which is obscenely expensive.

Thanks for the advise on the top case. All of my cases have been slow to respond and generally takes multiple attempts before they pop open. Closing has not been an issue. I hit them with liquid wrench I will certainly look into applying grease. Having to buy the entire case vs an option to repair seems ridiculous.

 

[Dumberthanamotorcycle]

Just a little point on torque wrenches. As you know there are a few different types of torque wrench. I mostly use the torsion bar type but I also have a couple of small spring type wrenches. You know, they type where you dial up the torque setting by a knob on the end of the handle. With this type of wrench you need to be very careful to never put it away with the wrench still set. If you do it will over time affect the spring tension and make readings inaccurate. You should always return these wrenches to zero after use.
You may know this but I just thought I would mention it in case you didn't.

Thanks for the torque wrench advice, my experience has been limited until now. I recently bought 2 spring type and have been pretty religious about releasing tension. We are going to test the larger one today vs a torsion wrench to see if it is me or the wrench. It says it is accurate to =/- 3% which seems like a high degree of slop to me. The 1/4" drive is =/- 4%. Starting at 80% should cover the lack of accuracy in the tool. Wish I had the feel that Bruce60 does but I don't and will have to attempt to start with lowered % of torque recommendations and watch for leaks.

 

[Voyager]

Thanks for the advise on the top case. All of my cases have been slow to respond and generally takes multiple attempts before they pop open. Closing has not been an issue. I hit them with liquid wrench I will certainly look into applying grease. Having to buy the entire case vs an option to repair seems ridiculous.

I would consider filing some metal off the latches also to reduce the closing force required. Even with the latches filed and polished, they still provide more than enough compression on the gasket to prevent leaks when closed.

 

[Voyager]

Thanks for the torque wrench advice, my experience has been limited until now. I recently bought 2 spring type and have been pretty religious about releasing tension. We are going to test the larger one today vs a torsion wrench to see if it is me or the wrench. It says it is accurate to =/- 3% which seems like a high degree of slop to me. The 1/4" drive is =/- 4%. Starting at 80% should cover the lack of accuracy in the tool. Wish I had the feel that Bruce60 does but I don't and will have to attempt to start with lowered % of torque recommendations and watch for leaks.

Generally, beam style torque wrenches are more accurate and reliable as you are dealing strictly with physics with no moving mechanisms required. However, they are hard to use as you need to be able to read the scale without much parallax and that can be tricky when doing things upside down like oil drain bolts. Also, at higher torque values, it can be hard to old things steady if your muscles start twitching. This wasn’t a problem when I was 20, but is becoming more of a problem at 61. 😂. I can still apply more torque than many half my age, but not nearly as capable as I was 30 years ago.

4% accuracy is fairly typical and generally fine. There is more variation than that from bolt to bolt based on the condition of the bolt so don’t sweat it. Where things really need to be accurate, different methods are used such as torque to angle, or even better yet, torque to length as on some fasteners used in aerospace applications. Yes, you measure the bolt length before apply torque and then keep tightening the nut and measuring the bolt length until you reach a specified amount of stretch. Obviously, this only works on things like case through bolts where you have access to both ends of the bolt.

Even 4% is only 4 ft-lbs at 100 ft-lbs so it is still pretty close.

 

[ebiss9]

Generally, beam style torque wrenches are more accurate and reliable as you are dealing strictly with physics with no moving mechanisms required. However, they are hard to use as you need to be able to read the scale without much parallax and that can be tricky when doing things upside down like oil drain bolts. Also, at higher torque values, it can be hard to old things steady if your muscles start twitching. This wasn’t a problem when I was 20, but is becoming more of a problem at 61. 😂. I can still apply more torque than many half my age, but not nearly as capable as I was 30 years ago.

4% accuracy is fairly typical and generally fine. There is more variation than that from bolt to bolt based on the condition of the bolt so don’t sweat it. Where things really need to be accurate, different methods are used such as torque to angle, or even better yet, torque to length as on some fasteners used in aerospace applications. Yes, you measure the bolt length before apply torque and then keep tightening the nut and measuring the bolt length until you reach a specified amount of stretch. Obviously, this only works on things like case through bolts where you have access to both ends of the bolt.

Even 4% is only 4 ft-lbs at 100 ft-lbs so it is still pretty close.

Gotta add my 2 cents worth here since many thousands of years ago I was operating a Calibration Lab at an aircraft turbine engine overhaul facility. Absolutely right about bending beam type torque wrenches being the most accurate and reliable in the long haul. Electronic load cell types are way up there in accuracy but have somewhat questionable long term dependability. Dial type generally see 1% accuracy in both CW and CCW direction. With my eyes of a dead fish and hearing of a squid, I prefer the click type torque wrench for ease of use but their best accuracy is 4% clockwise and 6% counterclockwise within 20-100% of range only. Calibration and maintenance are essential for continued accuracy. I maintain all my own torque wrenches with access to a torque calibrator which in turn gets calibrated via dead weights once a year. Seems a shame to continually calibrate my wrenches and then hardly ever use em!

 

[DRONE]

Just a little point on torque wrenches. As you know there are a few different types of torque wrench. I mostly use the torsion bar type but I also have a couple of small spring type wrenches. You know, they type where you dial up the torque setting by a knob on the end of the handle. With this type of wrench you need to be very careful to never put it away with the wrench still set. If you do it will over time affect the spring tension and make readings inaccurate. You should always return these wrenches to zero after use.
You may know this but I just thought I would mention it in case you didn't.

I'm 69 years old and have never heard this before. Just to be sure, I googled it and Wazza's advice seems to jibe with the experts. So I'm gonna start doing that, but I guess I also need to check the calibration on my three.

I use the dead weght technique to check my wrenches. Any problem doing it this way? Way cheaper than sending them out somewhere.