[SmokinJoe]

Tim,

I thought I read (on their web site) that Amsoil allows you to double the change interval using their oil. (12,000 mile vs. 6,000) (Harley 10,000 vs. 5,000)

Am I correct?

Correct, up to double the OEM oil change interval for the oil and the AMSOIL filter or 1 year whichever comes first. They've got car oils up to 35,000 miles normal driving or one year, whichever is first. I wish they had that for motorcycles![/QUOTE]
Thanks Tim,
BTW, I just got off the phone w/ my Amsoil jobber. He said they have the filter in chrome (EAOM 122 C (chrome). Not enough demand to make the unpainted filter.
This may help resolve the possible paint failure scare.

 

[ErnieA]

Weird. I've used the same filter wrench end cap that was given to me 6 years ago by the owner of the 2000 K1200LT that I bought from him for both the SMF122 and the EaOM122 filters. I'm due for another oil change in December and will be installing an EaOM122 filter I bought 6 months ago. Maybe the problem is with a current production run? If anything, the dozen previous AMSOIL filters were a little too tight. Sounds like I may be using a smaller filter wrench than you. It either has to be a thin wall wrench to fit in the opening, or I think some had to shave off the outer lip of the wrench to get it to fit in the opening.

The EaOM122 is physically smaller in diameter than the BMW and SMF122 filters. The BMW Filter wrench will not work. Other oil filter wrenches of a similar style will not fit in the case or fit the filter, but I'm working on making an adapter for the BMW wrench. I'll post what I find that works.

 

[Amsoil1]

I checked my oil filter wrench (Hazet 2169) and it fits the AMSOIL EaOM122 perfectly and it fits in the oil filter cavity, and found this description on line "This is a special 92mm socket with 1/2" drive and 15 points, used to remove the oil filtor on a Porsche 911. It will fit any Mann or Knecht filtor of the 92mm size. It will also fit several Audi/VW diesel cars. Please measure for your application. A fine quality German Made tool to use on your German car."

I would think it could be found at an auto supply store that specializes in German autos.

 

[Amsoil1]

Even though I am not concerned about paint coming off the AMSOIL filter and causing problems, I sent AMSOIL the following request.

Name TIM & TERESA VIPOND
ZO or Acct Number 1181889
Email [email protected]
Comments Please make a version of the EaOM122 unpainted. These are used in BMW motorcycles that have the oil filter sitting inside the oil pan with the engine oil. There is alot of concern that the paint could come off the filter and into the oil and cause problems in the engine. Many potential customers refuse to use any painted filter submersed in oil and we could probably sell more of these than the painted filter. Plus it would likely cost less.

I suggest others contact AMSOIL at www.amsoil.com and make the same request. Maybe if enough potential customers act, we will get the best filter made for our bikes, unpainted, and maybe for a buck less.

 

[Lynn_Keen]

Tim,


Correct, up to double the OEM oil change interval for the oil and the AMSOIL filter or 1 year whichever comes first. They've got car oils up to 35,000 miles normal driving or one year, whichever is first. I wish they had that for motorcycles!

Since our K1200LT's have a dry clutch, unlike most bikes, what makes our engines different than an auto engine? In other words, why can't we use the car oils and apply their recommended change intervals?

 

[Amsoil1]

Since our K1200LT's have a dry clutch, unlike most bikes, what makes our engines different than an auto engine? In other words, why can't we use the car oils and apply their recommended change intervals?

A few reasons I can think of:
1. My 2006 manual states API classification SF, SG or SH. Most car/truck oils are SJ, SL, SM. These later classifications are formulated with different formulations.
2. There is a BMW service bulletin that recommends against SJ oils.
3. I prefer to use an oil and filter that is warranted for parts and labor should the oil or filter fail at up to double the OEM change interval or 1 year, whichever occurs first, which I used in my 137,000 mile 2000LT. I don't know of any car/truck oils that have a similar warranty for motorycles. The manufacturers themselves do not test/formulate/recommend their oils for use in motorcycles, and may not cover you should problems occur. Call them up and ask them.
4. I've noticed many car/truck oils tend to cloud up the oil level sight glass.
5. The sprague clutch which is splashed with engine oil is touchy as to what comes into contact with it.
6. Ask BMW if using a car/truck oil is a good idea. I did and they said motorcycle specific oils only.
A good source of information that gives reasons to use motorcycle oil over car oil and compares 26 motorcycle oils in 10 standard ASTM test methods can be found at https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf .

 

[dshealey]

A few reasons I can think of:
1. My 2006 manual states API classification SF, SG or SH. Most car/truck oils are SJ, SL, SM. These later classifications are formulated with different formulations
2. There is a BMW service bulletin that recommends against SJ oils..

However, IF an oil lists the above grades, even if it meets SJ requirements it also meets any others listed. For instance: Castrol Syntec synthetic lists: "Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer's warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where API SM, SL, SJ, SH, CF or CD is recommended"

3. I prefer to use an oil and filter that is warranted for parts and labor should the oil or filter fail at up to double the OEM change interval or 1 year, whichever occurs first, which I used in my 137,000 mile 2000LT. I don't know of any car/truck oils that have a similar warranty for motorycles. The manufacturers themselves do not test/formulate/recommend their oils for use in motorcycles, and may not cover you should problems occur. Call them up and ask them.
4. I've noticed many car/truck oils tend to cloud up the oil level sight glass.
5. The sprague clutch which is splashed with engine oil is touchy as to what comes into contact with it.

The Sprag clutch needs lubrication, but it is not "touchy" in that respect. However, it acts as a small centrifuge, so any cabon buildup on the sprag cage causes the sprags to stick and not engage the hub properly. It is not a lubrication issue, but a sticking one. My sprag clutch stuck after thousands of miles running with broken piston ring lands allowed a lot of blow by, causing carbon buildup in in. There was no wear to speak of evident in it, and I could have just cleaned it and re-installed it, but I had the new part so put it in.

6. Ask BMW if using a car/truck oil is a good idea. I did and they said motorcycle specific oils only.

Yet again you continue to bring this up when the person who answered your question totally destroyed any credibility he had with the comment about "damaging the clutch", which is certainly an issue with the NEW K bikes with the engine oil lubricated clutch, but NOT on the LT which has a dry clutch.

A good source of information that gives reasons to use motorcycle oil over car oil and compares 26 motorcycle oils in 10 standard ASTM test methods can be found at https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf .

I do not argue at all about whether or not Amsoil is a good oil, it is. However, I still very strongly believe that motorcycle specific oil accomplishes absolutely nothing in the "brick" K engine. Any GOOD automotive oil that meets the SG/SH requirements in 20W50 grade will fill the requirement nicely. There are a LOT of very high mileage BMWs on the road that do not use "motorcycle" oils. At 100,000 miles when I had to open up my engine due to the detonation damage to the pistons, there was practically NO measurable wear on ANY engine part. I put the original crank and rod bearings back in as there was no reason to change them. Even piston ring gaps were barely at the end of the INSTALL tolerances, had not even encroached on the allowable wear range yet!

I may have tried Amsoil myself, but saw no need to since very good oils are readily available at my local auto parts stores that will easily meet ALL requirements for the LT engine. Amsoil is not usually readily available in your neighborhood, which to me is it's greatest drawback. I can get very high end European synthetics easier here in San Diego, such as Motul and Lubro-Moly (Liqui-Moly). I like being able to walk in and pick up oil "off the shelf". However since the LT engine is basically an automotive design in all respects, felt no need to use other than off the shelf high grade automotive oils.

There would have to be evidence on many very high mileage LTs that used various oils to show any real advantage in using expensive oils. The real fact is that very many, if not most high mileage BMWs have used standard automotive "dino" oils, not even synthetic, so the "advantages" of any brand/type over another in the long run are very small at best.

 

[Amsoil1]

I, the motorcycle manufactures, and the oil manufacturers all disagree with you, Mr. Healey. Please find some motorcycle and oil manufacturers that agree with you and will provide warranty protection in writing and post, please. Right now, they side with me. Why take a chance?

 

[dshealey]

I, the motorcycle manufactures, and the oil manufacturers all disagree with you, Mr. Healey. Please find some motorcycle and oil manufacturers that agree with you and will provide warranty protection in writing and post, please. Right now, they side with me. Why take a chance?

BS! Find BMW motorcycle engine failures to any extent related to oil to back up your claims. Why waste money? Empirical proof is far more relevant than any documentation that "proposes" a possible advantage.

Saying it "could" happen, when there is precious little to no evidence to back it up is just crying wolf. Spending more money when there is no problem to fix by doing so is just plain wasteful.

Using motorcycle oils in those bikes that need it, such as air cooled, low RPM, wet clutch, transmission gears lubed by engine oil, etc. is just fine, but the LT is NOT one of them. We are only talking about the LT here, nothing else. The BMW missive you posted in the past was totally discredited by the clutch statement, and carries absolutely NO weight relative to the LT. Where does BMW state in any LT owner's manual, service manual, or any other relative documentation that "motorcycle oil" is needed, or even recommended? Can't find it? Didn't think so.

 

[DanMartin]

Amsoil

What a load of crap. I'll stick with dino that I can buy anywhere.


Dan Martin
5 miles north of the no-traffic Sugar Land

 

[Amsoil1]

David,

How many miles have you ridden on API SM oils? None. Car/truck oil formulations change all the time. These are not tested on motorcycles. If you can find someone that has 100's of thousands of miles using these API SM oils at 6,000 mile oil change intervals on a K1200LT, then I will reconsider my position.

How many oil companies recommend and warranty car/truck oils for BMW K1200LT's. None. They don't want the liability. They know that motorcycle oils and car/truck oils are formulated differently. Car oils have reduced metal protecting additives, because they can poison catalytic converters.

Have you ever asked BMW if they will warranty the K1200LT if you use car/truck oils? No? Why not? Why doesn't the 2006 BMW K1200LT list SJ, SL, SM oils? SJ has been around since 1997, SL since 2001, SM since 2004. It is because car/truck only oils with these API classifications are not optimum for use in the K1200LT. What is it that you know that the oil and BMW engineers don't know?

I got this quote the other day and it seems to fit here:

WORDS OF WISDOM


“It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything because the parts or labor you bought was incapable of doing the job it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it cannot be done. If you buy from the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

John Ruskin
1819 - 1900

 

[dshealey]

David,

How many miles have you ridden on API SM oils? None.

Wrong! I ran Castrol Syntec for over 60,000 miles, and here is the Castrol information:
.....
SAE 20W-50:


Provides superior oil film strength and extreme high temperature protection. Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer's warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where API SM, SL, SJ, SH, CF or CD is recommended. Exceeds European ACEA: A3, B3, B4, and the engine protection requirements of GM 4718M, ILSAC GF-4 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils.
............
Notice the API ratings includes SM,SJ, and SH.

Car/truck oil formulations change all the time. These are not tested on motorcycles. If you can find someone that has 100's of thousands of miles using these API SM oils at 6,000 mile oil change intervals on a K1200LT, then I will reconsider my position.

Exactly my point. Neither can you find evidence of an oil related problem on LTs with hundreds of thousands of miles. Without a demonstrated problem, there is nothing to "fix".

How many oil companies recommend and warranty car/truck oils for BMW K1200LT's. None. They don't want the liability. They know that motorcycle oils and car/truck oils are formulated differently. Car oils have reduced metal protecting additives, because they can poison catalytic converters.

Then we should poison the LT's catalytic coverter with oil that has higher volume of "metal protecting additives"?

Have you ever asked BMW if they will warranty the K1200LT if you use car/truck oils? No? Why not? Why doesn't the 2006 BMW K1200LT list SJ, SL, SM oils? SJ has been around since 1997, SL since 2001, SM since 2004. It is because car/truck only oils with these API classifications are not optimum for use in the K1200LT. What is it that you know that the oil and BMW engineers don't know?

BMW does warranty repair engines that use oils that have SG/SH ratings included in the ratings, no matter if it is "motorcycle" specific or not. Of course the real fact is that warranty repairs on BMW engines will be done and the oil used not even questioned. If someone can point to a warranty repair where BMW even asked what kind of oil was used, it would be a rare instance.

I got this quote the other day and it seems to fit here:

WORDS OF WISDOM


“It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything because the parts or labor you bought was incapable of doing the job it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it cannot be done. If you buy from the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

John Ruskin
1819 - 1900

We will be in total disagreement on this for life Tim. Being an engineer by trade, I will believe in what I can see from actual empirical evidence far more than someone's "projected possibilities" based on data not backed up by factual evidence. Problem is that there are very many thousands of "K" Brick engines that have ben used in motorcycles for three decades now, with proably few engine failures of any kind, and I doubt if even one failure can be factually related to oil type/brand used. Going far too long between changes, oil pump/regulator failures, or running them low on oil, certainly; but that has nothing to do with type or brand.

I think you are trying very hard to sell a fix for a "problem" regarding the LT that just does not exist to an extent warranting the slightest bit of worry about it. The new BMW transverse K engines though, another matter entirely. If I get one of those, I will use Motorcycle specific oil. Another LT though, nope.

 

[jzeiler]

My 2 cents

A few reasons I can think of:
1. My 2006 manual states API classification SF, SG or SH. Most car/truck oils are SJ, SL, SM. These later classifications are formulated with different formulations.

Tim,

According to the API the ratings of SF, SG, and SH are obsolete and are only for engines made prior to 1996. Why does BMW specify an obsolete oil?

 

[Amsoil1]

David, didn't you break your bike before API SM was even available in 2004? How could you have put 60,000 miles on an oil that wasn't even available until after your bike broke?

Nowhere does BMW suggest using car oils with API SJ, SL, SM. Ask them. If you can get BMWNA to say car/truck oils that are API SM rated are fine to use, then please post. They don't say API classification SF, SG or SH or Newer. They purposely stopped at SH.

Nowhere do car/truck oil companies say they meet motorcycle specifications in the oils and will cover them with a warranty. If you can get them to do so, please post.

David, feel free to use any oil you like. I prefer to follow the advice of the engineers who made the bike and the oil.

I know dozens of motorcyclists that are using motorcycle specific oils, and don't know of anyone using an API SM rated car/truck oil in their motorcycles, so how can you say it is just as good? Where is the data? Is anyone using an API SM rated car/truck oil? Which one? For how long? Do you have a warranty? Why is it worth the "risk"?

JZielier - API SF, SG, SH are obsolete for car/truck oils, but are still specified by motorcycle manufacturers including BMW.

 

[jzeiler]

JZielier - API SF, SG, SH are obsolete for car/truck oils, but are still specified by motorcycle manufacturers including BMW.

Sure BMW recommends the obsolete oils because the engine was designed before the oils went obsolete. The engine design has not changed so why spec a better oil than it needs - that would be a waste.

It is not car or motorcycle that API rates their oils standards for but engine design parameters based on bearing and other engine materials and tolerances.

 

[SmokinJoe]

chrome version oil filter, EaOM122C

Even though I am not concerned about paint coming off the AMSOIL filter and causing problems, I sent AMSOIL the following request.

Name TIM & TERESA VIPOND
ZO or Acct Number 1181889
Email [email protected]
Comments Please make a version of the EaOM122 unpainted. These are used in BMW motorcycles that have the oil filter sitting inside the oil pan with the engine oil. There is alot of concern that the paint could come off the filter and into the oil and cause problems in the engine. Many potential customers refuse to use any painted filter submersed in oil and we could probably sell more of these than the painted filter. Plus it would likely cost less.

I suggest others contact AMSOIL at www.amsoil.com and make the same request. Maybe if enough potential customers act, we will get the best filter made for our bikes, unpainted, and maybe for a buck less.

This is the response from AMSOIL;

From: Holappa, Richard
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:28 PM
To: Mail TechService
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form

Dear Sir:



Thank you for contacting AMSOIL with your concerns.



In response to your inquiry, AMSOIL also offers a chrome version, EaOM122C, has a little or no chance of the coating coming off.



Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.



Sincerely




Richard Holappa, Jr.

Technical Product Manager: Filtration


The accuracy of this e-mail response is dependent upon the information provided. AMSOIL INC. is not responsible for wrong recommendations that were based on inaccurate or incomplete information

 

[dshealey]

David, didn't you break your bike before API SM was even available in 2004? How could you have put 60,000 miles on an oil that wasn't even available until after your bike broke?

Nowhere does BMW suggest using car oils with API SJ, SL, SM. Ask them. If you can get BMWNA to say car/truck oils that are API SM rated are fine to use, then please post. They don't say API classification SF, SG or SH or Newer. They purposely stopped at SH. -------------------.

The Castrol oil does have SH in the rating. And, nowhere does BMW state that one should use "Motorcycle" SH rated oil in the LT. The one email you had was useless, and did not state any BMW engineering mandated specification, just one misguided persons opinion. Later oils can still use the earlier designations if the oil has not changed in such a way as to no longer meet that standard. BMW stated no SJ rated oil when it first came out, and if I remember correctly SJ was the first API rating ever that was not fully backward compatible. Newer ratings on SOME oils however have re-instated the SH rating, which means that they now fulfill ALL requirements of SH, or they could not put it in the specification. So, using it FULLY and COMPLETELY fulfills BMW's stated oil specification for use in the LT.

Yes, I can and will use what oil I please, as will you. No problem with that at all. I do have an issue with your scare tactics trying to get people to use whatever brand you are pushing, when there is absolutely NO historical record whatsoever for the past 3 decades on the "K" engine that supports any need, or even any noticeable gain due to the "advantages" you state. Basically, if it ain't broke, there is no gain in "fixing" it. It is like someone to whom a size 9 shoe is perfectly comfortable thinking that a size 10 would be fantastic.

As I said, if I get a bike with the new K configuration, then I may consider Amsoil, IF it is available on a moments notice local to me, other wise I will use a high grade brand that meets the specs needed and more readily available, and have absolutely no qualms about it being good enough.

Now if there were actual INDEPENDENT tests (not sponsored by or run by any one oil company) that showed any significant measurable gains in any area that actually improved end performance of or lengthened the service life of the LT style engine due to oil used, then that would be more acceptable as a possible reason someone may wish to use it. Otherwise, it is all just wishful thinking and hot air overkill. Yes, a 30-06 will kill a squirrel, but why? Does it kill it any "better"? How many here will actually ever wear out an LT engine? Don Arthur had well over 300,000 miles on his, and it was still running just fine. Several have gone over 200,000 with no issues, mine looked and measured like it would have easily topped 200,000 if not for the detonation damaged pistons. What will Amsoil, or any other oil do to improve that, and how many riders here really care? I imagine out of the thousands of LTs on the road, only a handful will ever see much over 200,000 on them. Maybe the second, third, etc. owners will in a few years. Not many first owners will spend extra money to help out the later owners though.

 

[Amsoil1]

David, so did you really put 60,000 miles on a K1200LT with an API SM rated oil like you said you did? This is the issue. I don't know anyone that has. Nobody recommends an API SM rated car oil for a K1200LT except for you. I prefer to follow the recommendations of the engineers that built the engine and those that formulate the oil specifically for its use. The 2006 BMW manual does not recommend any car oil with the API SJ, SL or SM designation, even if it is SH. The new designation are formulation changes that BMW is not recommending. I don't see how you can say it is a "scare tactic" to recommend following what the manufacturer says.

I'm glad you brought up Don Arthur's bike. He used the BMW motorcycle oil at 15,000 mile oil changes. No API SJ, SL, SM. Just the manual specified API SF, SG, SH.

 

[dshealey]

David, so did you really put 60,000 miles on a K1200LT with an API SM rated oil like you said you did?

edited: I used BMW dino for 18,000, then BMW synthetic for 5-6 oil changes, which would have put me at about 48,000, then switched to Castrol Synthetic which I used until the bike was totaled at 110,000. I only know that it was SH rated, did not keep up with the addition of ratings over time.

This is the issue. I don't know anyone that has. Nobody recommends an API SM rated car oil for a K1200LT except for you. I prefer to follow the recommendations of the engineers that built the engine and those that formulate the oil specifically for its use. The 2006 BMW manual does not recommend any car oil with the API SJ, SL or SM designation, even if it is SH. The new designation are formulation changes that BMW is not recommending. I don't see how you can say it is a "scare tactic" to recommend following what the manufacturer says.

I'm glad you brought up Don Arthur's bike. He used the BMW motorcycle oil at 15,000 mile oil changes. No API SJ, SL, SM. Just the manual specified API SF, SG, SH.

I will say it ONE more time, them I am out of here. If the oil has an SH rating, it has to FULLY fulfill SH requirements, even if it has other later ratings on it. BMW only stated that SJ should not be used at the advent of SJ, but have not come out aganist SL or SM, and since SJ originally came out without SG/SH ratings, but later ones of some brands offerings now again include SH, they should be fine. I can only assume they re-formulated again to re-match the SH requirements in the later issues. I am pretty sure that SJ was the only API rating ever that did not fulfill all previous requirements. Up to that point the ratings were all backward compliant as far as I know.

If Castrol is stating SH on their product, but it does not meet SH requirements then Castrol is at fault.

 

[jzeiler]

I'm glad you brought up Don Arthur's bike. He used the BMW motorcycle oil at 15,000 mile oil changes. No API SJ, SL, SM. Just the manual specified API SF, SG, SH.

Tim,
If you look at the bottle of BMW "motorcycle" oil it does not say specially formulated for motorcycles and it also does not state SF, SG , or SH. It does state it exceeds SG which is the same as SH, SL, and SM. I am also done as I know when to spend my time at better ventures.

David,

You know and engineer can never win with a marketer.