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Sorry to disagree but greasing the FD and DS with molly is the ONLY way to fix this.

Water CAN NOT penetrate Molly. Water will be flung off and never have a chance to rust!
It is a articulated joint as to it it moves or not up for you to debate. I will say that busted knuckels are common on these rusted shafts and I wonder if a rust welded FD/DS causes that angle to not move? I will let you debate that but IMHO it moves or should. Maybe you can not perceive it but it is made to slide.

All I know is anyone who has done this service, as it IS a service just not called out any longer have NO issues with rust on FD/DS splines. I will leave you to debate it, or even drop yours and have a look. I dare you! Take pictures! Your RT is no different then my 17.5 GS.

Here is my 17.5 new. DRY as a bone! Can you imagine what it would look like now, 5 years later?


Early airheads did it yearly. It was called out.

I was made aware in 2015. This is not new or due to water crossings or any other reason except for bare metal in contact with bare metal. Nothing more, nothing less.

Read the new thread I posted from BMW on the Service Campaigne. Which does nothing to address the real issue.
 
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And since you will disagree, you can disagree with BMW. From my post and the lips of the Mothership:

"Universal joint, articulation angle, corrosion
Background according to BMW, from a message to the dealers: "Service campaign during the next visit to the workshop - retrofit drainage in the swingarm and check the cardan shaft. Damage to the cardan shaft occasionally occurs, which impairs the function of the drive. In individual cases, propulsion can be lost Several factors contribute to the occurrence of damage.Corrosion effects, among others, play a role if they occur at functionally relevant points.Signs of wear caused by running time or particular climatic and dynamic loads can also lead to component damage. These effects can be caused by the geometric chassis design (kink angle of the universal joints in the swing arm) be reinforced."
 

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The spline didn't fail, and the fact that it rusted together solid, proves the point that I have been making all along over the years. The new design of the drive is such that the mating splines do NOT move with respect to one another! IF they were moving, they wouldn't have been able to be rusted together! So, lubrication doesn't do a thing! I know the thread that you are talking about, and if you will look back at that thread, you will find that I was quite involved in the discussions! He had found the seized (fully rusted) spline only because the u-joint had failed!! If it's the same thread I am talking about, the guy made the repair himself, and went one step further by drilling a drain hole in the housing! That is, until I had pointed out to him that the plain "drain-hole" is not such a good idea, since the housing will heat up some, as you ride, and the air inside will expand and vent. As soon as you ride through a puddle, the housing will get a sudden cooling, and actually will suck in any water outside the drain hole! He wisely plugged up the hole that he had drilled! [Now BMW is going to do the very same thing, BUT will also fit a one-way drain valve! Our guy had the right idea at the beginning!!]

The other thing that he did wrong was to use the spline-lube grease to seal his boot instead of the BMW specified compound, which I had also told him about. A few weeks later, he reported that while riding though pouring rain, he went through a big puddle. On checking later, he reported that he had drained out about 1/2 cup of water from inside the housing!

So, I will repeat what I said many times in the past - IF you do get inside the drive housing and see rust, take that as a serious warning sign. Saying that lubing the spline just so that it doesn't rust is pure ignorant!
I don’t recall that. I remember he got BMW to replace it under warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
For what it is worth on the 12,000 mile valve check and spark plug replacement.

I just had this done by my local BMW dealership. I clarified with the mechanic that they would check the cam timing prior to valve lash check and he indicated "yes that has to be done first". Now I did not have an opportunity to supervise his actions that he actually did it, but he was at least knowledgeable about the process and BMW tools required to check it.

Spark plug BMW# 12128560811 $ 27.72/ea
Valve lash adjustment with cam timing checked $105
Total cost out the door $170 with tax/shop supplies

View attachment 179697


I have no idea if they put in the correct plugs in nor did I receive the old ones back. I also don't have any guarantee that they checked the cam timing nor adjusted the valves correctly. l took my chances on BMW maintenance from a BMW certified dealer that I typically would always do myself but wanted the receipt for warranty purposes and the price was within reason. Time will tell...
I can understand the cam timing check! It's not in the regular maintenance schedule, but lots of people, including myself, have gotten "gun-shy" with BMW, after finding that many wethead 1200s were delivered from the factory, back around 2015. My RT is also at the dealer for some works, and I have asked them to check the cam timing as well. If it's done properly, this should be just a one-time check, since the only thing that can change the cam timing at all is the so-called timing chain "stretch". Consider the size of the timing chain and the relatively light loads, that's not going to happen for many, many years.

BTW, I think that I had posted this for you already when you first came on the forum, but if anybody want to see the official BMW maintenance check-list, you can go to this site, scroll down to find your bike model, and DL the various maintenance schedule (A&S is a BMW dealer in California): bmw_motorcycle_service_and_maintenance_schedules
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
And since you will disagree, you can disagree with BMW. From my post and the lips of the Mothership:

"Universal joint, articulation angle, corrosion
Background according to BMW, from a message to the dealers: "Service campaign during the next visit to the workshop - retrofit drainage in the swingarm and check the cardan shaft. Damage to the cardan shaft occasionally occurs, which impairs the function of the drive. In individual cases, propulsion can be lost Several factors contribute to the occurrence of damage.Corrosion effects, among others, play a role if they occur at functionally relevant points.Signs of wear caused by running time or particular climatic and dynamic loads can also lead to component damage. These effects can be caused by the geometric chassis design (kink angle of the universal joints in the swing arm) be reinforced."
Lee, it seems that you hadn't read my post #8, where I had posted this link: 440,000 BMW GS Bikes To Get An Extra Test At Their Next Inspection
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I don’t recall that. I remember he got BMW to replace it under warranty.
Yeah, I am afraid that I am guilty of confusing your guy with another one. Blame it on age!!! :) The one that I was talking about had about 90k miles on his wethead. Nonetheless, what you post is what had been responsible for me to change my tune about taking the drive apart to lube it.

Many years ago, I used to recommend that you leave the drive completely alone. I figured that the risk of not resealing in the boot area is too great, ASSUMING that BMW had done a proper job of sealing on their production line. I have been very much aware of the early detection of rust, in the recent years, which is a very clear indication to me that BMW have lots of QA issues on their production line, and the sealing are sometimes not done properly! So, over the past few years, I am saying that perhaps you should take it apart, and give strong warning about resealing everything tight, as seen in prior posts! We can't ASSUME that BMW will do a good job anymore.

BTW, I came to the conclusion that the splines doesn't need lubing, from servicing my previous 2007 RT. For that bike, and I believe for the '05 and '06 as well, BMW did NOT put in a drain plug for the Final Drive. Just a fill plug (there is a story about that). So, if you want to change the oil of the FD, which I did when doing the 12k miles service, you have to disconnect the FD, and "drop" it 90 deg to use the fill plug as drain plug. That also means that the spline joint has to be disconnected. Like most people, I also have my spline lube grease ready. However, just one look at the spline told me that the thing does NOT need to be lubed at all. What I saw was, first, the spline joint was completely DRY. No lubricant of any sorts had been applied from the factory! More important, when I closely examine the spline, I saw absolutely NO rub marks anywhere on its surface! Think about that last one! The full power of the bike is transmitted through that joint to the rear wheel, and if there were any rubbing at all (the reason why you would want to apply lubrication) between the surfaces, you would see some serious rub marks, and I saw none.

So, go ahead and get at the spline, if you wish, and I will be most interested to hear if you have found the same condition that I had back then. Personally, I haven't touched any part of the drive beside oil change of the FD, for any of my RTs after the original '07.
 

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I came to the conclusion that the splines doesn't need lubing,
You do realise that the distance between the gearbox output shaft and the FD input shaft changes as the suspension travels from fully extended to neutral to fully compressed. The FD spline is where that length change is happening. So there is a constant slide forward and backward on that spline while the bike is ridden, plus all the torque from the gearbox getting transferred to the FD. It's almost like a bearing in a way. Only the front spline joint is stationary where they circlip is holding the drive shaft in place.

So you choose not to grease that "bearing". Cool. Your bike. But it does make sense to reapply some grease onto the spline once in a while, like every second service or so.

This is not to be confused with the original spline greasing problem on the pre hex-head bikes that was in a different location, namely the engine output shaft and gearbox input shaft, where sliding action was not happening as the gearbox was bolted to the engine block.
 

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BTW, I think that I had posted this for you already when you first came on the forum, but if anybody want to see the official BMW maintenance check-list, you can go to this site, scroll down to find your bike model, and DL the various maintenance schedule (A&S is a BMW dealer in California): bmw_motorcycle_service_and_maintenance_schedules
I just follow the maintenance schedule in the owners manual.

Font Material property Parallel Pattern Paper
 

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So after all the rider reports, BMW starting a Service Campaign, and a 96 page threadfest I posted from ADV Rider, one is still going to drink the BMW Kool Aid and pretend this condition does not exist? Ignore the service because it is not listed on BMW Service?

As to your comment on the FD on older with no drain. Well when you separate the splines to drop the final drive every 12K you are ensuring it is not fretting solid. I can not believe one would not lube them at that time.

Again I don't care if people do or do not do this. It only affects them and their bikes longevity.

But for someone to outright say it does not need done is a disservice to all who read that post.

I still believe this is once and done. I will pull mine again at 30K and am sure it will be fine since it was done as new. BMW may even have started to lube the 1250 since they are coming with the duckbill plugs installed.

This has a long way to play out so we will see as it continues how many DS are replaced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
You do realise that the distance between the gearbox output shaft and the FD input shaft changes as the suspension travels from fully extended to neutral to fully compressed. The FD spline is where that length change is happening. So there is a constant slide forward and backward on that spline while the bike is ridden, plus all the torque from the gearbox getting transferred to the FD. It's almost like a bearing in a way. Only the front spline joint is stationary where they circlip is holding the drive shaft in place.

So you choose not to grease that "bearing". Cool. Your bike. But it does make sense to reapply some grease onto the spline once in a while, like every second service or so.

This is not to be confused with the original spline greasing problem on the pre hex-head bikes that was in a different location, namely the engine output shaft and gearbox input shaft, where sliding action was not happening as the gearbox was bolted to the engine block.
Of course! You guys are new to the forum, but this is a very old topic that had been gone over, and over. The evidence that I saw suggest that BMW engineers, in their redesign, did something that should have been done in the first place! Whether there are any movements in the spline is a function of the relative position of the pivot point of the swing-arm vs the pivot point of the drive-shaft (u-joint). It is very easy to model and simulate the motions in 3D CAD, and those positions could be easily optimized for minimum or even zero movement. What they did for the 1100/1150 drive-train is pure sloppy design. The pivot points are not only positioned poorly, but they didn't even bother to check that they don't become partly dis-engaged as they occasionally did, which was why you guys have to keep the joint well lubed so that the two half will easily snap back instead of hanging up and destroy itself! Very, very easy to simulate and check in CAD.

BTW, the primary purpose of spline connection is to provide "zero-profile" method of connecting/disconnecting drive components. It is incidental that the type of connection as allow some lateral movements. It definitely NOT a bearing by a very long shot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
BTW, take a good look at the picture of the spline that Lee had posted above. No sign of lubrication, AND will somebody point out the rub marks for me? So much power going through the joint surely would leave SOMETHING???? here's a blow-up:
Automotive design Gas Rim Auto part Metal
 

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BTW, take a good look at the picture of the spline that Lee had posted above. No sign of lubrication, AND will somebody point out the rub marks for me? So much power going through the joint surely would leave SOMETHING???? here's a blow-up:
View attachment 179733
This is a brand new 17.5 GS with 25 miles on it. Look at the rust! It is DRY.

You know I don't disagree with you much but in this case you are being a total ass on this because you did not do it or beleive it needs done.. How come ther are hundreds of rust welded splines reported?

Go on over to ADV rider and try to talk the BS that is coming out of your mouth. You know you are not always right? If data points and a Service Campaign do not convince you then keep you head in the sand while sipping BMW Kool Aid and dont talk BS when it comes to saving ones FD/DS.

Here look at this one you dont even have to blow it up.




If you got something to say, say it over in the relevant thread here. There you can state all the reasons your going to instruct people to not service their FD/DS and see how many responses you get there. You keep posting in this thread when there is a thread for it, so are you affraid to post in a revelant thread and hide in this one?
 

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I am just about ready to do the 12k miles maintenance on my 2021 RT, and I thought that I would share something with the community that should save some money for those who also do their own maintenance. The major differences between the 12k and 6k miles maintenance are that for the 12k miles, you need to change the FD oil, which is extremely simple. Next, you are supposed to change the air filter, which is somewhat of a PITA, since lots of fairing and trims needs to be removed, but otherwise quite simple. Of course, you also have to do the valve clearance check. The last big thing that one is supposed to do is to change the spark-plugs. This last part is what this thread is about!

BMW specifies Iridium spark-plugs for the 1250 boxers. Specifically, the NGK LMAR8AI-10. The very first question that some will ask right away is why change at only 12k miles? That's an iridium plug, and it should last for at least 50k miles! Good question, and partial answer from me is that, it's what BMW specifies, and if you want to make sure that BMW have absolutely no reasons to deny you any potential warranty service in the future, then you should make the change, and keep the old plugs off the bike for future use if they looks to be OK. Keep reading. There some more data on this later.

The next question will come when you start shopping for the specified plug. Wow, why so expensive??? It seems that this plug is only used for the 1250 shiftcam boxers, as far as I can tell. Buying the plug from BMW dealer will cost you more than $30 each, in the US (our friends in the UK and EU countries have it at much lower price). Even Beemerboneyard, who usually have much lower price, is selling them for $54.38 per pair. The best price that I had found was here: Iridium Spark Plug - BMW R1200 2017on R1250; 12 12 8 560 811 / LMAR8AI-10 / NGK for $21.99 each. Can I do any better than this?

Well, in looking around I came across this: NGK LMAR8AI-8. BMW specifies it for the K1600s, and this plug is much cheaper. Best price that I have found was here: NGK 92288 LMAR8AI-8 Laser Iridium Spark Plug at $12.79 each!

So, what is the difference between the 2 plugs, since from the part number, that difference is in the last -10 vs -8. What does that really mean? It turns out that the two plugs are the same plug, with the -10 having the electrode gaped at 1 mm from the factory, while the -8 are gaped from the factory at 0.8 mm. Just for an FYI, here are the meanings of the rest of the NGK part number, specifically as applied to the NGK LMAR8AI-10 :

L- Plug Type Thread Reach: 26.5mm
MA- Metal Shell
R-Resistor
Heat Rating Number 8
A
-Firing End Construction Special Design
I-Firing End Construction Single Iridium Spark Plug

Stock Number - 94319
Type - Laser Iridium
Plug Diameter = 10mm
Thread Length = 26.5mm
Hex Nut = 14mm
Heat Range = 8
Resistor = YES

How you use the above information is up to you, as always! It's your bike. However, should you decide to buy the -8 and open up the gap to 1 mm, then I should caution you to be very careful in how you do that. The center iridium electrode is very thin and delicate. You absolutely need to use the proper spark-plug gaping tool to do the job.

Last note is that, I always refer to posts in Adventure Riders Forum for accurate technical information. Those guys are very much more knowledgeable in the technical areas than in any other forums. I had discovered the meaning of the dash-number from there, specifically from this thread: 2019 R1250GSA Spark Plugs/Unicorns? I think that it's worthwhile for you to at least scan over the posts. Now, back to why you might want to consider changing the plugs as early as 12k miles, or at the very least give them a very good examination keeping your riding environment in mind, you need to read post #71 on page 4.

Ride safe!
The only difference between the NGK LMAR8AI-8 and NGK LMAR8AI-10 is the preset gap. The -8 is roughly .032 and the - 10 is roughly .040. BMW wants you to set the gap at .040 . You can buy a box of 4 NGK LMAR8AI-8's for $23.99, less than the cost of one from a BMW dealer, and set the gap yourself......................
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
The only difference between the NGK LMAR8AI-8 and NGK LMAR8AI-10 is the preset gap. The -8 is roughly .032 and the - 10 is roughly .040. BMW wants you to set the gap at .040 . You can buy a box of 4 NGK LMAR8AI-8's for $23.99, less than the cost of one from a BMW dealer, and set the gap yourself......................
You didn't really read my post did you? ;)

It turned out that my -8 plugs just arrived in the post at around $18 each!
 

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You didn't really read my post did you? ;)

It turned out that my -8 plugs just arrived in the post at around $18 each!
Yes I did read your post and at $18 each your still getting ripped off as I'm buying mine for $6 each .........................from a local Triumph motorcycle dealer and repair shop ..........................
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Lee, take this as from a friend, since over the years, I know you pretty well. Why do you think that I had always refused to get into a "debate" with you? Whenever there are difference in "opinions" you always let emotion take over and get angry as you are now! You have to calm down and actually use your head instead of your emotions, and do get rid of the ostrich-syndrome of ignoring all the facts and data that may oppose your opinion! I still consider you a friend, because deep down, I know that you mean well. It's a very big thing to go out and buy all the cam-timing tools and then did timing checks for all those riders for free. Just an example.

Now, back to the issue, and I will try very hard to be gentle, as always. As I had mentioned in another thread, and Hati had seen it - opinions are merely opinions, and are totally meaningless unless supported by facts! So far, neither you nor Hati had provided any facts, and in later post I will sum up what facts I have provided so far! I had already addressed the issue of splines being rusted together solid, but can get back to it again later, because that fact actually support my notion that there are no rubbing in the splines.

In the meantime, do you know what rub marks you should see IF there are rubbing? Let me say again, and as echoed by Hati, that the full power of the bike passes through this one joint to get to the rear wheel. So, if there are any movements between the male and female splines, you definitely will see "rub marks". The rub marks will be on one face, and one face only of every single ridge of both male and female splines, where they bear against one another to transfer the power from one side of the drive to the other. THAT is what I DIDN'T see when I looked at the splines on my previous '07 RT, as mentioned in earlier post! I didn't see that in your picture.

To amplify it further here's a picture of the spline off AdvRider, and it's of JVB's own bike, after 12k miles. See any rub marks?

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Automotive lighting Vehicle


Is that a hexhead drive? Looks just like my previous '07 RT!

. . . . . and here's another picture, this time from the BMWST forum (which I had stopped to support):

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Rim Automotive design Automotive wheel system


Rub marks?
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Yes I did read your post and at $18 each your still getting ripped off as I'm buying mine for $6 each .........................from a local Triumph motorcycle dealer and repair shop ..........................
That's pretty good! I will remember that for the next time.
 

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What is the prevalance of rusted splines causing any problems with wetheads? This is really important to know because there is a huge range of exposure that varies greatly amongst wethead owners. My '16 RT has been exposed to dry climates in large part for its 6y and 50,280 miles. It's been in heavy rain twice, once for 30 min and once for about an hour. The boots have never been removed. I won't bother with it to me it seems just way too different from the owner with a GS who lives in a humid climate, or rides off-road thru creekbeds or what have you, and that latter would have to have much greater risk for an adverse event than I might.
 

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neither you nor Hati had provided any facts
Speaking of facts, I have been wrong in regards to the drive shaft sliding on the spline on our bikes

"Normal" drive shafts, such as one on a rear wheel drive truck with traditional rigid axle/leaf spring suspension will slide as the distance changes, like a triangle, but because BMW uses paralever, the distance between splines relative to one another do not change, well not significantly anyway. So the lubing is simply to prevent corrosion.
 

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Lee, take this as from a friend, since over the years, I know you pretty well. Why do you think that I had always refused to get into a "debate" with you? Whenever there are difference in "opinions" you always let emotion take over and get angry as you are now! You have to calm down and actually use your head instead of your emotions, and do get rid of the ostrich-syndrome of ignoring all the facts and data that may oppose your opinion! I still consider you a friend, because deep down, I know that you mean well. It's a very big thing to go out and buy all the cam-timing tools and then did timing checks for all those riders for free. Just an example.

Now, back to the issue, and I will try very hard to be gentle, as always. As I had mentioned in another thread, and Hati had seen it - opinions are merely opinions, and are totally meaningless unless supported by facts! So far, neither you nor Hati had provided any facts, and in later post I will sum up what facts I have provided so far! I had already addressed the issue of splines being rusted together solid, but can get back to it again later, because that fact actually support my notion that there are no rubbing in the splines.

In the meantime, do you know what rub marks you should see IF there are rubbing? Let me say again, and as echoed by Hati, that the full power of the bike passes through this one joint to get to the rear wheel. So, if there are any movements between the male and female splines, you definitely will see "rub marks". The rub marks will be on one face, and one face only of every single ridge of both male and female splines, where they bear against one another to transfer the power from one side of the drive to the other. THAT is what I DIDN'T see when I looked at the splines on my previous '07 RT, as mentioned in earlier post! I didn't see that in your picture.

To amplify it further here's a picture of the spline off AdvRider, and it's of JVB's own bike, after 12k miles. See any rub marks?

View attachment 179735

Is that a hexhead drive? Looks just like my previous '07 RT!

. . . . . and here's another picture, this time from the BMWST forum (which I had stopped to support):

View attachment 179736

Rub marks?
Take it to the relevant thread. Like I said your in here hiding and spouting pure shit and wont bring it out into the open forum to a correct thread.

As always you try to dazzle with Bull Shit rather then say you are wrong. YOU ARE WRONG! I am not sure how many people and how many forums and even BMW mesuring movement to determine if the shaft is bad and yet you still try your BS Engeanering Degree crap to make it come out you are right. Well you are not and a complete Asshat on this matter and many others including this plug thread. You really have no idea what you are doing or saying. Hell you dont even spin a wrench.

I would suggest that NO ONE take any advice from you on this FD in the off topic thread , and your spark plug revelation thread is just shit and has been gone over many times with the correct information not the shit you keep saying here to try and make yourself look right.

AS I say man up and post your total wrong shit in the correct thread. That way when the hundreds of people who read it will know your are just plain full of shit. But no you keep posting here and hiding as no one is going to see your moronic posts on FD/DS. Be a man and post over there then I can quote the thread to all the people I know who have been through this to post some pictures to post up for you.

And if you are so sure drop yoour FD and post pictures in the thread it should be in.

Here you go from ADV rider post on a 21 RT:
So, I got doing the Diff fluid on my 2021 RS with 20k miles. I checked my driveshaft, and I had a swing arm full of water. and rusted diff. I checked the water thinking it maybe from washing it. This water without a doubt is condensation. Honestly if you have a R1250 get drilling breather hole and packing that driveshaft/diff area full of grease. I called the dealership up being I have the extended unlimited milage warranty and 16k serves pack. He said he had already submitted me for the service action being I had asked about a year ago about water collection in the swing arm, and submitted me for a warranty on the Diff. So, we will see if BMW will honor it. I know the service action is only on GS but R/RS/GS/RT are all the same bikes. I would think being I had asked, and it's noted in the record, and this bike was 100% serviced early this is 100% manufacture defect that should be warrantied.
View attachment 179762

So stick you head in the sand, or up your ass, but then you would have to pull it out first and stop talking your shit. This is a real issue with a real service that needs done. Not your opnion which are like ass holes, but FACT!
 
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