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Discussion Starter #1
Just sold my Softail Deluxe a few months ago and purchased an '05 KLT. It was running slightly on the rough side and the seller suggested adding Seafoam to new gas, since it had been sitting, which I did. It has 42k miles and I've added about 400 miles in the two weeks I've had it. Have to say it's been running pretty good other than an occasional bump at idle that felt like a cylinder misfire.
Two days ago, I was sitting at a red light and when the light turned green, the engine stalled when I started to take off. When I'd restart the engine, it would continue to stall. Each time, it would start again easily but as soon as I increase the RPM, it would stall.
After trailering it back home, it would start easily with a smooth idle and I realized it would run if I rolled the throttle to a point where it would redline if I didn't let off. It wouldn't stall if I kept it between 3k and 7k rpm's but if I got it around 1.6k-2k, it would kill the engine. I also noticed that when I put the bike in reverse, the rpm's wouldn't increase and there were no dash light indicating a problem.

Previous work by seller:
Installed braided brake lines.
Changed the fuel quick connects.
Changed all fluids and filters.
Removed canister.

I've cheched the TVA and the bolts are tight and the wire plug is secure. Anyone have any idea what the problem might be?Any suggestions for a solution?
Thanks for your help!
 

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Just sold my Softail Deluxe a few months ago and purchased an '05 KLT. It was running slightly on the rough side and the seller suggested adding Seafoam to new gas, since it had been sitting, which I did. It has 42k miles and I've added about 400 miles in the two weeks I've had it. Have to say it's been running pretty good other than an occasional bump at idle that felt like a cylinder misfire.
Two days ago, I was sitting at a red light and when the light turned green, the engine stalled when I started to take off. When I'd restart the engine, it would continue to stall. Each time, it would start again easily but as soon as I increase the RPM, it would stall.
After trailering it back home, it would start easily with a smooth idle and I realized it would run if I rolled the throttle to a point where it would redline if I didn't let off. It wouldn't stall if I kept it between 3k and 7k rpm's but if I got it around 1.6k-2k, it would kill the engine. I also noticed that when I put the bike in reverse, the rpm's wouldn't increase and there were no dash light indicating a problem.

Previous work by seller:
Installed braided brake lines.
Changed the fuel quick connects.
Changed all fluids and filters.
Removed canister.

I've cheched the TVA and the bolts are tight and the wire plug is secure. Anyone have any idea what the problem might be?Any suggestions for a solution?
Thanks for your help!
Welcome to the forum Bomajoma. Could be a few things causing this. First I would open the tank and make sure that when you look in and turn the key on, do you see any excessive movement of fuel in the tank? The connecting fuel lines inside the tank are made of rubber or some submersible compound but they don't hold up as long in the ethanol laced fuels so there is a possibility one has sprung a leak and is not maintaining proper fuel pressure in the line. This will definitely affect the running of the bike and if bad enough, will keep it from running at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Gordon, I'll take a look. May try to get a gauge on the fuel line. Pressure should be around 49-50 psi, right?
 

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Thanks Gordon, I'll take a look. May try to get a gauge on the fuel line. Pressure should be around 49-50 psi, right?
Yes for a T in line. If you dead head it, it can go much higher. Also make sure you are on the pressure side, as if I need to say that ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Would a problem with the fuel pump, filter or one of the lines allow easy start and smooth idle while causing it to stall with slight rpm increase but still allow it to to rev high?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
And the lack of rpm increase in reverse has ne confused.
 

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And the lack of rpm increase in reverse has ne confused.
You should get the increase rpm in reverse only when you have the starter button pushed and are actively backing up, but it should be there. The starter button (during reverse) is routed to the reverser controller that then sends a signal to the ECU to bump up the idle. It, along with the stalling could be a result of a failure of the Throttle Valve Actuator. More reliable troubleshooting will require assistance from some one with a GS-911 diagnostic unit. John (user sailor) also has great experience in this area and perhaps he will chime in to assist.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks John!
I just tried to send Sailor a PM asking about the TVA but because I haven't submitted 15 posts, the message wouldn't go thru. I read his reply written in 2014 to a post titled, "If it was a horse, I'd shoot it". He mentioned testing the TVA by putting the bike in reverse. By all means Sailor, chime in please!
I took out the fuel pump and I'm waiting on a filter, nylon hoses and the sleeve that goes below the pump. The filter arms and hoses had a white, powdery residue on them and the sleeve had a smalll hole. Not sure what effect that will have but I'm sure it won't hurt.
I'm open to any ideas!
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter #9
One more thing....I noticed the jacket on the two small wires on the fuel pump had pieces missing. Could this cause a problem.
While I have the tank off, what's the best way to clean it out?
 

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Hey Bomajoma!
Congratulations on your new KLT, one of the best touring bikes available (in my opinion), especially if you like to ride two up.
I've had my LT since 2007, and it has been dead nuts reliable.

It sounds like the PO of your bike knew there was something not right ..... thus the "sea foam" suggestion.
That stuff is to make you feel good. Doesn't really fix anything.

changing the internal tank fuel lines is good preventive MTX.

My money is on chaffed spark plug wires and / or worn out plugs. Always go for the simple stuff first.

Also make sure that the fuel tank is vented to atmosphere & the purge hose from the manifold is plugged properly (PO did a canisterectomy?) ensure no vacuum leaks.

Make sure to let us know how it goes!

Rand
 

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Thanks John!
I just tried to send Sailor a PM asking about the TVA but because I haven't submitted 15 posts, the message wouldn't go thru. I read his reply written in 2014 to a post titled, "If it was a horse, I'd shoot it". He mentioned testing the TVA by putting the bike in reverse. By all means Sailor, chime in please!
I took out the fuel pump and I'm waiting on a filter, nylon hoses and the sleeve that goes below the pump. The filter arms and hoses had a white, powdery residue on them and the sleeve had a smalll hole. Not sure what effect that will have but I'm sure it won't hurt.
I'm open to any ideas!
Bob

Bob,
Although I am familiar with the Motronic EFI system of these K1200, troubleshooting at a distance is always more difficult. In addition, since you bought this 2005 recently from a previous owner (my understanding), we CANNOT assume as much about maintenance history / modifications done / change in behavior over time...

Based on this sentence you wrote in your 1st post:
"It wouldn't stall if I kept it between 3k and 7k rpm's but if I got it around 1.6k-2k, it would kill the engine."
I would guess it is NOT fuel-pressure related (not pump.. or damaged hoses inside tank.. or filter... or fuel-pressure regulator). In most cases, these would make symptoms worse when more fuel is needed at higher RPM.

Of course, above text is based on my assumption that bike can accelerate and has good power at higher RPM - correct ??

MORE Questions: you said you remove the charcoal canister (in your 1st post).. HOW did you plug the hose(s) coming out of the 4 linked vacuum hoses at throttle bodies. A picture would help me confirm what you did. This can cause vacuum leak that may be part of your problem.


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About the fast idle not working in Reverse:
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Before we suspect TVA (idle actuator) is defective, we need to know IF you ALSO see an idle that is too low (normal idle in neutral when cold or warm).

Another important data point on a used bike: during last 2 years, there has a sudden popularity in buying a chip to upgrade Motronic unit in many K1200 forums (a guy on EBAY sells these). I do not have all the data to prove this yet, but I suspect he started from a base K1200RS chip and modified the mapping (in some cases). If this assumption is correct, it would explain why the reverser cannot command the ECU to increase idle on some K1200LT (as the base program of a K1200RS chip may not have this code - no reverse on a K1200RS).

If you have access to a GS911, we could do 2 things:
(1) read for any fault codes in memory
(2) check what version / part number for your Moronic chip (and prove if indeed it is a K1200RS code base)
 
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AS Sailor said, here is what to look for on the canister removal. The purge valve needs to be blocked so check the line that comes off it if it is still present and make sure it is properly plugged. I pulled the line completely out and placed a vacuum plug over it. Also, one or more of the 4 vacuum lines that come off the purge valve to the throttle body might be off causing some issues marked with red arrows. There are 4 but I can only see and mark 2 in my picture. I also have the TVA marked for location purposes.

Cleaning the tank is pretty easy with the pump removed. You can pull the sending tube off the top right and get a better view inside to make sure there is no debris but you can flush anything out through the pump opening.

If you decide you might need plug wires, Euro Motoelectric sells a nice NGK set with proper fitment for the LT.
 

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AS Sailor said, here is what to look for on the canister removal. The purge valve needs to be blocked so check the line that comes off it if it is still present and make sure it is properly plugged. I pulled the line completely out and placed a vacuum plug over it. Also, one or more of the 4 vacuum lines that come off the purge valve to the throttle body might be off causing some issues marked with red arrows. There are 4 but I can only see and mark 2 in my picture. I also have the TVA marked for location purposes.

Cleaning the tank is pretty easy with the pump removed. You can pull the sending tube off the top right and get a better view inside to make sure there is no debris but you can flush anything out through the pump opening.

If you decide you might need plug wires, Euro Motoelectric sells a nice NGK set with proper fitment for the LT.
Because all other K1200LT/RS outside the USA do not have a purge valve (and no canister), you are allowed to do this and make it even simpler:
(1) remove purge valve solenoid completely and leave the electrical connector attached to fuel-rail with a zip tie

(2) make sure you remove the white plastic "T" at middle section of vacuum-hoses. Just replace with a straight short section of new hose between vacuum of cylinder 2 and 3)

I have never tried to prove this assumption, but I suspect the Motronic ECU may change its behavior slightlly when/if it sees there is no "live" connection at the purge valve . Item 1 and 2 above is how all K1200RS/LT where designed and shipped from factory for Europe and Canada.
 
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Bob,
"I would guess it is NOT fuel-pressure related (not pump.. or damaged hoses inside tank.. or filter... or fuel-pressure regulator). In most cases, these would make symptoms worse when more fuel is needed at higher RPM."
While I admit you know more about these bikes then I'll ever know but I have a question about this statement. The reason is when I had a hole in an internal fuel line, my LT would hesitate and die on takeoff if the RPM was under 2k (particularly if the brown wire was connected and above 80°F). At higher RPM and at speed I had no issues and the only other discernible issue I saw was a reduction in fuel economy. Like your statement said, I would of expected the opposite due to the higher demand at higher RPM but that wasn't the case. Now I will admit that in all probability the engine was running lean due to the lack of fuel supply but not enough for me to notice from the seat of my pants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, when you have a small hole in the fuel pump/lines at idle the fuel regulator is dumping the excess fuel/pressure back to the tank due to low demand and moderate supply. When you throttle on, the engine momentarily starves due to the increase in fuel demand but lack of supply until the regulator can allow the proper fuel volume/pressure to get to the engine. By the time you get to >2k the regulator has closed allowing fuel to get to the engine in sufficient volume to run. While it has sufficient volume while running at higher RPM the AFR is lean due to the hole in the system.
 

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While I admit you know more about these bikes then I'll ever know but I have a question about this statement. The reason is when I had a hole in an internal fuel line, my LT would hesitate and die on takeoff if the RPM was under 2k (particularly if the brown wire was connected and above 80°F). At higher RPM and at speed I had no issues and the only other discernible issue I saw was a reduction in fuel economy. Like your statement said, I would of expected the opposite due to the higher demand at higher RPM but that wasn't the case. Now I will admit that in all probability the engine was running lean due to the lack of fuel supply but not enough for me to notice from the seat of my pants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, when you have a small hole in the fuel pump/lines at idle the fuel regulator is dumping the excess fuel/pressure back to the tank due to low demand and moderate supply. When you throttle on, the engine momentarily starves due to the increase in fuel demand but lack of supply until the regulator can allow the proper fuel volume/pressure to get to the engine. By the time you get to >2k the regulator has closed allowing fuel to get to the engine in sufficient volume to run. While it has sufficient volume while running at higher RPM the AFR is lean due to the hole in the system.
In your case, assuming that ONLY the damaged fuel hose in-tank was replaced to fix the problem, indeed yours would certainly be an oddball exception. At the minimum, It should / would have behaved bad at higher RPM or higher fuel demand when accelerating. I am ALWAYS willing to change / improve my knowledge, but I cannot apply an exception like yours unless I have all the data on what else was change to fix the issue.

Even for a car, on most EFI system having a return hose with a fuel-regulator in line (or in the rail), we can pretty much assume that:
(1) the fuel-pump has so much extra capacity that a lot is returned to the tank (unless you are full throttle for a longer period then you may meet 50% of a perfect new pump capacity)

(2) the fuel pressure is constant as the pump runs at same speed even if your engine is idling. However many bike and car have a small vacuum hose that goes to fuel pressure regulator to reduce regulator pressure at high vacuum (idling mainly). The K100 had this, but NOT the K1200LT.

OF COURSE, the above statements / facts do not apply to more recent EFI system that BMW has used on many models after 2004. These have no return fuel hose and instead have a device that serves as an electronic fuel pressure regulator (getting data / command from ECU depending on conditions).
 

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Because all other K1200LT/RS outside the USA do not have a purge valve (and no canister), you are allowed to do this and make it even simpler:
(1) remove purge valve solenoid completely and leave the electrical connector attached to fuel-rail with a zip tie

(2) make sure you remove the white plastic "T" at middle section of vacuum-hoses. Just replace with a straight short section of new hose between vacuum of cylinder 2 and 3)

I have never tried to prove this assumption, but I suspect the Motronic ECU may change its behavior slightlly when/if it sees there is no "live" connection at the purge valve . Item 1 and 2 above is how all K1200RS/LT where designed and shipped from factory for Europe and Canada.
I am going to be in that area soon as I plan on changing my external fuel line to steel braided polyurethane to handle the ethanol better along with some Jiffy Tite QD's so I can pull off the purge plug and see if it throws a code with my GS911 or changes behavior. I always assumed people left it connected to avoid the error. There has to be some code in the ECU to support the purge function so is that code also present in non US models?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks Rand! The PO had bought a Goldwing and the KLT had sat for a few months. I did test ride but noticed a slight miss from time to time. I called the seller and that's when he suggested the Seafoam.
The seller removed the canister and also changed the plugs and wires within the last 2k miles. I will remove the trunk and post pics of what the vaccum lines look like.
 

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I am going to be in that area soon as I plan on changing my external fuel line to steel braided polyurethane to handle the ethanol better along with some Jiffy Tite QD's so I can pull off the purge plug and see if it throws a code with my GS911 or changes behavior. I always assumed people left it connected to avoid the error. There has to be some code in the ECU to support the purge function so is that code also present in non US models?
To the best of my knowledge, there will be no problem and no faults even if purge valve is disconnected (assuming vacuum hoses are plugged / linked properly).

Although they added these components (canister, purge valve) for USA specs, they did NOT change the ECU part numbers for various markets.

Just for the K1200LT, they have produced at least 7 variants of Motronic ECU with different part numbers. In reality, now we only need 2 as they sell only the latest "improved" version in parts fiche (1 for 1st generation 1999-2004 and another for 2nd generation engine 2005-2009)

The ECU part number changes across various years was due to these reasons ONLY:
(1) imrovements and correction to codes / maps to fix issues with early models (1998-1999 mainly).
(2) addition of a 2nd map to fix issue related to brown wire
(3) change of engine design and HP on 2005-2009
(4) need to meet Euro3 emissions specs that became law in 2002 for motorcycles
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for your input Sailor. PO bought the bike from the original owner with about 35k on it. I think the first owner pretty much just put gas in it and rode.
I need to clarify the 3k-7k issue. When I give enough throttle to get above 2k, it will wind out the engine and I have to let off. When this happened on the road, I was able to get it up the road about 60' into an Auto Zone parking lot.
In reference to the canister, the PO removed it. I will remove the trunk and post pics.
As far as the lack of reverse idle increase, this started when the main problem of stalling with slight throttle increase started. Before that, rpm would increase in reverse when I hit the starter button.
I talked to the PO about aftermarket chips and he wasn't familiar and I don't think the original owner would have added one unless he paid to have it installed.
I might have to bite the bullit and buy a GS911.
I bought this bike because it was in my meager budget and hoped for the best. After the test ride, everything seemed good, so I took a chance. I've really enjoyed the 400 miles I've put on it and look forward to getting on the road again. Love this bike!
 

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Thanks for your input Sailor. PO bought the bike from the original owner with about 35k on it. I think the first owner pretty much just put gas in it and rode.
I need to clarify the 3k-7k issue. When I give enough throttle to get above 2k, it will wind out the engine and I have to let off. When this happened on the road, I was able to get it up the road about 60' into an Auto Zone parking lot.
In reference to the canister, the PO removed it. I will remove the trunk and post pics.
As far as the lack of reverse idle increase, this started when the main problem of stalling with slight throttle increase started. Before that, rpm would increase in reverse when I hit the starter button.
I talked to the PO about aftermarket chips and he wasn't familiar and I don't think the original owner would have added one unless he paid to have it installed.
I might have to bite the bullit and buy a GS911.
I bought this bike because it was in my meager budget and hoped for the best. After the test ride, everything seemed good, so I took a chance. I've really enjoyed the 400 miles I've put on it and look forward to getting on the road again. Love this bike!
OK... so I have a few facts I was not fully aware (I may I have read your previous post too fast):
We can NOW assume the fast idle did work as expected before (while using the reverse), so that rules out any mods of chip or any mistake/defect done prior to your ownership.

The combined symptoms that you describe (staling in certain conditions and lack of fast idle on reverser) could be due to an intake vacuum leak. These are not easy to track unless it is something simple like a vacuum hose that was disconnected by mistake. As always, we need to go back to what was changed / done since problem started. This troubleshooting rule is often the true cause in 50% cases, in particular when change in behavior was sudden (not progressive).

Based on your answer above, I am NOT sure yet if your bike:
(1) will idle properly when warm AND
(2) if the fast idle kicks in when started from cold on center-stand (at least 8 hours since stopped). Unless your parked temp is extremely hot, the RPM should increase to 1300-1500 depending how cold it for duration of about 5 to 20 seconds. NOTES: make sure throttle is fully closed forward at idle-stop before you turn ignition ON, and do NOT touch throttle during the starting sequence.


ABOUT the GS911: many members here have a GS911, so you should post a separate post for a request for help.
Something like "Need GS911 scan in xxxxxxx" where xxxxx is your city, state.
 
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