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post #1 of 65 Old Feb 13th, 2020, 5:22 pm Thread Starter
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New AirBag Tech

I see new airbag tech is available for the upcoming riding season. This is something I've been considering for a while but I want to make sure its comfortable, won't be too hot on hot days and most importantly....effective.

Below is information on the latest products from Alpinestars and Dainese. Interested in others thoughts and/or experiences.


https://www.alpinestars.com/tech-air-5-airbag-system


https://www.dainese.com/us/en/dainese/smart-jacket.html

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post #2 of 65 Old Feb 13th, 2020, 7:15 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I like the idea of no tether to the bike. I wonder how long the batteries last (meaning how many charges/years) and availability of replacement inflation canisters
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post #3 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 6:40 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Looks like good tech, but I prefer a simple tether. No battery's and foolproof.

I am a believer in Helite and they make jackets also. I prefer a stand alone vest but everyone has their own preference.

I like it and price wise it is in the ball park but still a bit more then a Helite (especially the one i have in the classifieds) and the Helite has more coverage.
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post #4 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 7:40 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

One of the reasons I went with the Helite is the extensive coverage around your neck and lower rear torso. This doesn't seem to add much beyond the basic torso? Could be wrong on that. But what I do know is that I won't be using a battery operated unit. I also very much like the ease in "recharging" the Helite with a simple screw in CO2 cannister. Fancy Argon canisters sound expensive.

The tether is something to deal with. I have forgotten to attach it a couple times. Went to a way to clip it to the bars so that should be less likely to happen again. I want 99.9% percent reliability with the air bag vest. Mechanical tether is MUCH more likely to work perfectly when needed. Charging a vest every other day sounds like something easy to forget. I have done that with my Sena units.......
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post #5 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 7:51 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Been using a Helite Turtle for around 4 years now, just upgraded to the latest vest, they do a trade in, in Europe. Connecting the tether is now second nature. Reason for me for a vest is I wear different jackets in winter and summer. I wouldn't attach the tether to the bars though, I followed the manufacturers recommendations and attached it under the seat to the frame on my RT and it then comes up at the front of the seat.
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post #6 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 12:33 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I don't know about the Alpinestar model but the Dainese must be returned to be reset in case of deployment @ $250 a pop.
My Hit-Air vest only requires a $30 CO2 cartrige that I can replace myself.

The Alpinestar battery is said to be good for 25 hours.

Ride safe!

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post #7 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 1:01 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Those vests look like they would be hot to wear. While it certainly isn't cooler with it, the Helite doesn't seem to be much warmer than without it.


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post #8 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 1:17 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I wore mine over a mesh jacket in 42įC temps last year. With or without the air vest, it's still F**** hot.

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post #9 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 1:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
One of the reasons I went with the Helite is the extensive coverage around your neck and lower rear torso. This doesn't seem to add much beyond the basic torso?
I noticed this as well about both the new Alpinestars and Dainese. I wonder if its because these vests are designed to go under a jacket maybe making the neck protection feature more difficult to incorporate in the design. Regardless, I agree and would prefer to have the extra protection especially around the neck.

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post #10 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 2:44 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I'll stick to my 3 year old Hit-Air vest with a tether. I wonder how much a airbag vest will expand under a tight fitting jacket.

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post #11 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 5:38 pm Thread Starter
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Looks like Klim is coming out with one later this year and it appears to have good neck protection. The price point for all of these is $699......almost like they are colluding on price. This new Klim vest goes for $399 then you have to buy the control unit for another $300 or rent it for $120/yr.

https://www.cyclenews.com/2020/01/ar...1-airbag-vest/



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post #12 of 65 Old Feb 14th, 2020, 6:58 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman View Post
I'll stick to my 3 year old Hit-Air vest with a tether. I wonder how much a airbag vest will expand under a tight fitting jacket.
It's a good question to ask. Could someone get hurt by the expansion of the vest?

Ride safe!
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post #13 of 65 Old Feb 15th, 2020, 1:27 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I have used Helite for about 4 years. The reasons I prefer Helite are it's mechanical so there's no electronics to fail, it has better overall airbag protection and the BIG one is that if you come off your bike, you can change the cO2 canister at the side of the road in under 5 minutes. My understanding is that all the electronic versions have to be shipped back to somewhere (I'm in Australia and there's probably only 1 or 2 places) which costs both time and money. I have had two slow speed come off's in the past 35 years - both in the past 4 years so was wearing Helite. I can personally say they work!! Both times I was back on the road within 20 minutes.

I am lucky enough to have a Helite vented summer jacket which I wear about half the year here when it's warmer plus a Turtle 2 High viz Airvest which fits over my BMW Jacket which I use when it's cooler or when I am on a trip.

I do about 20,000 kilometres (12,5000 miles) a year and never ride without a Helite on.
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post #14 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 3:58 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatM55 View Post
It's a good question to ask. Could someone get hurt by the expansion of the vest?
Not very likely as you need a fist of room around your body. You dont have anything coming at your face and it is just a tightening from the expansion. If you get to a BMW National they usually light a few off for people to try, and see. But that is a matter of timing. I asked when they were going to demonstrate and was there to watch. And it is like 5 mins and 25 bucks to put a new canister in so I carry a spare just in case.

I know you can get hurt much worse without the expansion of the vest so I will take my chances on expansion

Next to my C3 Pro it is the nicest piece of equipment I own.

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post #15 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 10:00 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by LAF View Post
Not very likely as you need a fist of room around your body. You dont have anything coming at your face and it is just a tightening from the expansion. If you get to a BMW National they usually light a few off for people to try, and see. But that is a matter of timing. I asked when they were going to demonstrate and was there to watch. And it is like 5 mins and 25 bucks to put a new canister in so I carry a spare just in case.

I know you can get hurt much worse without the expansion of the vest so I will take my chances on expansion

Next to my C3 Pro it is the nicest piece of equipment I own.
I'm aware of someone who thinks he suffered injuries to his rib cage in a tip-over fall with a Hit-Air vest. Because he wasn't pulled away from the bike, the vest didn't expand until he hit the ground and the tether did its job. He had severely bruised rib.
What I don't know, I wasn't there, was the injury due to the fall or the sudden expansion when he was on the ground? In other words, there was no room for the vest to expand externally, causing the ribs injury.

This hasn't changed my mind about wearing my Hit-Air vest. I always wear it when riding but it has me wondering.

Ride safe!
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post #16 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 10:22 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by PatM55 View Post
I'm aware of someone who thinks he suffered injuries to his rib cage in a tip-over fall with a Hit-Air vest. Because he wasn't pulled away from the bike, the vest didn't expand until he hit the ground and the tether did its job. He had severely bruised rib.
What I don't know, I wasn't there, was the injury due to the fall or the sudden expansion when he was on the ground? In other words, there was no room for the vest to expand externally, causing the ribs injury.

This hasn't changed my mind about wearing my Hit-Air vest. I always wear it when riding but it has me wondering.
I never thought of that--trying to get off the bike in a low speed tip over when you're tethered to it. I have to think the first impulse will be to get clear of the bike and therefore allow the air vest to deploy. God forbid if you should consider the vest tether during that moment and hesitate to get clear of the bike it could be a lot uglier than just letting the bike drop.

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post #17 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 10:48 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

The technology isn't perfect. There are going to be cases where someone thinks the air bag did something wrong.

I'll take a bruised rib over a broken back or neck!
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post #18 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 3:34 pm Thread Starter
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I certainly agree with all the benefits folks have mentioned regarding the mechanical tether systems and although they obviously provide improved protection versus none at all, I've had reservations regarding their effectiveness relative to the electronic versions. I remember seeing a crash test video a few years ago of a tethered vest that did not inflate prior to the dummy impacting the vehicle being t-boned. I then searched for and found videos of electronic systems that showed much quicker and more effective inflation times. One showed inflation of the bag before the dummy's butt even left the seat. I also read somewhere that the electronic systems can detect a low-side and inflate before the rider hits the ground, a condition that a tethered system would not respond to in time if the rider remained on/near the seat.

Now that prices have dropped on the electronic technology and its become more mature I've started looking at air bags again. Searching, I found the videos I saw several years ago and have included them below.

This is the video of the tethered system and it was the Helite vest:


Here are two videos of electronic systems:

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post #19 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 5:48 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Good stuff for sure. Thank you for sharing.

One thing is obvious, this should be shown to anyone who does not wear a helmet. Watching the helmet hits was almost as interesting as the vests.


Nothing is foolproof. To me it is another layer of protection. Nothing is going to take the place of skill and of course luck!

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post #20 of 65 Old Feb 16th, 2020, 5:58 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileHiRyder View Post
I certainly agree with all the benefits folks have mentioned regarding the mechanical tether systems and although they obviously provide improved protection versus none at all, I've had reservations regarding their effectiveness relative to the electronic versions. I remember seeing a crash test video a few years ago of a tethered vest that did not inflate prior to the dummy impacting the vehicle being t-boned. I then searched for and found videos of electronic systems that showed much quicker and more effective inflation times. One showed inflation of the bag before the dummy's butt even left the seat. I also read somewhere that the electronic systems can detect a low-side and inflate before the rider hits the ground, a condition that a tethered system would not respond to in time if the rider remained on/near the seat.

Now that prices have dropped on the electronic technology and its become more mature I've started looking at air bags again. Searching, I found the videos I saw several years ago and have included them below.
Fascinating videos. What I was struck with was how the poor Helite dummy landed straight down on his butt with a lot of down force. It appeared the vest did little or nothing there for pelvic and compression fractures. For the Alpinestars vest the dummy's head really took a direct hit ramming it into the upper spine as his head flopped backwards then appeared to rebound off of the inflated collar and ended up contributing to a direct hit. Probably way better than unadulterated whiplash though. I'm sure statistically speaking they provide very significant reductions in injury severity for many events but there will be many more where it just doesn't come into play enough to matter. I wonder if anyone is making a vest that goes overtop your riding jacket but like the helite has better armor and is electronically deployed. Not having to screw w/ the tether could be enough to entice me to commit to one of these and the jackets themselves look heavy and maybe too restrictive, and hot to boot in hot weather.

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post #21 of 65 Old Feb 17th, 2020, 6:34 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

There is a video doing the rounds, where a biker wearing a Helite vest has a head on with a car. It basically saved his life. No safety equipment will be 100%. Helite vests are now being issued to some UK Police Forces and Paramedics. Some Blood Bike groups have also now had them bought for them and a lot of my colleagues including myself now wear them. Personal choice though.
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post #22 of 65 Old Feb 17th, 2020, 8:21 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Fascinating videos. What I was struck with was how the poor Helite dummy landed straight down on his butt with a lot of down force. It appeared the vest did little or nothing there for pelvic and compression fractures. For the Alpinestars vest the dummy's head really took a direct hit ramming it into the upper spine as his head flopped backwards then appeared to rebound off of the inflated collar and ended up contributing to a direct hit. Probably way better than unadulterated whiplash though. I'm sure statistically speaking they provide very significant reductions in injury severity for many events but there will be many more where it just doesn't come into play enough to matter. I wonder if anyone is making a vest that goes overtop your riding jacket but like the helite has better armor and is electronically deployed. Not having to screw w/ the tether could be enough to entice me to commit to one of these and the jackets themselves look heavy and maybe too restrictive, and hot to boot in hot weather.
This was one type of accident and in a controlled environment.

None of us know how or when we might have an accident.

I was also amazed that a lot were hitting on their feet or heals so that makes me want to look at boots more carefully. I mean I did break a left ankle so flailing limbs are, what you get is what you get, in an accident.

The tether is a none issue as in a crash it either comes out and the vest deploys or not. There is no thinking of un tether or anything like that, if it happens to me I want to try and get to my back and ride it out. I have stepped off the bike a zillion times tethered and that is a non issue also. I have the tether fastened under the set and it gives me just enough room to stand on the pegs. As far as remembering I lay the tether up onto the set when I get off and it is that simple to remind me when getting back on.

The Helite has a awesome back pad so removing the one from your riding cloths adds a great deal of comfort for me. I am not sure what "more" armor would do because your jacket has shoulder and elbow pads.

I like it as I dont feel like the Michelin Man in it, it will burn the retinas of your eyeballs looking at it, and it gives me way better odds in an accident compared to not having one.

Again not everyone's cup of tea, but I like it and as my picture shows I do and can not afford another one like the one I took. The neck was the worst of course but 3 broken ribs hurt like hell, ALL the time! I know I was a sight, broken neck, broken left ankle, broken right wrist and I am right handed so think about what that means using the bathroom.

My point is I dont think I would have had the neck injury, or the broken ribs and I could have been real happy with that, as I said the ribs are a killer as you get no peace unless you are out on drugs and the neck speaks for itself.

No guarantee in this sport so we just need to mitigate them to something we can rationalize and live with for ourselves. Back in 03 or 05 when I rode my 03 Sportster and my 05 Road Glide, t-shirt and jeans. No helmet here in PA and no gear other then good "work" boots. Then I came into the BMW world and ATGATT took over and I have been buying up every since. There are levels of protection and sadly it costs to protect yourself with the best.

I am on a fixed income as my work history stopped in 2010 about 15 years too early! I was fortunate as I have worked since I was 15 and had worked my way up form a Journeymen Glazier (glass guy) to a Network Administrator and I made good money so the retirement I had been saving gave me a decent income for being 15 years early.

My point is not everyone can afford 660 bucks for a vest and then 700 for a new helmet and 1000 for a good jacket and pants, and 400 for boots and on and on. I bought up as I said, Olympia was my first gear, then I bought up to Aero Stitch, my first helmet was a HJC I think and now I would wear nothing but my C3 Pro.

Spend the money for gear and think about what is the best bang for the buck. You dont have to have the top of the line but do not shun new technology like a air vest to put a part on your bike or even buy up in clothing.

A loss of income for only a few days will pay for a vest so I see no downside to spending the money.
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post #23 of 65 Old Feb 17th, 2020, 10:39 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Well, it's amazing you're back at it and no wonder you really do wear ATGATT. I'm not quite there yet as I don't have the air vest but I inch closer all the time, and as I've said I don't think you can say ATGATT w/o air bag technology. So it's MTGATT for me currently--"most of the gear"! I have always used high top TCX boots and good gloves and all of the other ATTATT stuff. I am intrigued by the idea of a vest w/ all of the neck collar protection but I do find myself looking at the argon electronic deployment systems with, for example, alpinestar's tech air jacket and its 25ms deployment time which will add a bit more protection in the right scenario. Plus losing the tether I can see adds a little more incentive. The alpinestar jackets looks very restrictive and hot to me so I don't think I want to go there. So far I've not come close to needing a deployment except when I hit the bicyclist, or he hit me, but fortunately for me and my RT I didn't go down in the grazed collision.

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post #24 of 65 Old Feb 17th, 2020, 12:08 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by alegerlotz View Post
I like the idea of no tether to the bike. I wonder how long the batteries last (meaning how many charges/years) and availability of replacement inflation canisters
The battery stays charged for 30h of 'active' riding it is claimed by Alpinestars, and recharges in 6h. How long with it last is probably about like all other Li-ion batteries. The Li-ion battery in my Sena is now 6y/o and still works fine. I'm guessing the amount of current involved, the load involved, would be similar to that involved in the Tech Air 5 vest system. Right now when your TA5 deploys you must send in the vest to Torrence CA for a 1 week turn around. The presumption is you need to have the vest inspected as well as argon replaced so when they return it it is somewhat certified to continue to function as intended. Shortly after this model arrives next month they will provide training to various dealers across the US for servicing these and the CS guy I talked to at Alpinestars gave me the name of two shops near me in Denver that are on their roster to get up and running.

Also, its bluetooth connectivity will alert your cell phone app that there is a new update available to download. This is great because their system creates detailed logs of all sorts of data with every deployment so they continue to improve performance, and you can therefore keep up with the latest w/o needing to buy the latest. Since street rider deployments are so low (1:10 compared to track use) they kindly offer free service for the first 6 months. After that it's $179 per deployment. I've had exactly zero events to deploy this type of device in almost 70K miles, so this is a cost not worth considering.

I do wonder about how warm the thing would be. In Denver that is not necessarily going to be a bad thing! But in SoCal perhaps another story. At least it can go under a mesh jacket so that will help for sure.

I'm intrigued by this model for its touted superior deployment speed, lack of a tether, but on the downside it may not provide quite as good protection as the tethered models do, perhaps. Again, that could be partially offset by faster deployment time.

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post #25 of 65 Old Feb 17th, 2020, 2:14 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Sounds promising, not too bothered about the deployment time. They are quoting 24ms, Helite tether quotes less than 100ms. I really don't think the difference in deployment time will mean much.

I had my vest deployed when a car rear ended me at slow speed when I was stationary at some traffic lights. First I knew about it, I was lying in the road with the vest deployed. No injuries and the vest then went down, it was over my textile jacket but under my hi viz work jacket. Worked well. No damage and it took about 10 mins to replace the canister and make it active again. Spare canister which I had, cost me £15. I will look at the latest kit, but for now am happy with Helite. Interestingly they are refusing to go with blue tooth tech for equestrian and motorcycle vests and jackets, but they do have a bluetooth system for a new range of kit for the elderly that stops pelvic and hip injuries during falls.
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post #26 of 65 Old Feb 17th, 2020, 6:08 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Sounds promising, not too bothered about the deployment time. They are quoting 24ms, Helite tether quotes less than 100ms. I really don't think the difference in deployment time will mean much.
Yes, but the Helite does not initiate its deployment until the tether is close to fully stretched whereas, according to CS at Alpinestars, as all of the embedded accelerometers measure data every 1ms and so initial deployment is much faster than tethered approaches. Certainly plausible enough at face value though I don't know the specifics. Their example will be you won't even hit the bars or windscreen before deployment happens, whereas not necessarily the case w/ tethered solutions.

Here's a hypothetical: at say 50mph, you hit a deer which absorbs some energy and essentially slows you as a projectile, to say 38mph. At 38mph you are traveling 0.669 inches/millisecond. I didn't double check it but I think it's correct. Irrespective of the initiation time of tether v digital, the 100ms deployment translates to 67 inches of horizontal travel, versus 17 inches with the 25ms deployment of the argon system. So yes, seems plausible enough especially when you factor in deployment initiation time.
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post #27 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 7:19 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Just came across the pricing in the UK for the service of the Alpinestars tech air 5. There is currently only one authorised service site. They recommend the vest is serviced twice a year at £60 a go. And if its deployed £270 for a service and recharge. Hopefully they will provide a loan vest when its away for servicing like Helite do. I do like the tech though, bit priceer than Helite.
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post #28 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 7:56 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Yes, but the Helite does not initiate its deployment until the tether is close to fully stretched whereas, according to CS at Alpinestars, as all of the embedded accelerometers measure data every 1ms and so initial deployment is much faster than tethered approaches. Certainly plausible enough at face value though I don't know the specifics. Their example will be you won't even hit the bars or windscreen before deployment happens, whereas not necessarily the case w/ tethered solutions.

Here's a hypothetical: at say 50mph, you hit a deer which absorbs some energy and essentially slows you as a projectile, to say 38mph. At 38mph you are traveling 0.669 inches/millisecond. I didn't double check it but I think it's correct. Irrespective of the initiation time of tether v digital, the 100ms deployment translates to 67 inches of horizontal travel, versus 17 inches with the 25ms deployment of the argon system. So yes, seems plausible enough especially when you factor in deployment initiation time.
That sounds like the electronic approach is much better.

BUT...sensors don't work quite like your example. The tether works with brute force, and assuming it is attached without excessive slack it should work soon after impact. Will your legs hit something first? Don't know. Examples show inflation well before major impacts so it does a pretty good job.

The 25 ms deployment time...starts WHEN? Not at the moment the deer first touches. Because these devices cannot simply go off when you downshift abruptly, or hit the brakes very hard, they cannot activate until the body slows faster than it should be under any riding circumstance. So it is entirely plausible the electronic version might not activate until you actually contact the bars or other part of the bike. That it then inflates quicker is a good thing, but one wonders if they HAD to make it activate quicker once triggered due to the fact it may activate later?

I don't doubt there are advantages to both systems. But I am not ready to claim one is actually much better in real world use.
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post #29 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 9:37 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
That sounds like the electronic approach is much better.

BUT...sensors don't work quite like your example. The tether works with brute force, and assuming it is attached without excessive slack it should work soon after impact. Will your legs hit something first? Don't know. Examples show inflation well before major impacts so it does a pretty good job.

The 25 ms deployment time...starts WHEN? Not at the moment the deer first touches. Because these devices cannot simply go off when you downshift abruptly, or hit the brakes very hard, they cannot activate until the body slows faster than it should be under any riding circumstance. So it is entirely plausible the electronic version might not activate until you actually contact the bars or other part of the bike. That it then inflates quicker is a good thing, but one wonders if they HAD to make it activate quicker once triggered due to the fact it may activate later?

I don't doubt there are advantages to both systems. But I am not ready to claim one is actually much better in real world use.
Just to clear some things here, the air vest won't protect your legs and front pelvic area from injury. That is not the intent behind their design. The only airbag that does that is the one mounted on Honda Golwings.
Air vests are intended to protect you if and when you are thrown from the bike. They are designed to protect your thorso and neck area.

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post #30 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 10:52 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
That sounds like the electronic approach is much better.

BUT...sensors don't work quite like your example. The tether works with brute force, and assuming it is attached without excessive slack it should work soon after impact. Will your legs hit something first? Don't know. Examples show inflation well before major impacts so it does a pretty good job.

The 25 ms deployment time...starts WHEN? Not at the moment the deer first touches. Because these devices cannot simply go off when you downshift abruptly, or hit the brakes very hard, they cannot activate until the body slows faster than it should be under any riding circumstance.
The example only stated what is known--data is read and interpreted every 1ms, and that inflation time between the two approaches goes from 25ms to 100ms between the two systems, and that translates to 17" versus 67" of unobstructed projectile time at 38mph that's all.

Did you look at the videos above? Here are screen shots immediately after deployment initiation for each. The Helite dummy's right knee hits the upper fork tube just prior to deployment, whereas in the Tech Air video the dummy hasn't even left the seat yet when the device is fully inflated so there is no contest in this regard in this example. Does it matter? is the real question I agree. It will in some scenarios but in many more it likely won't.





Here's a good article about this technology at RideApart:

https://www.rideapart.com/articles/2...-airbag-suits/

In the end from what I've learned I'd like to see a Helite Turtle type external vest with the same non-tethered deployment system which is very well proven. And all else being equal (it isn't, I see the non-tethered wireless to be superior from everything I read), the tether isn't a good thing it's just a necessary inconvenience.

To me, when I look at the type of protection afforded by the turtle vest versus the Tech Air vest inside the jacket one may get better protection in some areas as has been mentioned from the turtle vest type external design. So much depends on the exact crash dynamic, so probably the only thing you can conclude is: either one is better than none!

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post #31 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 2:06 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Just to clear some things here, the air vest won't protect your legs and front pelvic area from injury. That is not the intent behind their design. The only airbag that does that is the one mounted on Honda Golwings.
Air vests are intended to protect you if and when you are thrown from the bike. They are designed to protect your thorso and neck area.
Well they disagree with you and so do I. If the vest fits you correctly it will protect pelvic and hips.

This from their site:
"If a rider is wearing the Turtle 2 in an accident, the vest provides semi-rigid head and neck protection, as well as incredible support to the spine, chest, ribs, internal organs, and even provides direct hip and pelvic protection."

Mine was fitted at a show by them so I trust them. Mine fits to protect my hips and my pelvis.

Unless you mean in an accident where you are not ejected from the motorcycle?

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post #32 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 6:36 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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That sounds like the electronic approach is much better.

BUT...sensors don't work quite like your example. The tether works with brute force, and assuming it is attached without excessive slack it should work soon after impact. Will your legs hit something first? Don't know. Examples show inflation well before major impacts so it does a pretty good job.
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Well they disagree with you and so do I. If the vest fits you correctly it will protect pelvic and hips.

This from their site:
"If a rider is wearing the Turtle 2 in an accident, the vest provides semi-rigid head and neck protection, as well as incredible support to the spine, chest, ribs, internal organs, and even provides direct hip and pelvic protection."

Mine was fitted at a show by them so I trust them. Mine fits to protect my hips and my pelvis.

Unless you mean in an accident where you are not ejected from the motorcycle?
My comment was regarding realshelby's question that I have highlighted.
Yes, if you hit the tank or handlebars, your air vest won't have time to protect you. If your legs hit the handlebars, they aren't protected by your air-vest.
Air-vest or airbags somewhat protect the side of your hips and coccyx area when ejected. It depends on the model you choose. Here are pics of a few of them.

Helite Turtle 2:


Hit-Air:


Helite Leather Air-bag Jacket:


Alpinestar Tech Air Airbag Jacket:
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post #33 of 65 Old Feb 18th, 2020, 11:58 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Pretty cool stuff, from Revzilla site:

Does the Tech-Air 5 System require ongoing maintenance and/or calibration by Alpinestars? If so, how often does it need to be performed and what is the cost for the service? Also, what is the cost to have the system refurbished after an air bag deployment?

Dan R on Jan 11, 2020
BEST ANSWER: The system does not require any ongoing maintenance/calibration. The Tech-Air 5 is Bluetooth equipped and comes with an app for your phone. If there is ever any sort of a software/firmware/algorithm update, you'll get a notification message directly, and you'll be able to download and upload wirelessly. Amongst other features the app provides, it includes... basic system status readings (ie. battery, sensor diagnostics, etc.), a trip diary where you can see where you rode on a map, plus time, distance, turn-by-turn speed, lean angle, etc. Additionally, you'll have access to the data portal which has all sorts of pertinent Tech-Air information, and customer service messaging directly from the app to someone at Alpinestars. Finally, in the event of a deployment, you can program one or multiple contacts to be notified with an SMS message letting them know there's been an impact, and it'll also provide your exact GPS coordinates should you need emergency response assistance. As a side note, the GPS function of the app has no involvement whatsoever in determining/detecting a crash - be it loss of control (highside/lowside) or impact/collision - as the system cannot control and thus rely on the signal/reception strength.

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post #34 of 65 Old Feb 19th, 2020, 4:01 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by NoelCP View Post
Pretty cool stuff, from Revzilla site:

Does the Tech-Air 5 System require ongoing maintenance and/or calibration by Alpinestars? If so, how often does it need to be performed and what is the cost for the service? Also, what is the cost to have the system refurbished after an air bag deployment?

Dan R on Jan 11, 2020
BEST ANSWER: The system does not require any ongoing maintenance/calibration. The Tech-Air 5 is Bluetooth equipped and comes with an app for your phone. If there is ever any sort of a software/firmware/algorithm update, you'll get a notification message directly, and you'll be able to download and upload wirelessly. Amongst other features the app provides, it includes... basic system status readings (ie. battery, sensor diagnostics, etc.), a trip diary where you can see where you rode on a map, plus time, distance, turn-by-turn speed, lean angle, etc. Additionally, you'll have access to the data portal which has all sorts of pertinent Tech-Air information, and customer service messaging directly from the app to someone at Alpinestars. Finally, in the event of a deployment, you can program one or multiple contacts to be notified with an SMS message letting them know there's been an impact, and it'll also provide your exact GPS coordinates should you need emergency response assistance. As a side note, the GPS function of the app has no involvement whatsoever in determining/detecting a crash - be it loss of control (highside/lowside) or impact/collision - as the system cannot control and thus rely on the signal/reception strength.
Well somebody is telling porkies then, because as I posted from the only UK approved service centre. These guys make some of the best made to measure leathers (I have a set), most UK Police forces use their services, so they are trustworthy - https://bksleather.co.uk/tech-air/vest-servicing
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post #35 of 65 Old Feb 19th, 2020, 11:31 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Well somebody is telling porkies then, because as I posted from the only UK approved service centre. These guys make some of the best made to measure leathers (I have a set), most UK Police forces use their services, so they are trustworthy - https://bksleather.co.uk/tech-air/vest-servicing
No one's telling porkies--the post above you are contesting is referring to the new, yet to be launched, Tech-Air 5. What was posted jives completely with what Alp CS told me during my phone inquiry yesterday. All diagnostics and firmware updates go thru the associated phone app to the end user--welcome to 2020. There is no 'routine' recommended service for Tech Air 5. After the 3rd deployment the vest should be serviced which will included replacement, not repacking, of its 2 argon canisters, plus replacement of the air bladder itself, at a cost of $299US. Repacking of its 2 argon canisters will be $179 for both. They expected initial launch to be in late March.

I really like these features as well and since I don't have them on Nav 5 for my '16 RT it would be very cool to have, turn by turn, lean angles, etc. Very cool SMS messaging feature as well I love it!

"Amongst other features the app provides, it includes... basic system status readings (ie. battery, sensor diagnostics, etc.), a trip diary where you can see where you rode on a map, plus time, distance, turn-by-turn speed, lean angle, etc. Additionally, you'll have access to the data portal which has all sorts of pertinent Tech-Air information, and customer service messaging directly from the app to someone at Alpinestars. Finally, in the event of a deployment, you can program one or multiple contacts to be notified with an SMS message letting them know there's been an impact, and it'll also provide your exact GPS coordinates should you need emergency response assistance."

I'm getting stoked about this thing I think it's got some awesome value. While I like the looks o the cushioning offered thru the turtle vest designs there is enough other value in this to make the case for it for sure. There is no question it deploys way faster than the tethered models which will come into play sometimes but beyond that not having the rope is very desirable. I plan on ordering one thru Revzilla as long as it can be returned, which I'm sure it can be if it doesn't fit or is too warm, etc. Right now I live in Colorado and most of the time it's rather chilly!

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post #36 of 65 Old Feb 19th, 2020, 12:44 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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No one's telling porkies--the post above you are contesting is referring to the new, yet to be launched, Tech-Air 5. What was posted jives completely with what Alp CS told me during my phone inquiry yesterday. All diagnostics and firmware updates go thru the associated phone app to the end user--welcome to 2020. There is no 'routine' recommended service for Tech Air 5. After the 3rd deployment the vest should be serviced which will included replacement, not repacking, of its 2 argon canisters, plus replacement of the air bladder itself, at a cost of $299US. Repacking of its 2 argon canisters will be $179 for both. They expected initial launch to be in late March.

I really like these features as well and since I don't have them on Nav 5 for my '16 RT it would be very cool to have, turn by turn, lean angles, etc. Very cool SMS messaging feature as well I love it!

"Amongst other features the app provides, it includes... basic system status readings (ie. battery, sensor diagnostics, etc.), a trip diary where you can see where you rode on a map, plus time, distance, turn-by-turn speed, lean angle, etc. Additionally, you'll have access to the data portal which has all sorts of pertinent Tech-Air information, and customer service messaging directly from the app to someone at Alpinestars. Finally, in the event of a deployment, you can program one or multiple contacts to be notified with an SMS message letting them know there's been an impact, and it'll also provide your exact GPS coordinates should you need emergency response assistance."

I'm getting stoked about this thing I think it's got some awesome value. While I like the looks o the cushioning offered thru the turtle vest designs there is enough other value in this to make the case for it for sure. There is no question it deploys way faster than the tethered models which will come into play sometimes but beyond that not having the rope is very desirable. I plan on ordering one thru Revzilla as long as it can be returned, which I'm sure it can be if it doesn't fit or is too warm, etc. Right now I live in Colorado and most of the time it's rather chilly!
I watched you debate buying your RT for months, and probably hundreds of posts, look forward to the "vest investigation" report as it continues.

I can only tell you it is a tether, NOT a ROPE! You make it out like it is some kind of issue, it is not.

And I am interested to know how this vest holds up. I am tough on gear. When it comes time to having sensors in my riding gear and having to take care of that item of clothing forget it. I get to camp or a motel room or home and I can strip gear off and stack it anywhere in a room or tent.

I also dont like that it mentions operating temps. If something is temp sensitive I am out on that one too as it could be 15 or 20 degrees or 100 and I may be on the bike. Now I know it is a wide range but given that there IS a range I am not good on that. 179 bucks to do the canisters is something I dont want either. I still think it is going to false inflate at times and that would piss me off. Especially because I would pee my pants as it is a event when they inflate, nothing timid about it. At least the Helite is very noticeable.

I do like the theory of it but all the gadgetry and Bluetooth this and that I dont need or want. I mean it is useless information unless stopped, as I hope you are not trying to read that on your cell phone when riding.

Me I am looking at the Tech 10 Boots. I wear AlpinStars now and have for 10 or more years and love them. After seeing the videos I am convinced I need better boots next. I love AlpineStar boots and can walk in them all day. These have a heal compressing built in and some other cool stuff, no Bluetooth to let you know if your boots stink though

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post #37 of 65 Old Feb 19th, 2020, 2:38 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Joke all you want but your motorcycle is chuck full of far more high tech gadgetry than these vests could hope to employ and every second you're on it you're subject to its potential foibles. I doubt false deployments will happen any more frequently than w/ tethered approaches and this is hardly brand new technology it's been developed and refined for a very long time. Reading your cell phone while you're riding, what? That's utter nonsense the phone app simply does diagnostics, sends alert SMS messages to user-entered contacts when a deployment happens, and downloads firmware updates. As for the cost of recharges do you really think you're going to need to do this regularly? If so maybe it's time to give up riding! And you can't hang your vest up in a tent or motel room because it has sensors in it? No big deal they are designed to function in crash scenarios in bad weather. My Sena 10R is another bluetooth device that has functioned now 6 straight years for me in all sorts of weather and even still holds a charge 6y later.

I'm intrigued with it but for me it will need to feel comfortable under my current riding gear, which means not be restrictive, and not be too warm. One other plus is this vest will live inside my Olympia jacket and so be far less exposed to UV and other environmental elements over external vests like Helite's. The technology seems mature enough, and is very track proven. If it meets my comfort requirement it will be technology of similar cost as a good helmet and will provide much more protection than I currently employ.


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post #38 of 65 Old Feb 19th, 2020, 7:08 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Joke all you want but your motorcycle is chuck full of far more high tech gadgetry than these vests could hope to employ and every second you're on it you're subject to its potential foibles. I doubt false deployments will happen any more frequently than w/ tethered approaches and this is hardly brand new technology it's been developed and refined for a very long time. Reading your cell phone while you're riding, what? That's utter nonsense the phone app simply does diagnostics, sends alert SMS messages to user-entered contacts when a deployment happens, and downloads firmware updates. As for the cost of recharges do you really think you're going to need to do this regularly? If so maybe it's time to give up riding! And you can't hang your vest up in a tent or motel room because it has sensors in it? No big deal they are designed to function in crash scenarios in bad weather. My Sena 10R is another bluetooth device that has functioned now 6 straight years for me in all sorts of weather and even still holds a charge 6y later.

I'm intrigued with it but for me it will need to feel comfortable under my current riding gear, which means not be restrictive, and not be too warm. One other plus is this vest will live inside my Olympia jacket and so be far less exposed to UV and other environmental elements over external vests like Helite's. The technology seems mature enough, and is very track proven. If it meets my comfort requirement it will be technology of similar cost as a good helmet and will provide much more protection than I currently employ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSh32IhR6Ec
Not a thing on the bike I need Bluetooth for.

Ahh I have never come close to deployment even pulling on it on a stumbled dismount.

As far as that Bluetooth you are touting the lean angels and all the data it will give you so some idiot is going to be looking at that stuff going down the road on their cell in the cradle.

UV ahh grasping on that. Body sweat and skin is far more corrosive. I will take my chances on UV working on it.

Noel I am looking forward to your adventure as it is entertaining to read. However you are talking about something you have never wore and you swear by it already. Again it seems like cool stuff to me but KISS is a good theory on something like this IMHO.

I do wear a Helite and have for many many miles. I like the coolness of it as it is as cool wearing without your back pad in your jacket. I also like that it is not under but over my skin and safety gear. I have felt first hand how a brush burn feels from armor so I worry about this sliding against your skin. I also think it is going to be hot to wear but I am always hot anyway.

Yes it is tongue and cheek but I am rooting for you and your vest to see how it all comes out. Anything anyone can tell us about bleeding technology first hand is good.

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post #39 of 65 Old Feb 19th, 2020, 9:18 pm
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Not a thing on the bike I need Bluetooth for.

Ahh I have never come close to deployment even pulling on it on a stumbled dismount.

As far as that Bluetooth you are touting the lean angels and all the data it will give you so some idiot is going to be looking at that stuff going down the road on their cell in the cradle.

UV ahh grasping on that. Body sweat and skin is far more corrosive. I will take my chances on UV working on it.

Noel I am looking forward to your adventure as it is entertaining to read. However you are talking about something you have never wore and you swear by it already. Again it seems like cool stuff to me but KISS is a good theory on something like this IMHO.

I do wear a Helite and have for many many miles. I like the coolness of it as it is as cool wearing without your back pad in your jacket. I also like that it is not under but over my skin and safety gear. I have felt first hand how a brush burn feels from armor so I worry about this sliding against your skin. I also think it is going to be hot to wear but I am always hot anyway.

Yes it is tongue and cheek but I am rooting for you and your vest to see how it all comes out. Anything anyone can tell us about bleeding technology first hand is good.
Well don't read more into it than it is. I'm certainly not swearing by it at this point I'm just reporting what I've learned since the OP opened up the topic of new airbag technology and it has some definite pluses. When someone chimes in with an automatic dis about something and it's based on bogus information I'm going to speak up with what I've learned but that doesn't mean I swear by anything.

As far as the technology goes I don't have a problem with it any more than I do with any other technology including all of the electronics in the RT. I don't particularly like the fact it's under the jacket in terms of how that might feel but only trying will address that issue we can conjecture all day long. It also seems to me the type of protection the Turtle vests provide does offer additional protection in certain areas that will come into play sometimes. And there may be times when the far faster initiation and deployment times trumps the added protection area, for example in the ultra common rear end collision where the approaching vehicle may nail you in the rear as your bike is jettisoned forward and before the tether stretches fully and airbag inflates. The TA5 does provide add'l coverage for the shoulders but less so pelvis and neck it appears.

All this being said, if I had to make a choice today, I'd go w/ the Turtle 2. I think it's more proven, and having it on the outside eliminates any issues with jacket compatibility. I like Hi-Vis, and it is available. It appears to offer better protection in certain areas. This being said, there is no question the TA5 offers additional value the Helite can't, and to me it appears meaningful. Hopefully they will show up locally at the two shops their CS person said were slated to become service centers for this product near me in Denver.
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post #40 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 4:51 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I have been rear ended with a Turtle Helite vest on. It deployed fine and I was dumped on the road, with no injuries, so its a tick for me. I have had many conversations with the Helite people and they are coming to our Blood Bike group meeting next month to demo to the rest of my colleagues. They do have the tech to make it BT operated, in fact they now make a pair of pants the elderly can wear, which if they fall can inflate and stop pelvic and hip fractures. But they are sticking to the tether deployment option as they feel at this moment it is still superior. I still like the idea of wearing a vest outside on my kit, so I can take it off when I am off the bike. I know you can take off the Tech Air as well, but if you have allowed for 4cm of extra space around the vest to allow for inflation, then I would need to size up on my jackets as well.
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post #41 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 8:33 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Casbar, you brought up really good points.

I have jerked on my tether rather hard a couple times when exiting the bike ( there is a learning curve to wearing something new like this! ) with no problems.

The Helite motorcycle product is simply one part of what this company makes. If they say the tether is still the best all around solution for a street bike rider, I cannot say anything against that based on what I know about them. They have both systems available, soooo........

While having a built in air bag in riding gear might look better, even be less hassle, it negates the ability for me to choose from my other riding gear. I have at this moment 5 complete sets of riding gear, each tuned to a specific purpose. I don't want to give that up. The Turtle II fits loose enough that it really doesn't restrict air flow all that much. Putting one under your gear certainly would add to the heat. Then there is the most excellent back protector the Helite has. I have removed the back protector out of my other gear. This makes that gear more comfortable and I think the Helite back protector is better than even the Motoport gear.
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post #42 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 11:21 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Hi Terry,
I don't often disagree with you. but on this vest scenario, I think I do.
I am not sure how long that tether is, but it does for sure affect deployment time. Heck that non-tether system would probably be inflated before you transitioned through the bike windscreen which would be a bonus!
If I were to use one, i'd like its deployment time to be as quick as possible. You don't know what is going to hit you but the sooner you get protection in place the better. I think both systems are useful though.

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post #43 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 11:30 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Some history of high tech solutions courtesy of EatSleepRide:

Born On The Race Track

Around the same time the Hit-Air hit the market, several high-end gear manufacturers working with premier-class Grand Prix motorcycle racers began researching a new type of airbag system. Because GP racing involves riders pushing wildly powerful machines to their limits--at incredibly high-speeds--there is a much greater need for airbag systems that can deploy in an instant.

The riders’ rapid movements around their bikes require a system to be free of physical restriction, and tethers. Obviously the idea of a bunch of riders tied to cords opened the risk of lethal possibilities should riders collide and get tangled at speed. The airbag needed to be fully wireless. It's not hard to see why these systems were born out of racing.

The answer was painstakingly developed over many years and at a cost of tens of millions of dollars. Engineers devised a cutting-edge vest that uses accelerometers, GPS sensors, gyroscopes, advanced algorithms and microprocessors to detect an accident and deploy the airbag. The system works at lighting speeds, checking for an indication of a crash 1,000-times every second. Should the system detect a crash, it deploys the inflatable safety net in just 15-milliseconds. As a point of reference, it takes about 400-milliseconds on average for the human eye to blink.

In the 2000s, these systems were made available to elite riders in high-level MotoGP competition. It didn’t take long for MotoGP riders to start swearing by these new pieces of safety tech. They were well-built and they worked. In testing, the systems were worn by dozens of riders in hundreds of races, seeing hundreds of deployments and not failing to go off when it was supposed to or deploying in situations when it wasn’t [reference].
If today Helite calls tether deployment 'superior' I'm guessing what that really means is 'superior' for their business model relative to development cost and their assessment of what the retail street market can cope with price-wise. The deployment initiation thru full inflation time certainly isn't superior at all, it's actually significantly inferior as the videos unequivocally revealed. I'm not saying the final protection is inferior, I'm just referring to deployment method which is what we're talking about here. I like what i see re protection from the Turtle 2 design so I mentioned early on my fantasy solution to this would be the Helite turtle vest without the tether. If they can choke down the massive development cost for this for their vest solution this is where they will go eventually and that is because there is nothing de facto desirable about having to deal with the tether it's a necessary inconvenience of this deployment method is all it is. Will they go there at some point? Really hard to predict and that is because the low-tech method does what it needs to do and is absolutely easier to produce & support!

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post #44 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 11:45 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

No worries Andy!

I didn't want to get too deep into this, it is for sure not an exact science nor am I a licensed accident scene investigator!

Yes, activation time is important. We have air bags in cars inflating very quickly, but even most of those are not ignited by gps sensors. Rather by mechanical impact sensor. Which sounds a lot like a tether in some ways. But the point is that everyone here that says the gps style will activate quicker may be concerned about hitting the handlebars or windshield.

Go watch the videos of the staged activation events. Unlike a car that decelerates on the same plane, bike wrecks where the bike runs into something almost always have the bike rotating the rear wheel off the ground and ejecting the rider OVER most if not all bike parts. So the tether style systems might indeed inflate later, but still in plenty of time to protect against sudden impacts of vehicles, tree, etc. Which is the point of these systems. These systems, both designs, are meant to protect against sudden impact to your torso, some add neck, and pelvis. If ( again IF ) you hurt your leg on the handlebar, that is bad but hopefully not life threatening.

Yes, if you have a low side event the electronic versions will activate sooner and better.

But the worst injuries, certainly those that are life threatening, don't normally happen the moment you come off the bike. Sudden impact with something is what kills and injures.

Think of what I have written and see if it makes sense. Each side wants you to think they have the best solution.

I will take the much higher reliability of the mechanically fired tether system. You can talk about the electronic versions being reliable, which is ok until they are not. Anything requiring charging is apt to be overlooked. While the manufacturer will say and is correct by saying "they did not use as directed" the fact is the system didn't deploy. What about riding in heavily wooded areas, or in intense storms where gps signals are lost or weak? No one speaks about that!


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post #45 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 11:56 am
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelCP View Post
The ridersí rapid movements around their bikes require a system to be free of physical restriction, and tethers. Obviously the idea of a bunch of riders tied to cords opened the risk of lethal possibilities should riders collide and get tangled at speed. The airbag needed to be fully wireless. It's not hard to see why these systems were born out of racing.

In the 2000s, these systems were made available to elite riders in high-level MotoGP competition. It didnít take long for MotoGP riders to start swearing by these new pieces of safety tech. They were well-built and they worked. In testing, the systems were worn by dozens of riders in hundreds of races, seeing hundreds of deployments and not failing to go off when it was supposed to or deploying in situations when it wasnít [reference].[/INDENT]
Noel, the first paragraph sounds a lot like BS to me. "Tied to cords"? I will bet that is written by an electronic air bag company. The riders do not have "cords" or tethers on THEM, those are on the bike and I just don't see any way they could tangle....

I completely agree with the second paragraph. But how many here are track day or actually race a bike? I am 100% sure the electronic version is the BEST for racing conditions. If for no other reason than the low slide scenario. These can be tailored into the race suits. But he BIG deal here is that they are also going to be made ready for the race, fully charged and checked off, before hitting the track. They have been a wonderful safety item for those who race bikes.

But the 100% activation rate won't be the case with everyday riders on the street. Again, no fault of the device, but I can see these NOT being charged on occasion. Yes, there is a bluetooth app. But like my phone and apps, I don't see them when riding and damn sure don't want to start doing that just to check on the condition of my airbag. Then there is the coverage that just doesn't seem to match the Helite turtle II. That is a big deal to me. What sold me on it.

To everyone....Just buy one of these. Whatever one you want. They are as important as a helmet is to safety.
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post #46 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 12:34 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

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Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
I will take the much higher reliability of the mechanically fired tether system. You can talk about the electronic versions being reliable, which is ok until they are not. Anything requiring charging is apt to be overlooked. While the manufacturer will say and is correct by saying "they did not use as directed" the fact is the system didn't deploy. What about riding in heavily wooded areas, or in intense storms where gps signals are lost or weak? No one speaks about that!
No doubt it's a simpler mechanism, but "much higher reliability" is a claim that demands substantiation. The CO2 cartridge wasn't properly filled, or when your 620lb bike was about to take a nap you hesitated a moment as the thought of the tether's presence crossed your mind and interfered with your need to make a fast clear exit from the falling machine and crushed your ankle as a result, or you just flat out forgot to connect the tether which I'm sure has happened many times amongst all instances of tethered vest use, so no they're not perfect in that regard either. Tech Air 5 does not use GPS, but you clearly didn't bother to read about it before making claims, just like you didn't bother to read about how the sensors work a few posts back. It's easy to opine here but the real value comes from new information. I've provided plenty of new information about this technology here for all to evaluate, you're welcome.

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post #47 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 12:59 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Noel, are you sure about the gps sensors? Before you jump on my statement research that. No one said this thread was only about the tech 5 and you may have assumed that it was? I was writing in general about electronic vs mechanical. 'Cause some of the electronic versions most certainly use gps as a signal input along with other signals.

When my bike falls over I won't be thinking about the tether.

The CO2 cartridge is just as likely to work or fail as the Argon cartridge.

Flat out forgot to attach the tether....is a fact. Twice so far, and early on. I pulled off immediately and attached it. I have a bar mounted female tether end holder that I attach the tether to when I get off the bike. Simple to look at that and realize I need to attach it, or confirm that I did.

Now tell me about turning the electronic version on? Is that automatic? Or can you forget to do that? I can look at my tether to confirm, what would you have to do to confirm the electronic version is on and ready to operate? How long after you charge it can it hang in the closet before it needs it again? Does that mean you ride without it should the charge be low after a few weeks? Questions that will bring "new information"!
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post #48 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 5:06 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

I love it, you go Noel

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post #49 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 5:17 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandytales View Post
Hi Terry,
I don't often disagree with you. but on this vest scenario, I think I do.
I am not sure how long that tether is, but it does for sure affect deployment time. Heck that non-tether system would probably be inflated before you transitioned through the bike windscreen which would be a bonus!
If I were to use one, i'd like its deployment time to be as quick as possible. You don't know what is going to hit you but the sooner you get protection in place the better. I think both systems are useful though.
You hit the nail on the head. "if I were to use one" I have used one and it deployed. This is all theory, tether vs BT, as I said, Hellite have chosen at this point to not go down the BT route. Hellite have been chosen by many UK Police forces as the vest of choice, along with UK Paramedics and Blood Bike groups. Now I'm not sure of their decision making process, but if its good enough for them, then I'm happy with my decision. A lot of this stuff is marketing bull shit, one company wanting to sell their product over another's. Fact, make your own choices, don't believe the marketing bull and unless you have experience and real knowhow of the differences between tether and BT apart from the manufacturers claims, then really nobody knows which is best, so its personal choice
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post #50 of 65 Old Feb 20th, 2020, 6:53 pm
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Re: New AirBag Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
Noel, are you sure about the gps sensors? Before you jump on my statement research that. No one said this thread was only about the tech 5 and you may have assumed that it was?
Yep, very sure about the GPS sensors. If you recall I was talking about Tech 5 for several posts and while Dianese uses GPS data Tech Air 5 doesn't. Your statement was rather categorical since in no way did you exclude the main item I was discussing that YOU responded to, right? Yep!

Quote:
Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
When my bike falls over I won't be thinking about the tether....Flat out forgot to attach the tether....is a fact. Twice so far, and early on.
Good for you--I'm sure that WILL happen to some users and yes your vest DID NOT protect you on those two incidences that you recall. For all of the tethered vest users the number of times the rider forgot to make the connection will be measurable as a rate of operator error based failure and those count in the final tally of overall reliability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
Now tell me about turning the electronic version on? Is that automatic? Or can you forget to do that? I can look at my tether to confirm, what would you have to do to confirm the electronic version is on and ready to operate? How long after you charge it can it hang in the closet before it needs it again? Does that mean you ride without it should the charge be low after a few weeks? Questions that will bring "new information"!
Ride w/o it should the charge be low after a few weeks? It's a new item in your arsenal so presumably you would incorporate charging just like you do with your laptop, phone, electric leaf blower, shaver, Sena 10R, etc etc. The device senses the type of motion where it may need to deploy, so it senses when you are 'active' hence can go into sleep mode when not, hence the 30h active time reference. How long will it stay charged hanging up? It's a Li-ion battery so you should be able to guess on that. I don't know if its default state is 'On' and asleep, or if it has an on/off switch as well. I'm sure the IT wizards at Alpinestars have had fun programming capacity to handle tasks such as this, for example giving sufficient time to inactivity to avert putting it to sleep when it may be needed. Compared to autonomous vehicle tech this is pretty pedestrian.

Alpinestars Tech-Air 5 System

Tech-Air 5 is a slim, self-contained wearable airbag vest designed to be worn under virtually any jacket. The system provides unrivaled upper body protection uniquely covering the rider's shoulders, critical in motorcycling accidents, in addition to the chest, ribs and full back. The Tech-Air 5 Airbag System offers the most comprehensive coverage of any motorcycling airbag available today.

The state-of-the-art Tech-Air 5 System features six integrated sensors (3 gyroscopes and 3 accelerometers) to continuously monitor the rider’s position. An algorithm developed closely with MotoGP race data and data from over 2,000 lab-simulated crash scenarios determine when and how the system deploys. The airbag has a maximum inflation time of up to 40ms (or less, depending on vest size). The impact absorption while wearing the airbag results in a decrease of impact force by up to 95% compared to a passive chest or back protector. Inflation time is quick enough to deploy the airbag before the rider's first impact with an obstacle. In addition, the vest will protect stationary riders in the event of a rear-end collision.

The airbag has a battery life good for 30 hours of riding time on a single charge, and an LED display conveniently shows system status directly on the garment. The system features Bluetooth connectivity to pair with the Tech-Air App, which uses the rider’s phone to display the system’s operational status, battery status and provide detailed analysis of a ride. Over-the-air firmware updates are also handled through the app. Alpinestars includes a micro USB charger for quick recharging.

Electronics System:

* Active electronic system that features six triaxial integrated sensors (3 gyro and 3 accelerometers)
* Crash algorithm that leverages AI to accurately monitor when to deploy the airbag in a crash
* 30 hours of riding time after a full charge via micro USB charger
* Bluetooth and App integration

Airbag System:

* Covers shoulders, chest, ribs and full back
* Maximum inflation time of 20-40ms based on the volume of the airbag size
* Decreases impact force by 95% compared to a passive protector
* Includes argon gas canisters
* Highly ventilated back protector

Operation:

* Zip up vest and close magnetic flap
* Integrated LED display indicates operational status

I'm just playing devil's advocate here because the common reaction when something new comes along and one is fully invested in something else the go-to reaction will often be biased towards being closed, defensive, etc. And this is the house of tethered vest users. As of today, I still like what I see in the external turtle design it just looks potentially more effective. Is it for sure? Given everything we've talked about here so far, I'm not certain if the other attributes discussed (no tether therefore no forget to connect, 7-8x faster deployment, automated contact to your listed emergency contact instantly in a deployment) won't offset that potentially greater efficacy. So much of whether or not something will be useful in a crash depends on the specifics of the incident. In large populations no doubt both designs can play very meaningful roles, and sometimes not. If I had to choose today, it would be the Helite Turtle 2. Before going there I plan to try on a properly fitted Tech Air 5, under my two Olympia jackets, one 3-season which I prefer as it's mesh and good enough, and one 4 season which fits tighter. I tried on the 4-season after removing the back protector and it seems it would easily accommodate the 4cm (1.57in) minimum circumferential clearance, and I almost always use the 3-season so my jackets will work I'm pretty sure.

As I'm OK w/ the technology part the main issue for me comes to comfort wearing it. As I reflect on all of the touring days I've done it's common for me/us to stop every 90min or so to take a whiz, grab some food or fuel. So in a 10h riding day that's 5 or 6 times on and off with the tether at a minimum if not the vest itself depending on ambient conditions, whereas you don't need to do anything w/ the internal vest. You can take your jacket off to cool and leave the vest on. So convenience is a potential issue.

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Last edited by NoelCP; Feb 20th, 2020 at 7:03 pm.
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