I used to own a Yamaha FJR, traded up to a 2018 RT a year ago, being a casual weekend rider, put about 1000 miles since new. I love the RT, but a bit disappointed how badly underpowered it feels, especially getting going again at a stop light in first gear. It is supposed to have 125 horses, feels like 100 runs away when starting and then come back. I complained about it to the dealer during 600 mile service, they test rode it, and said everything was fine, but still reset the computer's learning feature.
Today a friend I went to San Francisco for some uphill start practice and I ended up stalling the bike several times on some moderate hills. I had to rev up to 4000-5000 rpm while easing the clutch into the friction zone and noticed rpm dropping rather quickly below 1K. It was quite disappointing.
I am thinking about taking the bike back to the dealers, but afraid they are going to say the same thing: rider as it should, no issues, and then charge me $150 :-(
Any thoughts on how to tackle the issues? Should I get used to and accept this something normal for the RT, or might there be something wrong? I never felt anything like this on the FJR, on the contrary it was actually overpowered for my taste and I had to ride in touring mode all the time.
Any thoughts on how to troubleshoot this? Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Ali - interesting observation. I went from a '15 to an '18RT and have a similar observation about starting off. For the first few stalls, I thought pilot error and then started concentrating a bit more on what was going on and had to modify my start procedure with clutch and throttle. Doubt there is anything 'wrong' and nothing to fix, just a characteristic of the beast I suspect - this is with the bike in Road mode and just requires I pay a bit more attention when starting off. Where you using hill start when trying to start on the hills?
I took mine back to the dealer indicating the hill start did not work as the owner's manual described in that I could not drive off from a stop w/o additional throttle and they told me it was fine - but they, contrary to the om, had to give it more than a bit of throttle.
Yes, a stellar underwhelming performance by the service department.
I find hill start control to be mostly useless. The only time I use it is when at a light or stopped with the bike in neutral. I've never been able to pull-away from a stop with HSC engaged without massive amounts of throttle and even then I know it's going to stall.
Coming from the inline-4 world of Asian bikes, I am pretty sad to discover that the RT not only doesn't have any top-end, but refuses to lug around in the lower gears. BUT, the front suspension is superior to conventional forks and the bike has been otherwise bullet-proof.
I have an 18.
I had the same observations.
Based on past motorcycle experience, I attribute all of this to the fuel/air ratio being too lean.
I installed the AF-XIED modules (beemer boneyard), and they made a huge difference.
More power off the line, much smoother throttle response, and no surging when cruising through town ad low rpms.
Like John, I've got an AF-XIED on my 16 RT and it does make low rpm a whole heck-of-a-lot easier to deal with than the stock setup. That said, the bike is geared rather tall and things I'd do comfortably in second gear on my Magna, I do in first gear on my RT.
Have another RT rider ride it and let you know what they think.
Between my 07 LT and my 15 RT I owned a 10 FJR. Loved the bike for sure. That said I have never felt the RT was under powered in take offs. It took me a little while to adjust to the Throttle By Wire so I ran in Rain mode for the first 1000 miles or so until I got used to the throttle input needed for smooth take offs.
You should never need 4-5K RPM to move off a hill.
I agree completely. I came from a 2011 FJR to my 2016RT and it is different. But not that noticeable or lacking. Even with my wife on the back I do not need to rev any more than riding single really. I killed the FJR way more often staring from a stop with a passenger than I ever have with the RT. In fact I have never killed the RT. I feel the boxer lugs down with low end torque nicely whereas the FJR would choke if the rpm's got too low under load. Not sure what to tell ya. Maybe find a nice used one somewhere at a dealer and do a test ride with a passenger and compare.
I think that's an old message. Too bad they didn't date it.
The new version is sorted for the liquid cooled bikes like my 18.
That's why I specifically linked the Beemer Boneyard source.
First of all, congrats on your new bike! I hope, this issue aside, that you're enjoying it.
It's not just you. I came from a '15 FJR and noticed the same thing. Here are my observations about it.
1. Compared to the FJR, ALMOST ALL BIKES ARE UNDERPOWERED at low revs. The FJR has magnificent grunt at the low end that was always a source of wonder and satisfaction.
2. The throttle-by-wire FJRs (2013 on) have a very nifty feature that advances the throttle slightly as the clutch is let out. This is a great assist feature for starting that BMW would be well advised to copy.
3. First gear on the RT is not nearly as low as on the FJR. On the FJR I only used first to get the bike rolling; it's geared so low that it felt like I was over-revving a dump truck to try to cruise around at 15 mph on it. I used second gear for noodling at very low speeds such as around the neighborhood or when acting childish on karting tracks. I find first gear a better choice for such low speeds on the RT.
4. The RT has a very small clutch friction zone compared to the FJR. Coupled with the items 1 through 3 above the RT is, indeed, much easier to stall than the FJR.
4. Throttle sensitivity can be very different between the FJR and the RT depending on the riding modes selected. The 2013 and on FJRs have two modes, Sport and Touring. I, too, used Touring as Sport seemed too abrupt for me; it's purely a matter of taste. The RT in Rain, and Normal mode is much milder than the FJR's Touring mode: it takes more twist of the throttle to get the same amount of oomph.
I originally thought the RT was way down on power to the FJR because of the less sensitive throttle. While a bit less powerful than the FJR, most of what I was sensing was the change in throttle sensitivity. I find myself using Dymanic mode (the most aggressive) on the RT which provides a throttle response similar to the FJR in Touring mode.
The good news is that I think you'll find that you will adapt to this characteristic of the RT and enjoy its many stellar qualities.
I wish you blue skies, green lights, and brown plugs.
First of all, congrats on your new bike! I hope, this issue aside, that you're enjoying it.
It's not just you. I came from a '15 FJR and noticed the same thing. Here are my observations about it.
1. Compared to the FJR, ALMOST ALL BIKES ARE UNDERPOWERED at low revs. The FJR has magnificent grunt at the low end that was always a source of wonder and satisfaction.
2. The throttle-by-wire FJRs (2013 on) have a very nifty feature that advances the throttle slightly as the clutch is let out. This is a great assist feature for starting that BMW would be well advised to copy.
3. First gear on the RT is not nearly as low as on the FJR. On the FJR I only used first to get the bike rolling; it's geared so low that it felt like I was over-revving a dump truck to try to cruise around at 15 mph on it. I used second gear for noodling at very low speeds such as around the neighborhood or when acting childish on karting tracks. I find first gear a better choice for such low speeds on the RT.
4. The RT has a very small clutch friction zone compared to the FJR. Coupled with the items 1 through 3 above the RT is, indeed, much easier to stall than the FJR.
4. Throttle sensitivity can be very different between the FJR and the RT depending on the riding modes selected. The 2013 and on FJRs have two modes, Sport and Touring. I, too, used Touring as Sport seemed too abrupt for me; it's purely a matter of taste. The RT in Rain, and Normal mode is much milder than the FJR's Touring mode: it takes more twist of the throttle to get the same amount of oomph.
I originally thought the RT was way down on power to the FJR because of the less sensitive throttle. While a bit less powerful than the FJR, most of what I was sensing was the change in throttle sensitivity. I find myself using Dymanic mode (the most aggressive) on the RT which provides a throttle response similar to the FJR in Touring mode.
The good news is that I think you'll find that you will adapt to this characteristic of the RT and enjoy its many stellar qualities.
I wish you blue skies, green lights, and brown plugs.
I had a 2005 FJR and have to say your write up is spot on.
I noticed that the hill start is less sensitive after the dealer did a brake flush at 35,000 miles. After riding the hills in San Francisco before and after service it doesn't hold on extreme hill but doesn't need higher rpm to release the hill start. The dealer redid the brake flush but still the same. There mechanic is great and a really nice dealership.
Did anyone notice this happening after brake bleed?
Also got to ride the K1600 and it has so much torque it is incredible. I think it is the difference from 6 cylinder to 2 cylinder makes a huge difference. That is why the FJR with a 4 cylinder has more torque, just my thought.
Today a friend I went to San Francisco for some uphill start practice and I ended up stalling the bike several times on some moderate hills. I had to rev up to 4000-5000 rpm while easing the clutch into the friction zone and noticed rpm dropping rather quickly below 1K.
Are you describing using the HillStart feature with this, or just normal starts? If it's the latter then this seems bizarre to me, in particular dropping down below 1000 as you let out the clutch lever. To me this suggests you're not adding revs as you add load, and letting the clutch out a little too quickly on top of that. With only 1000 miles in a year it might be hard to really get the process nailed down--compared to prior memories w/ your FJR. I never have to add that kind of revs to get started from a stop EXCEPT when using HillStart, and I slip the clutch a little in the process but only for a very brief period until the clutch if full engaged. Try slipping the clutch a little w/ very low load until rolling well, keeping RPM up say around 2000-3000 tops, and after fully engaged then accelerate as desired.
If your technique is what is required for this bike and this is what happens to you then I wonder if you haven't fallen victim to a bum cam lobe or two. Others here could speak to that much more than I however I understand some '18 models have had bum lobes picked up at under 1000 total miles ridden and surely this must affect power.
Wow after owning two 2006 FJR's and loving both I went to a new 2015 RT and feel the RT in a drag race would smoke the FJR especially with the dynamic shifting. The FJR had a higher top speed but the RT with the throttle cracked wide open to me feels so much faster
With respect, our memories differ. Both my (now departed )2015 FJR and my 2018 RT certainly "get the job done" but I've never had the impression the RT had stronger acceleration. Cycle World got the R1200RT through a 1/4 mile in 12.3 seconds. Our Brit friends at MCN got the FJR through the 1/4 in 11.6 seconds.
IMHO both are great bikes. I'm delighted with my RT but if it were somehow decreed that my RT was to be confiscated and I was condemned to ride an FJR for the rest of my days I'd be able to face it bravely.
I may have misunderstood this. Are you saying you have to use 4-5K to "break" the Hill Assist?
If that is what you are saying you are correct for sure. Hill Assist SUCKS on pre 1250 bikes. It takes WAY too much throttle to brake it loose.
My car is a 6 speed with hill assist. I stop it engages, I let the clutch out and go and it is smooth with no noticeable transition.
I will/would never use it on my bike as it is rough, takes way too much to break it loose, and if I have to un engage it before I take off what is the sense?
I was fortunate and learned to ride a motorcycle with no help from it or electronic wizards. I have always stopped with clutch in, first gear, left foot down, right foot on the rear brake, eyes on my mirrors.
Now I hear on the 1250 Hill Assist works better then the 1200 and that may be useful. But the crap on my 1200 I wish they could have back.
My '18 RT gives me the same experience as the OP. I was constantly afraid of stalling, and 9 months and 18,000 miles later, I still stall it occasionally with a pillion and full luggage. While I like that I can scoot through an entire turn from a stop before shifting, the rather tall first gear along with the short throw in the friction zone makes getting used to this characteristic of the bike daunting. It also creates a concern for the rider about clutch wear and tear as you use higher rpm's and slip the clutch to compensate.
One thing that I've done recently that does seem to help a bit is to move the clutch lever adjustment all of the way in to 1. While the clutch still doesn't engage until the end of the lever release, it seems that I have better control of it since it brings the beginning of the friction zone in closer.
One thing that I've done recently that does seem to help a bit is to move the clutch lever adjustment all of the way in to 1. While the clutch still doesn't engage until the end of the lever release, it seems that I have better control of it since it brings the beginning of the friction zone in closer.
John...no sight glass on my clutch lever reservoir. But, the lever is acting just as I would expect having changed the throw from "3" to "1". It just feels more natural for me to have the lever closer to the grips.
Thank you everyone. Really appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions. I test rode a demo 2018 RT back at the dealer before I bought mine, although the ride was short, I don't recall any low end torque issues with that bike. And I haven't used hill start assist in SF, but I will give it a try to see if it helps.
My first order of business would be to have another RT rider ride it and let me know what they think as LAF suggested. If they think all is normal, then I am going to explore AF-XIED module option as John suggested.
I live near San Jose, California. If there are any RT wet-head owners nearby willing to help, swap the bikes for a quick comparison, I would be very interested. Following is a pic of me and the bike. Thank you.
Site still being updated but head to the bottom of the page - NightRider only sells through BeemerBoneyard - the removal of the "Add to Cart" button is a work in process
Again, Mike at BeemerBoneyard will take excellent care of you
My 18 has the hill holder feature.
It's convenient when stopped on a steep incline for an extended period of time.
I use it about as often as I shift into neutral so I don't have to hold the clutch lever.
The hill holder s handy when I'm stopped at a light on a steep incline.
I found I had to give it more throttle to disable it than I liked, so when the light is getting ready to turn, I shift into first, then my right foot goes back on the brake, I squeeze the front brake lever again to disable the hill hold assist, and off I go, smooth and controlled.
As my old friend Snarl used to say, "You gotta be smarter than the problem..."
I use HillStart very frequently but only to keep the bike from moving on any kind up slope up or down when stopped. It's really kind of a parking brake the way I use it, and I almost always release it before departing, though it seems to require less RPM now that the bike has 40K on it to get it to release on its own, or I've just learned not to over-rev it compared to when the bike was new.
BMW has provided a fix, but it's pricey. The R1250RT. When launching hard I have to take care that I don't do a massive wheelie. It has almost as much torque as my 2005 R1200RT had... at just 2000 rpm. And it has more peak torque than the FJR1300.
Um....WHAT? I had a 2005 RT for 13 years and nearl 100K. They're great bikes but my '17 LC has more everything.... Have you got yours past break-in yet?
You don't need any gizmos to change your fuel mapping, etc... You need to make sure the bike isn't in RAIN mode and twist the throttle more when you take off.
My 2016 can lift the front wheel from a start and so can your 2018 (found this out by accident!) with little to no clutch slippage. You're just not used to it.
Go to an empty parking lot and experiment until you feel comfortable.
When I first rode my prior '14 RT, I did just that! Gave it the same throttle as for when I rode the previous '07 RT, and then dropped the clutch (as I always do), and the front wheel actually lifted before the traction control had the chance to kick in.
BTW, I am sure that the problem that the OP has is more related to riding technique than anything mechanical. People, especially ones who came from different manufacture bike, don't realize that the 1200RT WANTS lots of rpm, especially at the beginning. Ride the bike right and you won't even be anywhere near stalling at start.
I also think it's riding style. I don't think I've stalled my '17 at all except twice that I left it in second gear. It can also move imho especially with the pro-shift. As for hill assist, I'm in South Texas where we have no hills so whenever we do get to hill country I always forget I have it, same for Rain Mode (seldom rains in S.TX.).
Do you guys try your bikes before you buy them? If you don't like the way it goes from a start, don't buy it!
I was going to go wild and buy a 1200 GS after 3 RTs, but after trying one, I didn't like the noises it made and really liked the taller gearing for most riding. Still do.
After reading all this whining, I really am amazed. I have to think hard to find a single thing I don't love about my bike after taking a 2000 mile wander through the southeast on it last summer. It was "new" then...a left-over '17. I never stall it and I've never let the clutch out at 4000 RPM.
I fixed the seat, the bars and the windscreen and added a fused, non-canbus air compressor outlet and an SAE outlet for heated gear. Put some reflective tape on the back...tastefully, I think...for visibility if I ever have to park it on the road at night. Added a concealed V-1, which took more creativity than on other bikes I've owned.
I broke the plastic that holds that rubber push-on that's on the little triangle of black plastic on the right side, but it still stays on OK so I won't replace it. The broken piece is painted and likely pricey.
Um...that's all I can think of. That's pretty good. RT #4 is the best ever.
I have to think hard to find a single thing I don't love about my bike after taking a 2000 mile wander through the southeast on it last summer. It was "new" then...a left-over '17. I never stall it and I've never let the clutch out at 4000 RPM. RT #4 is the best ever.
Same same, and I can say that just as much today at 40,445m as I did at 100m. I feel like I'm spoiled forever on what an ST is supposed to do! This does make me think something is wrong w/ the '18 models I have no problem ever with stalling or anything! Oh, the throttle got a little notchy/sticky I noticed a few weeks ago and I thought I was developing a flat spot in acceleration until I figured out it was just the throttle grip. A bit of WD-40 at each end completely cured this issue.
There is a Vendor thread on the AF-XEID you can learn all about it.
One should be able to smoothly take off from a start with a little practice as was suggested. Looking for gizmos and fixes will not teach you how to ride and handle your bike.
It also will mask an issue if you have one with the bike and for any shop to diagnose a issue it needs to be stock and they will make you bring it in that way to try and trouble shoot and fix an issue.
Do not get me wrong I am running a PC V with AutoTune and a POD 300 display on a dyno tuned map on my GS. I am also running Akropovic Headers and a Remus 8 exhaust.
You just need to practice. I mean if you want to mod your bike do it but learn to ride it as is. Clutch feel is going to be the same take up point of the clutch the same, so with fuel it gets smoother but you should be able to manage.
Obviously I agree they need fuel to perform at peak, but they do not need anything to pull from a stop correctly except smooth user input.
Hi Roger, I had seen what Tactical1 had written, however, I was kind of hoping that well past halfway through 2019, the Nightrider website would have been updated. There are considerable number of sales that MUST have been lost through this website tardiness.
Now, I wonder how much it will cost to get one across and installed in the UK!
I don't do much stopping on hills but when I first got my '18 RT I went looking for some so that I could test the Hill Start feature. I too found that it took LOTS of throttle to pull away from the stop and that I killed it repeatedly, while learning just how much throttle it took. Then I read a post somewhere on a forum (it may even have been here) that spoke to the use of this feature.
If you pull the front brake lever very hard to set it, the rear brake sets "very hard." But if you pull the front brake lever gently, just enough to hold the bike on the hill, it takes very little "extra" throttle to pull away. I'd suggest only using enough Hill Start braking to hold the bike on the hill, then it takes much less throttle when it's time to accelerate.
I was taught to keep my right foot on the brake though, so except in situations where I can't, grease on the road, a poorly placed pothole, etc., I'll be using that technique on the hills.
The RT was not designed to be a rocketship. It is a touring bike that happens to handle very well for a larger bike. It will go if you poke it, but that's not it's forte....
If you need fast and nimble, try an XR, but you give up some of the touring expertise of the RT.
R1250RT is a different beast. In dynamic mode I can wheelie all the way through third gear without the wheel touching down when quick shifting. It can also be very pleasant and docile in town.
FYI
I’m not looking for a rocket ship (got one already) And to the folks that say the RT-LC has perfect fueling off-idle I say you are lucky, period. My fueling since new has been super lean off-idle. This is much less noticeable while riding light, no passenger or panniers full.
BUT, when I’m touring on my ‘16 RT with a 150 lb passenger, 3 full boxes and my fat arse 200lb. my RT is mostly loaded. A recent 2k mile trip loaded as stated my bike requires a bit of clutch feathering to get this girl away from a stop light. Again the power the bike makes when rolling is fine, perfectly.
This BTW comes from a non-whiner. The bike is perfect except getting her off the line. There is absolutely no reason a $20k 1200cc bike to act like mine pulling away from a stop sign, clutch feathering is an understatement to get this bike getting off the line. My old turd (K1200LT) was a dream compared this ‘16 R1200RT Pulling away especially on a hill.
And please before you think that I’m an inexperienced rider, I’ve owned 40+ bikes, held an AMA pro racing license for 8 years so I do know something about getting a bike “off-the-line”.
Come spring time I’ll buy a AF-XiED, period
FYI
I’m not looking for a rocket ship (got one already) And to the folks that say the RT-LC has perfect fueling off-idle I say you are lucky, period. My fueling since new has been super lean off-idle. This is much less noticeable while riding light, no passenger or panniers full.
BUT, when I’m touring on my ‘16 RT with a 150 lb passenger, 3 full boxes and my fat arse 200lb. my RT is mostly loaded. A recent 2k mile trip loaded as stated my bike requires a bit of clutch feathering to get this girl away from a stop light. Again the power the bike makes when rolling is fine, perfectly.
This BTW comes from a non-whiner. The bike is perfect except getting her off the line. There is absolutely no reason a $20k 1200cc bike to act like mine pulling away from a stop sign, clutch feathering is an understatement to get this bike getting off the line. My old turd (K1200LT) was a dream compared this ‘16 R1200RT Pulling away especially on a hill.
And please before you think that I’m an inexperienced rider, I’ve owned 40+ bikes, held an AMA pro racing license for 8 years so I do know something about getting a bike “off-the-line”.
Come spring time I’ll buy a AF-XiED, period
I do think 1st is a little tall on my 1200RT. GS has lower gearing.
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