Charging issue again... - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 40 Old May 21st, 2019, 8:34 pm Thread Starter
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Charging issue again...



My new GSA does not have the pigtail connection like my RT had.
So my only option is to attach the darn BMW charger to 12V outlet. But after I do that and cycle the starter switch it begins to charge and only about 2 minutes it cuts off and NOT CHARGING light is back on.. (Red Flashing)

Sometimes I hate technology!

Capt.Jim
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post #2 of 40 Old May 21st, 2019, 9:35 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post


My new GSA does not have the pigtail connection like my RT had.
So my only option is to attach the darn BMW charger to 12V outlet. But after I do that and cycle the starter switch it begins to charge and only about 2 minutes it cuts off and NOT CHARGING light is back on.. (Red Flashing)

Sometimes I hate technology!
I gave up trying to charge through the 12v outlet. My '16 didn't come with the SAE connector. One day, while shooting the shit at the dealership, I mentioned that. The guy who sold me the bike didn't believe me, because they add that to all of their bikes, so he went out to check. After he ate some crow, he installed the cable to the bike. I've been charging from it ever since and have been much happier.
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post #3 of 40 Old May 21st, 2019, 9:43 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by N00bie RT Gawd View Post
I gave up trying to charge through the 12v outlet. My '16 didn't come with the SAE connector. One day, while shooting the shit at the dealership, I mentioned that. The guy who sold me the bike didn't believe me, because they add that to all of their bikes, so he went out to check. After he ate some crow, he installed the cable to the bike. I've been charging from it ever since and have been much happier.
I can't agree more with that statement!
I am trying ti use this thing:
Charging issue again...-rn8apt44qlsdhhd-fts8sw.jpg

Don't you love the BMW User Manual... It indicates if you charge the battery with any other charger all your electronics will blow up, your bike with melt, you'll be sentenced to death etc.... unless you use the magical BMW charger. They spent 2 pages mentioning that crap.
So, I said, oooookay, so how to do it with that special magical BMW Charger? Well manual says, if you have this magical charger " ask your BMW service"... Is this a damn mystery? Why they can't explain with half a page explanation?

Geez!

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
'18 R1200RT
'18 K1600GTL
'16 R1200GSA
'14 R1200RT
'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
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'07 K1200LT
'05 R1150RT-P
'99 HONDA Valkyrie
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'05 K1200LT
'05 HONDA Goldwing GL1800
'99 HONDA Valkyrie Interstate
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post #4 of 40 Old May 21st, 2019, 10:10 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

My dealer told me to take off the side cover (R1200RTW) and attach the SAE pigtail to the obvious +/- connections brought out from the battery. They are factory crimped rings and I used a bit of Jet-Lube™ SS-30 Pure Copper Anti-Seize paste to prevent corrosion. Available DX Engineering. I then used a couple of black cable ties ot secure the Wires ot the frame and fed the SAE connection between the cover and the frame. The SAE connection has a cap that protects inadvertent shorting if not in use.

Friends who ride the GSA use this connection for heated gloves and jacket apparel rather than going through another very expensive CANBUS connections device..

Works for me with the same type of charger you have Captain!

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post #5 of 40 Old May 21st, 2019, 10:36 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post
I can't agree more with that statement!
I am trying ti use this thing:
Attachment 151769

Don't you love the BMW User Manual... It indicates if you charge the battery with any other charger all your electronics will blow up, your bike with melt, you'll be sentenced to death etc.... unless you use the magical BMW charger. They spent 2 pages mentioning that crap.
So, I said, oooookay, so how to do it with that special magical BMW Charger? Well manual says, if you have this magical charger " ask your BMW service"... Is this a damn mystery? Why they can't explain with half a page explanation?

Geez!
Wow- you're using the "official" charger and still having issues? Is the charger itself defective? I use the OptiMate.

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post #6 of 40 Old May 21st, 2019, 10:48 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Noco chargers are Cambus ready. I have the G3500. Max amperage is 3.5. It works through the BMW powerport.
This charger has multiple modes.
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post #7 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 12:00 am Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Charger is ok. When I cycle the starter switch it begins to charge then about3 minutes later Canbus system shuts the connection down and No Charging light begins to flash.
If I cycle again, then it begins to charge again for another 3 minutes and again cuts it off!

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
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'16 R1200GSA
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post #8 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 12:19 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Most people use the SAE connector but I wanted to be able to charge my phone and run aux equipment off the battery if necessary. So I wired in a regular cigarette lighter socket straight to the battery. Then I replaced the SAE connector on the end of my charger cable with a lighter plug and just plug it in. No damage to the whizbang gizmos on the bike and my battery can be a source of power whenever I need it.

And yes, I'm fully aware of possibly discharging my battery past minimum starting voltage. Hasn't happened yet.

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post #9 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 2:47 am
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Talking Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
When I cycle the starter switch it begins to charge then about3 minutes later Canbus system shuts the connection down and No Charging light begins to flash.
If I cycle again, then it begins to charge again for another 3 minutes and again cuts it off!
So glad you found a solution.

Ian
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post #10 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 5:04 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post


My new GSA does not have the pigtail connection like my RT had.
So my only option is to attach the darn BMW charger to 12V outlet. But after I do that and cycle the starter switch it begins to charge and only about 2 minutes it cuts off and NOT CHARGING light is back on.. (Red Flashing)

Sometimes I hate technology!
Why not go out and buy a battery tender? It comes with the pigtail. Takes a couple of minutes to install and your done. You can buy one here. They make fancier ones also.https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tende...gateway&sr=8-3
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post #11 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 5:50 am
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[QUOTE

Why not go out and buy a battery tender? It comes with the pigtail. Takes a couple of minutes to install and your done. You can buy one here. They make fancier ones also.https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tende...gateway&sr=8-3[/QUOTE]

I use a simple battery tender...direct to the battery...pig tail easy to access....works fine...2014 RT
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post #12 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post


My new GSA does not have the pigtail connection like my RT had.
So my only option is to attach the darn BMW charger to 12V outlet. But after I do that and cycle the starter switch it begins to charge and only about 2 minutes it cuts off and NOT CHARGING light is back on.. (Red Flashing)

Sometimes I hate technology!
OK...I know that going against family tradition and getting an education did not remove all the hillbilly in me, but unless I'm misunderstanding the original post above...I don't see a problem here??? In fact, if I had a NEW bike (with a NEW battery) I think I would be pissed if the new battery needed to charge for more than a couple of minutes from merely cycling the start switch?

Seriously...it seems to me that a good new battery would naturally recover in a couple of minutes to not need any further charging until such time that the charge depletes enough for it's sensor to kick back in.
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post #13 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 11:12 am Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer tiger View Post
OK...I know that going against family tradition and getting an education did not remove all the hillbilly in me, but unless I'm misunderstanding the original post above...I don't see a problem here??? In fact, if I had a NEW bike (with a NEW battery) I think I would be pissed if the new battery needed to charge for more than a couple of minutes from merely cycling the start switch?

Seriously...it seems to me that a good new battery would naturally recover in a couple of minutes to not need any further charging until such time that the charge depletes enough for it's sensor to kick back in.
Please remember this NEW bike of mine was a 2018 leftover at the dealership. So it was sitting on a high display for a long time I guess. While they were preparing the bike to handover to me at the dealership they indicated that the battery was showing a little low and they were charging it. At that time I told them that as long as it starts I am ok because dealership to my home was a 4 hr ride and it will be charged enough along that trip.
So when I arrived home I just wanted to be sure it is 100% charged and wanted to attach my BMW charger to make it sure.

That's all. Maybe it is currently 80% or 90% or even 100% charged. I just wanted to make it sure.

I am sure if there's a misunderstanding it's my fault maybe I am not explaining it correctly.
Dealership says (I am NO expert in these issues at all) CanBus shuts the plug in 2-3 minutes as a safety feature. Like if you left an electronic device attached not to leave it on or so I guess. But again I am not sure.

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
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'18 K1600GTL
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'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
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post #14 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 11:44 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post
I can't agree more with that statement!
I am trying ti use this thing:
Attachment 151769

Don't you love the BMW User Manual... It indicates if you charge the battery with any other charger all your electronics will blow up, your bike with melt, you'll be sentenced to death etc.... unless you use the magical BMW charger. They spent 2 pages mentioning that crap.
So, I said, oooookay, so how to do it with that special magical BMW Charger? Well manual says, if you have this magical charger " ask your BMW service"... Is this a damn mystery? Why they can't explain with half a page explanation?

Geez!
They are probably talking about a battery charger vrs a battery tender and maintainer. Different properties. I have the battery tender with a pig tail to my battery. used it with no problems on three different bikes for years.

Your Bmw battery tender looks suspiciously like it was built by battery tender. Same as the Battery Tender Plus 021-0128, 1.25 Amp Battery Charger. I wonder if it is the same thing.
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post #15 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 1:05 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

I am with tiger on this one. If your battery is fully charged and the canbus system detects that then I think it will turn the connection off. If the battery falls below a certain voltage, the system turns the connection back on till the voltage rises, then off again.

Thatís the way it should work...I think.
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post #16 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 2:55 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee4BMW View Post
I am with tiger on this one. If your battery is fully charged and the canbus system detects that then I think it will turn the connection off. If the battery falls below a certain voltage, the system turns the connection back on till the voltage rises, then off again.

Thatís the way it should work...I think.
I think your correct. I just purchased a Norco charger and it's Canbus compatible. I noticed the charger went into standby mode after it indicated full charge. Even though it was in a maintenance mode for a while the Canbus shut off the charging mode.
I recycled a few times but it still shut off after a few minutes. I put a small load on the battery and the charger went through its steps and stayed on until it shut down again after it indicated full charge. Unless you want to keep the charger on indefinitely I suggest you plug into the battery directly. There are several ways you can do this. I added a powerport on the right rear side to the battery and use this for direct hookup.
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post #17 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 5:13 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee4BMW View Post
I am with tiger on this one. If your battery is fully charged and the canbus system detects that then I think it will turn the connection off. If the battery falls below a certain voltage, the system turns the connection back on till the voltage rises, then off again.

Thatís the way it should work...I think.

You could leave your lights on for awhile and run it down and see if the charger kicks in when it gets low enough.
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post #18 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 7:41 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

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Originally Posted by Pabst View Post
You could leave your lights on for awhile and run it down and see if the charger kicks in when it gets low enough.
I used this battery charger/tender (whatever it is), before on my '18 RT and my older '16 GSA... t

Here's how it worked before;

When you attach it to the bike, normally:

- first RED light comes on steady meaning it is charging,
- then GREEN light starts flashing once the battery charge level reaches 80% or better,
- finally when battery level reaches 100% and charge process is completed GREEN light becomes steady and charger goes into TRICKLE mode while the steady GREEN light stays on.

I have witnessed this over many times. But not with this bike...
Next time I am at the dealership I'll ask them to attach the pigtail thingy so I don't have to go thru the stupid Canbus system.

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
'18 R1200RT
'18 K1600GTL
'16 R1200GSA
'14 R1200RT
'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
'03 R1150RT-P
'07 K1200LT
'05 R1150RT-P
'99 HONDA Valkyrie
'06 R1150RT-P
'05 K1200LT
'05 HONDA Goldwing GL1800
'99 HONDA Valkyrie Interstate
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'98 YAMAHA Super Tenere
'93 HONDA CBR 1000F
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post #19 of 40 Old May 22nd, 2019, 9:49 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

The canbus logic might be different on the newer bike.
It's worth researching before making modifications or alterations.
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Last edited by 6speedTi; May 22nd, 2019 at 11:24 pm.
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post #20 of 40 Old May 23rd, 2019, 5:34 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee4BMW View Post
Most people use the SAE connector but I wanted to be able to charge my phone and run aux equipment off the battery if necessary. So I wired in a regular cigarette lighter socket straight to the battery. Then I replaced the SAE connector on the end of my charger cable with a lighter plug and just plug it in. No damage to the whizbang gizmos on the bike and my battery can be a source of power whenever I need it.

And yes, I'm fully aware of possibly discharging my battery past minimum starting voltage. Hasn't happened yet.
Um...make sure you put a fuse on the hot wire leading from the battery to your lighter socket. Discharging the battery is not the only hazard with your set-up.

Cheers!
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post #21 of 40 Old May 23rd, 2019, 5:47 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post
I used this battery charger/tender (whatever it is), before on my '18 RT and my older '16 GSA... t

Here's how it worked before;

When you attach it to the bike, normally:

- first RED light comes on steady meaning it is charging,
- then GREEN light starts flashing once the battery charge level reaches 80% or better,
- finally when battery level reaches 100% and charge process is completed GREEN light becomes steady and charger goes into TRICKLE mode while the steady GREEN light stays on.

I have witnessed this over many times. But not with this bike...
Next time I am at the dealership I'll ask them to attach the pigtail thingy so I don't have to go thru the stupid Canbus system.
Pig tails are cheap. I've been installing them on all my bikes for years and I'm still alive. LOL
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post #22 of 40 Old May 23rd, 2019, 10:09 pm
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Capt,
I am with getting a pigtail. I cant remember if you got a new GS, if so, the dealership owes you a pigtail.

If not, get one. In your travels it becomes a handy source of power for btt, but also for your portable air compressor--you do have one of those, right?
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post #23 of 40 Old May 24th, 2019, 1:30 am Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wethead View Post
Capt,
I am with getting a pigtail. I cant remember if you got a new GS, if so, the dealership owes you a pigtail.

If not, get one. In your travels it becomes a handy source of power for btt, but also for your portable air compressor--you do have one of those, right?
Yep new GSA but even if the dealership installs it for free I won't go 4 hrs S of me to Los Angeles just for a pigtail!

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
'18 R1200RT
'18 K1600GTL
'16 R1200GSA
'14 R1200RT
'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
'03 R1150RT-P
'07 K1200LT
'05 R1150RT-P
'99 HONDA Valkyrie
'06 R1150RT-P
'05 K1200LT
'05 HONDA Goldwing GL1800
'99 HONDA Valkyrie Interstate
'98 HONDA SHADOW
'98 YAMAHA Super Tenere
'93 HONDA CBR 1000F
'91 HONDA Transalp
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post #24 of 40 Old May 24th, 2019, 11:56 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

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Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post
Yep new GSA but even if the dealership installs it for free I won't go 4 hrs S of me to Los Angeles just for a pigtail!
Make it a ride Cpt. Visit beautiful downtown LA and enjoy the symphonic sounds of its traffic melodies.

I don't believe its that difficult to install a pigtail. If I get a chance today, I 'll search for a video with instructions on how to; but I am guessing there is a bunch of dudes in this forum that know how also.

Every Beemer I ever bought came with a pigtail: 4 RT/s and a GT.


BTW: That's 260 mi. ride, at 100mph on the I-5 and some 110, ah! 2 hrs max. hehehehe
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post #25 of 40 Old May 24th, 2019, 8:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wethead View Post
Make it a ride Cpt. Visit beautiful downtown LA and enjoy the symphonic sounds of its traffic melodies.

I don't believe its that difficult to install a pigtail. If I get a chance today, I 'll search for a video with instructions on how to; but I am guessing there is a bunch of dudes in this forum that know how also.

Every Beemer I ever bought came with a pigtail: 4 RT/s and a GT.


BTW: That's 260 mi. ride, at 100mph on the I-5 and some 110, ah! 2 hrs max. hehehehe
100-110???
What do you think I am riding buddy? A 3 legged donkey?
C'mon man I never go below 120mph.

At sharp turns sometimes I slow down to 118-119; But that's it !!!

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
'18 R1200RT
'18 K1600GTL
'16 R1200GSA
'14 R1200RT
'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
'03 R1150RT-P
'07 K1200LT
'05 R1150RT-P
'99 HONDA Valkyrie
'06 R1150RT-P
'05 K1200LT
'05 HONDA Goldwing GL1800
'99 HONDA Valkyrie Interstate
'98 HONDA SHADOW
'98 YAMAHA Super Tenere
'93 HONDA CBR 1000F
'91 HONDA Transalp
'88 JAWA 500
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post #26 of 40 Old May 25th, 2019, 11:07 pm
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OP, does your charger have a regular and Canbus mode? The Optimate does. Is it possible that your charger isnt in canbus mode?
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post #27 of 40 Old May 26th, 2019, 12:23 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Installing the pigtail is way too easy. Tougher part is deciding where to attach the cable and connector body. I popped out and tywrapped the body to a frame . It is rigid mounted. Did this on Wideglide too. 4 hours north of LA means you are 2 1/2 - 3 south of the bay area. Bring it to my house and play install a pigtail and have a beer .

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Jeff M.
2002 Harley Dyna Wideglide
2016 BMW R1200RT
2009 BMW K1300GT sold
1976 BMW R90/6 sold
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post #28 of 40 Old May 26th, 2019, 12:34 am Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkipZ View Post
OP, does your charger have a regular and Canbus mode? The Optimate does. Is it possible that your charger isnt in canbus mode?
Nope it is a simple plug and forget it mode only!

Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
'18 R1200RT
'18 K1600GTL
'16 R1200GSA
'14 R1200RT
'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
'03 R1150RT-P
'07 K1200LT
'05 R1150RT-P
'99 HONDA Valkyrie
'06 R1150RT-P
'05 K1200LT
'05 HONDA Goldwing GL1800
'99 HONDA Valkyrie Interstate
'98 HONDA SHADOW
'98 YAMAHA Super Tenere
'93 HONDA CBR 1000F
'91 HONDA Transalp
'88 JAWA 500
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post #29 of 40 Old May 26th, 2019, 9:39 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

I'm heading for same solution. Fused (10A) 12v Direct to Battery cigarette Outlet in Right Hand "Box" , Fast charge for my phone best with Cig Outlet to 3A Out 5v adapter (@5v less at 2A @ 12v) Charge to Phone ALLWAYS. I'm thinking it could run for days before killing battery. Key off.
My Phone is USB-c and quick charges @3A Any Less is Slow charge or Lose charge when Moving (lots more transmissions needed when Phone "on the move" ...) The Gument NEEDS to know where you are ALLWAYS !! Phone will only charge if OFF when on the move. Slow charge on the move = Discharge Why ?
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post #30 of 40 Old May 27th, 2019, 5:57 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Pigtail of the battery is the way to go. My local BMW dealer puts them on every bike he sells. I swapped the SAE pigtail out for one that is a coax for heated bike gear. I then got a SAE to coax plug adapter for my charger. It makes plugging in so much easier. Also, if my brain is not fully functioning when I pull my bike out, the coax plug easily unplugs it self.

Example from Powerlet are a PAC-38 or PAC-39. You can convert an SAE plug already on the bike, and also on your charger.


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post #31 of 40 Old May 27th, 2019, 6:32 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJDavis View Post
Next time I am at the dealership I'll ask them to attach the pigtail thingy so I don't have to go thru the stupid Canbus system.
Amazon can have one at your doorstep in a day.... Takes about 5 minutes to install....

Dano
Tampa, Fl.

12 K1600 GTL
02 K1200 LT (gone but not forgotten)
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post #32 of 40 Old May 27th, 2019, 8:56 am
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Quote:
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Amazon can have one at your doorstep in a day.... Takes about 5 minutes to install....
With Amazon Prime in most areas if you order in the morning it gets delivered same day. Again depends on your area.
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post #33 of 40 Old May 28th, 2019, 4:18 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

You can order a heavy duty #10 gauge pig tail or stop by a gulf cart shop and pick one up. Install it direct to the battery without a fuse. Use it for whatever or you can also use it to jumpstart the bike or another bike.
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post #34 of 40 Old May 28th, 2019, 6:46 pm
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Re: Charging issue again...

Or wait a month and by then you'll have sold this bike and you won't have to deal with this problem.
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2013 R1200RT
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post #35 of 40 Old May 29th, 2019, 11:42 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwood7800 View Post
You can order a heavy duty #10 gauge pig tail or stop by a gulf cart shop and pick one up. Install it direct to the battery without a fuse. Use it for whatever or you can also use it to jumpstart the bike or another bike.
Just curious, why without a fuse?

Ride safe!
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post #36 of 40 Old May 29th, 2019, 5:33 pm
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Just curious, why without a fuse?
Insurance claim? 😲
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post #37 of 40 Old May 30th, 2019, 6:42 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwood7800 View Post
You can order a heavy duty #10 gauge pig tail or stop by a gulf cart shop and pick one up. Install it direct to the battery without a fuse. Use it for whatever or you can also use it to jumpstart the bike or another bike.
You have GOT to be joking. There is NO way we should put a heavy gauge wire directly to the battery. FIT A FUSE!

2003 R1150RT & 2017 R1200RT
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post #38 of 40 Old May 30th, 2019, 8:21 am
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Re: Charging issue again...

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Originally Posted by bandytales View Post
You have GOT to be joking. There is NO way we should put a heavy gauge wire directly to the battery. FIT A FUSE!
My thought exactly.

Ride safe!
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post #39 of 40 Old May 30th, 2019, 10:11 am
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Charging issue again...

Deltran pigtail w/SAE connector and weathercap costs 5$...and includes a weatherproof inline 7.5-amp fuse/fuseholder:



Walmart has them as well.

Bolt it to the battery, route it down the left side and wire-tie it to the frame above the passenger footpeg.

Just do it....


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Last edited by rangemaster; May 30th, 2019 at 10:17 am.
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post #40 of 40 Old May 31st, 2019, 12:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Charging issue again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rangemaster View Post
Deltran pigtail w/SAE connector and weathercap costs 5$...and includes a weatherproof inline 7.5-amp fuse/fuseholder:



Walmart has them as well.

Bolt it to the battery, route it down the left side and wire-tie it to the frame above the passenger footpeg.

Just do it....


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DID IT !!!
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Capt.Jim
2018 R1200 GSA
--------------------------
'18 R1200RT
'18 K1600GTL
'16 R1200GSA
'14 R1200RT
'12 K1600GTL
'06 R1200GS
'03 R1150RT-P
'07 K1200LT
'05 R1150RT-P
'99 HONDA Valkyrie
'06 R1150RT-P
'05 K1200LT
'05 HONDA Goldwing GL1800
'99 HONDA Valkyrie Interstate
'98 HONDA SHADOW
'98 YAMAHA Super Tenere
'93 HONDA CBR 1000F
'91 HONDA Transalp
'88 JAWA 500
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