Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 8:52 pm Thread Starter
 
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Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Getting ready to take a long trip and looking for a new touring jacket that has armor, liners, mesh options, vents etc to take me from hot to cold climates and not too shabby in the rain as well.

I have been checking out the BMW Ralley Pro II Motorade Jacket in Grey, but don't know if I want to drop $650. after my dealer discount. (Any great sources on discounted BMW Apparel?) on the jacket. Anyone using one?

Would appreciate any recommendations and perhaps discount source, online or otherwise. I have rain gear already and figure I can use the pants with the all round jacket when needed.
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post #2 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 9:07 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Try Chicago BMW for discounts on BMW gear. As for other options, I have 2 Olympia suits; Bushwacker jacket and Airglide pants for summer, and AST jacket and Ranger pants for colder weather. The latter is waterproof with good venting in the jacket, removeable quilted liners for the jacket and pants, and is really nice stuff at a reasonable price. You can get the hole suit for what the BMW jacket will cost and probably have $100 or more left over.

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post #3 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 9:22 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Hi Tom,
I've never quite been able to figure out what would ever justify the BMW Gear prices ... then again -- have (thankfully) never had a "get off" at speed to see how long I could slide before the gear wears away entirely.
My SO & I use TourMaster's Transition Jackets and they are great. Have all the features you mentioned ..... I certainly am confident in suggesting the same for you. Have a look here -- great dealer !
http://www.whitehorsepress.com/produ...oducts_id=5465
Best,
Keir
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post #4 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 9:29 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

I have yet to do the long range trek so I can not comment on long distance comfort BUT>>>
I sure can testify to the Olympia Bushwacker jackets safety.. I would not be here if I did not have it on when I hit the deer last month. With about 600 feet of asphalt in my slide the jacket is tore up real good but every single armor held in place. The only failure at all was my error in getting a 2XL for room to layer extra warmth. I fit to a Large and even more relaxed with a XL. The 2XL rode up enough to let some of the armor position itself in a less than adequate location. Something to take into consideration when choosing your size.....
In fact I will be replacing my Bushwacker this weekend with another, only this one will be my size...
Brian
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post #5 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 9:42 pm Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Thanks for the tip. Glad you're still with us after the bout with the deer! Where is a good source for the Olympia gear?
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post #6 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 9:51 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

I have to say I have Summer and Winter Olympia Gear. I love the gear and the price. I have heard a few stories of get offs where it saved the bacon as mentioned above.

I am sure there is better but if you cant afford it or don't want to pay the prices for it, the Olimpia is great gear.

It seems pretty well made, the liners are great, although I never tested the waterproof of either, as I have a dedicated rain suite I carry. The mesh Summer is pretty nice and is pretty comfortable into the 90s moving, stop and go no gear is comfortable, period.

It sure beats a blank.

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post #7 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 9:57 pm Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by wkclark
Hi Tom,
I've never quite been able to figure out what would ever justify the BMW Gear prices ... then again -- have (thankfully) never had a "get off" at speed to see how long I could slide before the gear wears away entirely.
My SO & I use TourMaster's Transition Jackets and they are great. Have all the features you mentioned ..... I certainly am confident in suggesting the same for you. Have a look here -- great dealer !
http://www.whitehorsepress.com/produ...oducts_id=5465
Best,
Keir
Thanks for the recommendation. I actually have looked at these jackets several times online. Can't remember if they have detachable sleeves exposing mesh n armor though. Don't think so, though they have vents. Cool enough in the hot weather? What type of liner do they have? I seem to be comparing to the BMW jacket having gortex and fleece. I so don't want to spend the money. Take care.
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post #8 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 10:05 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Tom, I just saw you are in Ann Arbor too. Welcome....
I got my Olympia gear at BMW in Canton. All in stock. Speak with Audrey and she will take great care of you and might even help with the cost.
My observation on the jacket was that it was plenty warm for any riding I would ever do. The Liner removed allows some venting but I tend to think it does not vent as well as others. I was not uncomfortable though when on the road.
I should get my bike next week. Will be looking forward to meeting up with you..
Brian
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post #9 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 10:17 pm Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

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Originally Posted by Launchpad
Tom, I just saw you are in Ann Arbor too. Welcome....
I got my Olympia gear at BMW in Canton. All in stock. Speak with Audrey and she will take great care of you and might even help with the cost.
My observation on the jacket was that it was plenty warm for any riding I would ever do. The Liner removed allows some venting but I tend to think it does not vent as well as others. I was not uncomfortable though when on the road.
I should get my bike next week. Will be looking forward to meeting up with you..
Brian
Brighton is pretty close. Sure let me know when you get it back and we can take a nice ride somewhere. Check out my profile website for contact info. I was over to the dealership yesterday and they have a nice Olmpia with larger vents in the front. Grey or lum yellow. Check it out.
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post #10 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 11:12 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Tom....I highly recommend Olympia products....I have their jacket(s) and overpants and find them very comfortable, functional and reasonably priced....usually buy the hi=viz yellow for optimum exposure.......lsd
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post #11 of 37 Old Aug 1st, 2008, 11:50 pm
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Hi Tom,

I know saving a buck or two is crucial but I really think that good protection is more important in my book. I just purchased after doing "lots" of shopping and "lots" of research the FXRG leather, not the cheapest but one amazing Jacket.

Here's the link with an amazing review.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/26october06_fxrg.htm


Good Luck,


Johnny
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post #12 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 1:01 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

I use a Cortech HRX jacket. It is leather (in impact areas), mesh and textile. It has CE armor in the shoulders, elbows and back and also has exterior armor on the shoulders. It comes with an insulated thermal liner and a wind/waterproof liner as well. It retails for $265 but I was able to get it from NewEnough on E-bay for $81.
Once you find the jacket you want, I would suggest looking them (NewEnough) up on E-bay and see if you can maybe get it at a bargain price
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post #13 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 2:26 am
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

First Gear Kilamanjaro for about 85 degrees and below, and Joe Rocket mesh for hot. Both do an excellent job. My brother wears a BMW Santiago suit, and he claims it is good year round. Might be worth the money in that case.
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post #14 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 6:25 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

I keep coming back to my Aerostitch Darien jacket.
I have an Olympia, a BMW jacket, and the Darien.

For long rides I still take the Darien. Excellent water resistance. Once I figured out how to utilize the vent system it runs cooler that my Olympia mesh jacket.

Putting on a new Darien isn't as comfortable as some other new jackets. But once it is broken in and you have figured out how to use the vents, fold the collar, etc. it is a great all round jacket IMO.

Stopping to put on a water proof liner when the rain starts is a PITA, no need to do that with the Darien.

The pocket configuration on the Darien is more utilitarian than either of my other jackets.

I have had the Darien for 8 years now. It has been back for repairs once during that period and was returned to me looking like a new jacket.

It may not be as stylish, or as comfy when you first put it on, but after miles on the road, the Darien is my first choice. It is designed really well.

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post #15 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 7:07 am
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Buy the lightest color you can find. Black is sooooooo hotSilver or very light grey is best IMHO.
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post #16 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 7:32 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
I keep coming back to my Aerostitch Darien jacket.
I have an Olympia, a BMW jacket, and the Darien.

For long rides I still take the Darien. Excellent water resistance. Once I figured out how to utilize the vent system it runs cooler that my Olympia mesh jacket.

Putting on a new Darien isn't as comfortable as some other new jackets. But once it is broken in and you have figured out how to use the vents, fold the collar, etc. it is a great all round jacket IMO.

Stopping to put on a water proof liner when the rain starts is a PITA, no need to do that with the Darien.

The pocket configuration on the Darien is more utilitarian than either of my other jackets.

I have had the Darien for 8 years now. It has been back for repairs once during that period and was returned to me looking like a new jacket.

It may not be as stylish, or as comfy when you first put it on, but after miles on the road, the Darien is my first choice. It is designed really well.

Disclaimer.... no associate with "stitch" stuff, yadda, yadda....
Thanks for the Aerostich Darien recommendation. Any recommendations as to source? You mentioned you had a BMW product too. Is it similar to the Ralleye Pro II?
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post #17 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 7:44 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

I too will give a great review of the Olympia Bushwhacker jacket. If you can stand it, the safety yellow is REALLY BRIGHT. That color is just not for me, so I went with the silver. I've ridden with it in 90+ temperatures and unlike other mesh gear, it doesn't let as much air through it, thus saving your skin from drying out and slows dehydrating. I ride in temps as low as 65 without the liner. The liner is waterproof and DOES NOT breathe. It's HOT! I rode last winter a few times with the jacket and liner and didn't need the heated vest. This jacket and a heated vest give me a 4 season riding jacket.

Bought mine from Bobs BMW last year at national rally in West Bend, WI. Best purchase I made in a long time.

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post #18 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 7:56 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetflyerJ
Hi Tom,

I know saving a buck or two is crucial but I really think that good protection is more important in my book. I just purchased after doing "lots" of shopping and "lots" of research the FXRG leather, not the cheapest but one amazing Jacket.

Here's the link with an amazing review.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/26october06_fxrg.htm


Good Luck,


Johnny
Thanks for the recommendation. I read the glowing review you passed on and it seems like a great product. Though they say it gets too hot above 85. I notice that you are in FL, so do you concur?
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post #19 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 7:59 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Just checked my invoices from Olympia...my bushwacker jacket retails at $249 (I paid $200); my Airglide2 mesh tech overpants retails for $189 (I paid $140); my AST Touring jacket retails for $289 (I paid $225). Again, I got the hi-viz yellow but they also come in silver and black....

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post #20 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 8:16 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstachler
Getting ready to take a long trip and looking for a new touring jacket that has armor, liners, mesh options, vents etc to take me from hot to cold climates and not too shabby in the rain as well.

I have been checking out the BMW Ralley Pro II Motorade Jacket in Grey, but don't know if I want to drop $650. after my dealer discount. (Any great sources on discounted BMW Apparel?) on the jacket. Anyone using one?

Would appreciate any recommendations and perhaps discount source, online or otherwise. I have rain gear already and figure I can use the pants with the all round jacket when needed.
My wife and I bought BMW Commuter 3 jackets earlier this year when they were on close-out. I don't know if any are still available, but we got them for almost half of list price. Still pricey, but at $279 (if memory servers) each, I didn't think it was too bad a deal. Olympia was next on our list.

I think the Commuter is oriented towards milder weather, although I can wear mine down to 50 without the thermal liner and I've ridden the 20 miles to work at temps in the low 30s and was pretty comfortable. I don't think I would want to ride 8 hours in the 30s with just a dress shirt under the jacket, but I think if I added a chamois shirt I could ride all day in the 30s with this jacket and liner.

It is especially nice in hot weather. Our previous jackes were Hein Gericke Concords and while there were great jackets, the black leather was excruciating when the temps got in the 90s. I can ride with the Commuter three at 95 degrees and still be reasonably comfortable. I do admit though that I felt safer in the heavy leather. I really wonder if the armor would stay in place during a slide down the highway as it is easy to move the pads around a bit on the elbows and shoulders.

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post #21 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 8:21 am
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstachler
Thanks for the recommendation. I read the glowing review you passed on and it seems like a great product. Though they say it gets too hot above 85. I notice that you are in FL, so do you concur?
Hi Tom,

Yes I'm in South Florida and with temperatures just under 100 degrees I still wear the jacket as it ventilates surprisingly well, I do not wear the Primaloft warmth liner that doubles as a lightweight jacket in such high temperatures. I rather sweat it out "at times" than not be protected at all times especially with all the incredible, irresponsible and careless drivers the South Florida area has to offer. My safety has higher priority then anything else.

Good Luck,


Johnny.

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post #22 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 8:22 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstachler
Where is a good source for the Olympia gear?
I bought mine new AirGlide Jacket from Mike at Tellico Outfitters.

Great Guy! Had the jacket shipped directly from the factory. Be sure to meantion the website. He stocks the entire line up. I visted his shop at STC this past April and was very impressed.

I plan on using this jacket with the waterproof liner with my BMW Summer Pants for Spring/Summer and Fall. For those colder days, I'll use my Belstaff Adventure/Tourmaster Sirraco pants combination.. I rode in a pooring rain for 4 hours and I was bone dry underneath. I only got wet because the cuffs of my jeans wicked the rain all the way up to my crotch! That was not fun but I learned to always tuck my cuffs into the boots or under the motorcycle pants.

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post #23 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 8:23 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

http://www.newenough.com/closeouts/t...le_jacket.html

This seems like a real good deal for decent quality.

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post #24 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 10:13 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstachler
Thanks for the Aerostich Darien recommendation. Any recommendations as to source? You mentioned you had a BMW product too. Is it similar to the Ralleye Pro II?
I bought the Darien (I have the pants too) directly from riderwearhouse.

http://www.aerostich.com/catalog/US/...p-1-c-250.html

I bought the fleece liner with the Darien but wouldn't do it again. Nice quality liner, too bulky. I wear it around in winter, but don't take it on long trips in warm weather.

If I recall correctly, I took a bunch of self measurments according to their instructions and they send me the stuff.

My BMW jacket is a Rally jacket not sure what model. I've had it several years. It is a good quality jacket, the waterproof liner was an expensive option and I did not purchase it. It has zippers which open up the sleeves and it is a good hot weather jacket but it is not an all round jacket.

The trick is to find a good jacket which works in all conditions so you don't have to carry a bunch of extra stuff on a long trip. The Darien with a light weight liner or a Gerbing heated liner in cold weather, works for me as an all round jacket.
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post #25 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 10:51 pm Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdpoet
Just checked my invoices from Olympia...my bushwacker jacket retails at $249 (I paid $200); my Airglide2 mesh tech overpants retails for $189 (I paid $140); my AST Touring jacket retails for $289 (I paid $225). Again, I got the hi-viz yellow but they also come in silver and black....
Do you like your AST better than the Bushwacker?
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post #26 of 37 Old Aug 2nd, 2008, 11:59 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
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Do you like your AST better than the Bushwacker?

I like the AST in the winter months....otherwise, Bushwacker is great for remainder of the year....lsd

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post #27 of 37 Old Aug 3rd, 2008, 7:39 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Cortech denier jacket (red in color) and Joe Rocket 2.0 pants for winter (Oct/Nov-April here in Waco); Joe Rocker Ballistic mesh (yellow) and Technik mesh pants for summer. I find 50 degrees is the cutoff and time to stow the mesh jacket for commuting.

I believe in contrast. Black is hot, grey is not enough of a contrast (for me).

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post #28 of 37 Old Aug 3rd, 2008, 10:21 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

I bought an Olympia Bushwacker in Hi Vis yellow this spring and really like it. Nice mesh in the front and underside of arms provide good air flow combined with shoulder, elbow and back armor make for great protection. Pretty warm with the zip in water proof liner too. About $225 at the dealer as I recall. I have a Vanson fully perfed leather jacket and pants set ($1100) but actually prefer the Olympia. I guess if I were sliding down the high way after an unexpected get off the Vanson may have an advantage but don't want to find out.

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post #29 of 37 Old Aug 3rd, 2008, 11:08 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdpoet
Just checked my invoices from Olympia...my bushwacker jacket retails at $249 (I paid $200); my Airglide2 mesh tech overpants retails for $189 (I paid $140); my AST Touring jacket retails for $289 (I paid $225). Again, I got the hi-viz yellow but they also come in silver and black....
Thanks for all the help everyone! Yesterday I went to our local BMW dealer and they had the Olympia products and they were really nice. I like the high vis yellow actually and both the AST and Bushwacker made it hard to pick a favorite. The other recommendations seemed great too, but it does help to try them out and take a closer look in person...which is difficult sometimes for all products.

In the end, I said the heck with it and went with my first inclination and spent the money on the BMW Ralley 2 Pro jacket with the hydration system option. They have the gortex liners, pockets like everyone else, but I really like the zip off sleeve option exposing the mesh/armor which makes a vented vest for really hot days. I also like the fit and the armor was a bit different in design as well. So, time will tell and I really appreciate all the comments/suggestion and time everybody provided. Thanks again.

Now I need to find a good childs jacket (with armor) for a 10 year old occasional passenger. Any ideas? Thus far I have haven't found even one choice???
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post #30 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2008, 11:58 pm
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

My wife and I have worn our Cortech GX-Air for the last 2 years in temperatures from 23 to 113 (not that anything qualifies as comfortable at 113). I like having one all-weather jacket so I can just carry liners with me and be ready for anything. I wear a wet vest under it when it gets into the upper 90s. I add the windbreaker liner when it drops below 70, and the thermal liner when it gets into the 50s. Add a sweatshirt under when it gets below about 40.

My wife likes to be warmer than me and tends to wear one more layer than I do most of the time. And she has a heated jacket liner for when she gets cold.

I would love to find something with this range that was even cooler in the 90s, but this is the best I've found so far.

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post #31 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 1:58 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstachler
Now I need to find a good childs jacket (with armor) for a 10 year old occasional passenger. Any ideas? Thus far I have haven't found even one choice???
That depends on your 10 yr old's size. When my son was 11 (last year) I got him a Joe Rocket jacket with liner and full armor. The jacket is yellow w some black and is about 50/50 leather & textile. I got him a men's small and it fits pretty good. Check E bay (again ,New Enough), the small sizes usually go for cheap because most people are at least a medium. If a men's small is too big still, look for an XS or even a women's small.
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post #32 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 8:25 am
 
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

As a former Harley rider, I had purchased a HD 3-in-1 convertible jacket. It is now 4 years old and I still love it. The inner liner is removeable and waterproof. Part of the outer textile shell unzips and can be removed to expose a vented material. The Jacket has full CE armour that can be removed. I have ridden in temperatures ranging from 40 to 95 degrees and it works great! Cost was $250.
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post #33 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 8:42 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstachler
Getting ready to take a long trip and looking for a new touring jacket that has armor, liners, mesh options, vents etc to take me from hot to cold climates and not too shabby in the rain as well.

I have been checking out the BMW Ralley Pro II Motorade Jacket in Grey, but don't know if I want to drop $650. after my dealer discount. (Any great sources on discounted BMW Apparel?) on the jacket. Anyone using one?

Would appreciate any recommendations and perhaps discount source, online or otherwise. I have rain gear already and figure I can use the pants with the all round jacket when needed.
This may be too late to throw in the fray, butt I just finished reading the Rider Magazine reviews (page 90 of the Sept issue) for All-Weather Riding Suit Buyers Guide. Granted, might be a leetle product-makers wording in there, butt at least, they present a dozen or so Ballistic jackets/suits in a readable, compo format, with what I gather are MSRPs. Worth a read at your local Barnes & Noble magazine aisle (with a *$$ to ease the MSRP shock!!). Good luck in your search, if you've not yet made a decision.
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post #34 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 9:06 am
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Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
http://www.newenough.com/closeouts/t...le_jacket.html

This seems like a real good deal for decent quality.

Just received this one and wore it to a local club meeting and then home through a horrific rain storm. After it started to hail and the cats started falling I pulled under a station canopy over and put on the Fogg Toggs Jacket. It was still dry underneath but I had 40+ miles to ride on an Interstate.

Great value and quite fashionable as well. Now what do I do the with the other four jackets I have?

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PMitchell is offline  
post #35 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 3:04 pm Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 33
Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
That depends on your 10 yr old's size. When my son was 11 (last year) I got him a Joe Rocket jacket with liner and full armor. The jacket is yellow w some black and is about 50/50 leather & textile. I got him a men's small and it fits pretty good. Check E bay (again ,New Enough), the small sizes usually go for cheap because most people are at least a medium. If a men's small is too big still, look for an XS or even a women's small.
Thanks for the tip. Yes I was thinking about a womans XS perhaps. I did find a few MX jackets for kids with armor, but not really cruising types. Safe riding.
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post #36 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 3:09 pm Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 33
Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcliffor
As a former Harley rider, I had purchased a HD 3-in-1 convertible jacket. It is now 4 years old and I still love it. The inner liner is removeable and waterproof. Part of the outer textile shell unzips and can be removed to expose a vented material. The Jacket has full CE armour that can be removed. I have ridden in temperatures ranging from 40 to 95 degrees and it works great! Cost was $250.
Thanks for the tip. I have already purchased the BMW Pro II with their version of the cameback hydrapack. So far the only complaint is the black sleeves etc. They get hot, even though they do zip off. I am not a big fan of the blue alternate trim color, but that may have been better than the black. Minimize Black color as much as possible!
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post #37 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2008, 3:27 pm Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 33
Re: Looking for Tour Jacket Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMitchell
Just received this one and wore it to a local club meeting and then home through a horrific rain storm. After it started to hail and the cats started falling I pulled under a station canopy over and put on the Fogg Toggs Jacket. It was still dry underneath but I had 40+ miles to ride on an Interstate.

Great value and quite fashionable as well. Now what do I do the with the other four jackets I have?
Yes I saw that jacket. That is a great link that you provided to. 20 images really helps when buying online. I like the zipout armor mesh jacket concept too and you don't have to buckle or snap a waist belt everytime you put it on. Just set up the adjusting midriff belt and leave it. Good luck with the product, looks like a good one. Here are some links to the product I did end up with.
http://www.ascycles.com/detail.aspx?ID=43912
http://www.pashnit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11073
Take care.
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