GORETEX "UNDERNEATH" ?? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 8 Old Jan 18th, 2008, 7:07 am Thread Starter
 
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GORETEX "UNDERNEATH" ??

Dummy here -- looking at some BMW jackets like the City, etc. I don't get how wearing a Goretex Liner UNDERNEATH the jacket is their preferred method of waterproofing.

I get that it still prevents getting wet to my skin -- BUT - won't the jacket get soaked and heavy?

Any owners with experience? Many thnx, BTSOOM
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post #2 of 8 Old Jan 18th, 2008, 8:11 am
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Wetness

Jimbo

I have a Savanah2 jacket which has a removable liner. While you are correct that it seems a bit strange to have a seperate liner you should bear in mind that unless the outer fabric has some fancy treatments the waterproofness is then supplied by a layer of Gortex (or similar) bonded onto the inside of the material.

So both outers would strictly speaking absorb the same amount of water, but the bonded one will really only dry from the one side.

If the bonded waterproof layer becomes damaged the whole jacket has to be replaced. A friend of mine recently got a new liner for an old BMW Kilimanjaro jacket that he really likes so did not need the whole jacket.

Cordura has a certain amount of water resistance that can be increased with Nikiwax or similar. This would likely give enough protection to survive light summer showers. Add the liner and you increase the warmth of the jacket for spring and autumn and it is then meant to be completely waterproof when there may be more rain present and gives you 2 jackets in one.

So there are pros and cons to both types.

There is a jacket that has different outers - a Halvarssons Safety Jacket
http://tinyurl.com/29uwmq
They also do a matching trousers
http://tinyurl.com/23o9g3

The suit came out quite well in a Ride test (excuse the pdf link):
http://www.ridetriangles.com/pdf/587/213149.pdf



Regards

Graham Wintersgill
On the bonnnie bonnie banks of Loch Lomond

2001 K1200LT

1995 K75RT now deceased
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post #3 of 8 Old Jan 18th, 2008, 9:03 am
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I have a Motoport Air Mesh Kevlar II jacket and their standard Kevlar II pants. They use a waterproof liner system like you are describing. I only use the liners in cooler weather. If it rains and I get wet in warmer weather I don't really care because it dries quickly. I don't really notice any extra weight in the jacket because I don't think the Kevlar absorbs water very much. The material is actually a blend of Kevlar and other synthetics so I am sure there is some water absorbtion issue. I do treat the outer garment with 303 Fabric Guard, primarily UV protection for the Kevlar but it also waterproofs. My pants will only get "wet" in heavy sustained rain. The jacket mesh is so large the water proofing probably helps shed the water but the water get through to the inside pretty efficiently .

To get the excellent venting performance provide by a mesh jacket an inner waterproof liner is about the only alternative. Not having a waterproof pocket is also an issue though Motoport says they can make them but the warm weather performance will suffer do to reduced air flow. The inner liners are certainly inconvenient to take on and off.

Four season riding gear is going to have to make compromises somewhere. If you put zippers and panels all over your waterproof layer to get venting for hot weather then the odds your water proof layer will eventually leak go way up. I suppose a waterproof over layer would be an alternative. It would probably look like crap and flap all over the place at highway speeds or it would need to be bulky.

Layering "systems" seem to be the latest marketing trend. I find that what I usually need is just a waterproof shell or a shell with an inner waterproof liner. These are primarily to control the flow of air and water. If I get cold the heated jacket liner goes on, possible gloves and socks too as the mercury starts to really disappear. I have a collection of never been worn quilted zip out thermal liners from a number of different jackets I have purchased over the years. Once I started thermostatically controlling the temperature I never went back . I have used thermal pant liners in really cold weather but I have never needed to use heated pant liners. My legs are not very temperature sensitive and as long as my core body temperature is happy my legs are usually happy. My feet are a different story .

The alternative to four season gear is more specialized riding gear for different riding conditions. For year around long distance riders the riding conditions are not always predictable and storage space is limited. What's a poor rider to do?


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post #4 of 8 Old Jan 18th, 2008, 11:54 am Thread Starter
 
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MANY THNX FOR THE ABOVE 2 POSTS -- NOW I'M SMARTER THAN WHEN I WOKE UP !!!! Jimbo
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post #5 of 8 Old Jan 18th, 2008, 6:20 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTSOOM
Dummy here -- looking at some BMW jackets like the City, etc. I don't get how wearing a Goretex Liner UNDERNEATH the jacket is their preferred method of waterproofing.

Any owners with experience? Many thnx, BTSOOM
It's their preferred method because it's the cheapest way to do it.

When it starts to rain do you really want to pull over, take off your jacket and put in the waterproof liner? It would be easier and faster to just put on a rainsuit.

Jackets and pants that incorporate a waterproof shell means that when it starts to rain you just keep riding. That's one of the main reasons I switched to textile gear in the first place.

Bruce Hodges
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post #6 of 8 Old Jan 21st, 2008, 8:11 pm
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For years I rode with a Gortex rain suit that I used over leathers and still moved onto textile apparel that has zip in 'Gortex like' liners. I have my fall/winter/spring stuff and a summer mesh type from the same vendor. At first I thought that the liner material would not be all that effective because the outer material was going to get wet but the outer material does not absorb water so it basically uses the liner as drain. The outside material will appear to be dry almost immediately after the rain stops.

Anything that you have to stop to put on means you have to make a decision to do. In many instances, when wearing leathers you need to take a cautious approach because once the leathers become wet it makes for uncomfortable riding. On a trip it could take a considerable amount of miles to get yourself back to normal. Going to the rain suit can also be uncomfortable on a really hot day unless you gave a Gortex rain suit. IMHO in very humid summer thunderstorm weather you need a mesh jacket with a zip in waterproof liner as any rain suit is hot. Years ago when I owned rain suits that were basically plastic suits I generally got wetter under the suit than on top of it. In a cold hard rain there is nothing better than a old fashion plastic rain suit but that is probably only about 5% of any rain riding I do.

The advantage of the zip out 'Gortex' liner is... on really hot days taking it off gives more ventilation through the jacket when you need it most. My Gortex liner doubles as a wind breaker in my mesh jacket on cool evenings.

My riding pants have the Gortex type liner permanently sewed in. It doesn't appear to be such a big problem on very hot days and probably if it was a light color would not matter at all.

Jack D. (Southern Connecticut)
2001 Black LTC
2015 Blue R1200GSA
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post #7 of 8 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 7:40 pm
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BMW has a suit they introduced last summer called the Comfort. It is breathable and waterproof without a separate removable liner. My SO and I both have them. On separate trips to Banff, Alberta and Jackson Hole, WY we rode through many rainstorms and kept completely dry. On one particular day from Challis, ID to Jackson Hole it POURED all day and we both kept totally dry. We pair these suits with Gerbings heated gear and can stay very comfortable down to about 30 degrees. The pants could breathe a little better, but the suit is reasonably comfortable up to around 100 (at which point, nothing is comfortable). We bought them to avoid having to carry separate rain gear, mesh gear, etc. and we haven't regretted the decision. They also have the new type of armor that conforms to your body once your body heat warms it up. As with all things BMW, the are obscenely expensive, but so far appear to be worth it. Anyway, just another thought.

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post #8 of 8 Old Jan 29th, 2008, 8:48 am
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I have a 10 year old Kalahari suit with removable liners for jacket and pants. I love using the liner as another layer in cold weather.

In the summer when it's too hot for any extra lining I ride with the jacket and no liner. In a brief shower I just ride and get wet, and it dries fast as soon as the rain stops. Recently, I added a BMW Venting Machine jacket and it is tops for summer riding. I use a rain over-jacket with it if rain or cold appears.

If I wake up in the morning and it looks like it will be raining I put the liner in if the temperature permits. Then I don't worry all day about stopping to install the liner by the side of the road (not a pleasant experience with trucks whizzing by and rain falling). In 10 years I can recall maybe three times I actually stopped to put in the liners.

Riding in the Alps with Beach Tours I recall waking up to a forecast all day rain storm and cool temps. I zipped in the liners and spent the day wondering why everyone else was complaining about the weather except me and the few who had on Aerostich one piece suits. I do recall the jacket seeming to weigh a lot more with the water in the outer material and it was of course soaked at the end of a continuously raining day, but dried out overnight for next day use.

In all I find the inner liner-jacket combo very satisfying, and build quality speaks for itself (10 years of heavy use an dstill going with only on zipper pull and some sleeve netting sewing from stuck zipper design issue).

Laurence Hendrick

2008 K1200GT, Dark Graphite (Oh my, so fast!)
2005 LT Ocean Blue (Sold and comfort will be missed, but not the weight)
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