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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Aug 4th, 2019 8:25 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chieflonghair View Post
That sounds like a excellent idea...only take a few minutes...and hopefully you sleep better after...
I was about to say the same thing!!
Aug 4th, 2019 8:03 am
Chieflonghair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hfjeff View Post
This whole cam lobe discussion has me losing sleep. I only have 6,500 on the clock and factory warranty is out, but I have about 18 more months of extended. I know it is early but I am half tempted to pull a valve cover to see how things are going.
That sounds like a excellent idea...only take a few minutes...and hopefully you sleep better after...
Aug 4th, 2019 6:20 am
wichitagreg
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by *J*G* View Post
This thread is scaring me.
Where do I go to buy a warranty on a 16 RT with 12k miles?
My dealer carries "RPM One" extended service plans.
Aug 3rd, 2019 10:10 pm
Hfjeff
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

This whole cam lobe discussion has me losing sleep. I only have 6,500 on the clock and factory warranty is out, but I have about 18 more months of extended. I know it is early but I am half tempted to pull a valve cover to see how things are going.
Aug 2nd, 2019 12:55 pm
NoelCP
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by beech View Post
Valve clearance okay but was the cam timing checked via the proper gauge and chain tensioner? Your symptoms are consistent with cam timing being off a little.
I have found the dealers change all 4 cam shafts to remedy the worn lobe issue.
Yes it was checked properly on the last valve check w/ the chain tensioned w/ the tool.

I thought it probably was bum fuel and sure enough after another tank and 3 applications of HEET it's back to instant starts again. I had this happen a while back and it did take a good 3 tanks to clear it all out.
Aug 2nd, 2019 12:47 pm
realshelby
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Or the battery not quite as good as it once was....

I learned that the hard way.
Aug 2nd, 2019 11:48 am
beech
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelCP View Post
Seems like these have been in 2017 and beyond models. My '16 has almost 40K and very recently began starting a little less briskly than it did for the last 40K miles which I thought might be contaminated fuel as addition of methyl alcohol did improve the picture but it's still not quite back to its normal self yet after 2 additional tanks full. Last valve check was about 5K miles ago and all were well within spec.
Valve clearance okay but was the cam timing checked via the proper gauge and chain tensioner? Your symptoms are consistent with cam timing being off a little.
I have found the dealers change all 4 cam shafts to remedy the worn lobe issue.
Aug 2nd, 2019 7:31 am
bandytales
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantkapteyn View Post
I have had the stator go and the now the cam lobes are wearing. It may be a small failure rate but my stator went South near Odessa, Ukraine (I live in Las Vegas) and I just noticed the cam lobes. Stator cost was around $1400 and I pulled the engine. I also had to buy a battery in Romania and 2 battery chargers (Euro & US) for around another $500 to get home. And the cams will cost around $2000 if bought new. So farI am batting 100% . Just waiting for something else like a final drive..... THIS IS NOT A QUALITY build.
Hi Grant, What year RT do you have? When your stator died, was it an electrical or mechanical failure. When you had the issue in Romania, what was the cause and solution to the problem?
Aug 1st, 2019 8:13 pm
grantkapteyn
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

I have had the stator go and the now the cam lobes are wearing. It may be a small failure rate but my stator went South near Odessa, Ukraine (I live in Las Vegas) and I just noticed the cam lobes. Stator cost was around $1400 and I pulled the engine. I also had to buy a battery in Romania and 2 battery chargers (Euro & US) for around another $500 to get home. And the cams will cost around $2000 if bought new. So farI am batting 100% . Just waiting for something else like a final drive..... THIS IS NOT A QUALITY build.
Jul 31st, 2019 12:06 am
Ponch
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelCP View Post
I know--the problem is we have no good data about these things. Of course forums bias towards people reporting problems but it's all we have to go on unfortunately. For a brand w/ a mega reputation to uphold one would hope the expensive deeply buried parts would be aircraft-grade or better, and these funky cam lobes just seem beyond the pale seriously.
Try plastic throttle body pulleys that crack.
Jul 31st, 2019 12:02 am
Ponch
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by PadG View Post
If there was a service bulletin, then BMW must have known about the problem!
Yeah, but who do they blame?
Jul 30th, 2019 11:14 pm
DoctorJ
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Took my bike to a different dealer today than the one that did my original service. Was told theyíve had a number of bikeís with the same problem and feel there wonít be a problem with it being covered by the warranty. They said that all the cams will probably be replaced and doubt any further damage was caused by this problem but would check it out. They said good chance it will be ready by the end of this week.

Also said not much hope for warranty coverage on my rim and being so minimal he said shouldnít cause any problems to ride it like it is. Iím ok with that. Told them why I brought the bike to them rather than where I bought it and had my 1st service. He agreed that was probably best. They eased my frustration and Iím looking forward to getting back on the road this weekend.
Jul 29th, 2019 8:41 pm
cbxchris
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

I lost faith in BMW in 2001 when I lost 2 FD's before 12K miles........then was stupid enough to buy another one.
Jul 28th, 2019 9:58 am
Digtlartst
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickp View Post
I would be interested in learning more about extended warranty options. Have a new to me one owner 2017 RT with 10K miles. Still has factory warranty until April 2020.

Full service history since new and I purchased it preowned from the dealer who sold it new. $800 is a small price to pay for piece of mind.

Please share details.
Most plans are available only through a dealer. If your dealer doesn't offer a plan, you can contact Zurich Insurance or Rider's Advantage to find a local dealer before your factory warranty runs out.

These bikes are generally reliable so risk is probably low, but lemons are a fact of life. I've had two factory warranty repairs on my '16, no biggies but around $700 worth. These bikes are mechanically and electrically complex and failure of some components can be absurdly expensive to repair - not like your dad's (or mom's) R60.

Apologies to the OP for leading this cam lobes thread astray, so maybe an insurance thread might be started.
Jul 28th, 2019 8:38 am
Chieflonghair
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by grantkapteyn View Post
2014 RT 79000 miles and I was hearing noisy valves for the last 15000 miles +/-. Always within spec until I noticed the worn cam lobes. Of course your feeler gauges dont measure that gap. At 73000 miles I installed a new stator, after riding 4000 miles and flying 5000 miles to get the bike home. Am I impressed with BMW? That new Goldwing is looking better all the time..
That's disturbing and I would love to know what the prevalence of failure of these items is and what their average life expectancy is: driveshaft w/ u-joints, stator, cam shafts, shocks. I've been thinking I would keep my '16 for 150K miles but with a few reports of these expensive parts failing right around 80K miles or less it's making me think at 70K or so I should just trade it in on something newer.
I agree this is disturbing...my bike a 2014 with just over 99 thousand on her has had both a stator and drive shaft failure...both issues were due to outside source not part failure...the stator was because of a bolt coming out and chewing it up...the drive shaft was due to moisture causing rust to eat up the u-joint...without those issues I see no reason these two parts shouldn't last for unlimited miles...I have yet to need to adjust my valves and the cam lobes still look new....I was in taos new Mexico and met a guy on a wing with over 300 K on it...I am planning on keeping this bike and joining that club someday...the thing I fear is ecu failure or some sort of computer issue and electronic stuff to deal with at some point...would like to do some pre vent maintenance on the handle bar controls...anti corrosion lube and such...but have yet to make a plan for that...the service manual says any attempt to open the multi function wheel will destroy it!!...so I don't know what if anything I should do in that area...any ideas??
Jul 28th, 2019 6:31 am
Nickp I would be interested in learning more about extended warranty options. Have a new to me one owner 2017 RT with 10K miles. Still has factory warranty until April 2020.

Full service history since new and I purchased it preowned from the dealer who sold it new. $800 is a small price to pay for piece of mind.

Please share details.
Jul 27th, 2019 10:25 pm
*J*G* This thread is scaring me.
Where do I go to buy a warranty on a 16 RT with 12k miles?
Jul 27th, 2019 10:12 pm
Digtlartst
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy53 View Post
Congratulations! You have now guaranteed that your ownership experience will be completely trouble-free!

I bought the Mopar Maxcare unlimited mileage lifetime plan when I got my Durango in 2017 cause I've read of a few issues common to that brand. The result? I have over 58k miles with ZERO issues.

Works every time!
Dang, that guarantee didn't work for me -- I had a 2 year Zurich plan for my 06 RT that paid me back $700 more for repairs than I paid in premium. Unfortunately, I should have bought a 3rd year (or dumped the bike when it expired) because the whizzy ABS then failed and a case seal failed and cost me big time.

It also didn't work for my wife -- who had a 5 year plan on her Acura TL that netted $6500 more in many many repairs over what the warranty cost.

Dang.
Jul 27th, 2019 8:57 pm
Pappy53
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Congratulations! You have now guaranteed that your ownership experience will be completely trouble-free!

I bought the Mopar Maxcare unlimited mileage lifetime plan when I got my Durango in 2017 cause I've read of a few issues common to that brand. The result? I have over 58k miles with ZERO issues.

Works every time!
Jul 27th, 2019 7:46 pm
Digtlartst
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

After big big repair costs on my previous RTs, I got paranoid. My 2016 RT warranty was running out this week so I bought a comprehensive service contract -- 4 years for $804, no deductible, cancelable, and transferable. It's worth $16.75/mo to me for peace of mind.
Jul 27th, 2019 4:35 pm
Stooie
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

One would hope BMW views these occurrences of cam lobe wear as an opportunity.

When the first-year wet heads were discovered to have a rear suspension issue BMW acted quickly and decisively. Their program of buy-back/trade in/repair was viewed by most as commendable. This issue affected the safety of the bike and acting forthrightly probably saved many lawsuits, but it also reflected well on the company.

BMW is now in a position to take one of two paths:

- Stonewall, deny, and perhaps have unpublished good-will repairs for only those who make sufficient noise.

- Openly admit that some bikes have an issue and stand by their product. One would hope these occurrences are rare and cost to the company would be relatively small.

Whichever path they chose, word will spread quickly. As one of my former work colleagues so eloquently put it, "Mothers tell their daughters it takes a lifetime to get a good reputation and fifteen minutes in the back seat of a Chevy to get a bad one."

Let's hope for the best.
Jul 27th, 2019 2:33 pm
NoelCP
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pabst View Post
I am quickly losing faith in BMW.
I know--the problem is we have no good data about these things. Of course forums bias towards people reporting problems but it's all we have to go on unfortunately. For a brand w/ a mega reputation to uphold one would hope the expensive deeply buried parts would be aircraft-grade or better, and these funky cam lobes just seem beyond the pale seriously.
Jul 27th, 2019 2:12 pm
Pabst
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

I am quickly losing faith in BMW.
Jul 27th, 2019 10:56 am
NoelCP
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantkapteyn View Post
2014 RT 79000 miles and I was hearing noisy valves for the last 15000 miles +/-. Always within spec until I noticed the worn cam lobes. Of course your feeler gauges dont measure that gap. At 73000 miles I installed a new stator, after riding 4000 miles and flying 5000 miles to get the bike home. Am I impressed with BMW? That new Goldwing is looking better all the time..
That's disturbing and I would love to know what the prevalence of failure of these items is and what their average life expectancy is: driveshaft w/ u-joints, stator, cam shafts, shocks. I've been thinking I would keep my '16 for 150K miles but with a few reports of these expensive parts failing right around 80K miles or less it's making me think at 70K or so I should just trade it in on something newer.
Jul 26th, 2019 7:36 pm
Pappy53
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantkapteyn View Post
2014 RT 79000 miles and I was hearing noisy valves for the last 15000 miles +/-. Always within spec until I noticed the worn cam lobes. Of course your feeler gauges dont measure that gap. At 73000 miles I installed a new stator, after riding 4000 miles and flying 5000 miles to get the bike home. Am I impressed with BMW? That new Goldwing is looking better all the time..
Stator AND the cams?!? Yeah. I don't blame you one bit.
Jul 26th, 2019 6:59 pm
grantkapteyn
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

2014 RT 79000 miles and I was hearing noisy valves for the last 15000 miles +/-. Always within spec until I noticed the worn cam lobes. Of course your feeler gauges dont measure that gap. At 73000 miles I installed a new stator, after riding 4000 miles and flying 5000 miles to get the bike home. Am I impressed with BMW? That new Goldwing is looking better all the time..
Jul 26th, 2019 5:48 pm
NoelCP
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Seems like these have been in 2017 and beyond models. My '16 has almost 40K and very recently began starting a little less briskly than it did for the last 40K miles which I thought might be contaminated fuel as addition of methyl alcohol did improve the picture but it's still not quite back to its normal self yet after 2 additional tanks full. Last valve check was about 5K miles ago and all were well within spec.
Jul 26th, 2019 5:12 pm
Pappy53
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

That sure sucks. The image is a little blurry but I noted what looks like a dark ring there on the camshaft. That looks like the kind of rainbow effect you see on some metals that have been exposed to very high temperatures (think exhaust headers for example).
Jul 26th, 2019 3:29 pm
DoctorJ
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

WORN CAM LOBE HERE also!

My name is Jeff and Iím new to this forum. My bike is a 2018 R 1200 RS and has 12,200 miles on it. I love the bike but have just run into some issues. Had a new front tire put on the bike 3 days ago and the person changing the tire pointed out a flat spot on one side of my rim. Iíve never hoped any curves, hit any objects or pot holes. Rim has no dings or scratches and old tire has no marks on it. Dealer where I bought the bike says this is a common problem and will cost around $350 or more to repair. Iím not accepting that and have started a complaint with corporate today.

This dealer did my 600 mile service and I did the 6,000 mile service. I was suspect of the type of people in their service department as there was 2 drain plug gaskets on when I removed the bolt. I also needed a cheater to break loose the bolt and also to remove the filter.

I had noticed pinging from the engine that started within the last 500-1,000 miles. Today as I went to do my 12,000 mile service I removed the left valve cover and was getting ready to check the valve clearance when I noticed considerable wear on the forward intake valve lobe (picture attached).

I put it back together and have an appointment at a different BMW dealer for the next day they are open. Iím expecting both my issues to get resolved or I will no longer be a BMW motorcycle owner 😕. My last BMW was a 1976 R 100 which had no problems the entire time I owned the bike.
May 19th, 2019 3:58 pm
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

If there was a service bulletin, then BMW must have known about the problem!
May 19th, 2019 12:09 pm
Bubblehead
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

I forgot to mention that this was NOT called a recal, but was called a service bulletin (or something like that).
May 19th, 2019 8:48 am
Bubblehead
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer tiger View Post
First of all, welcome to our forum! So far, this has been an interesting conversation, (some of it over my head). Your post caught my attention by the statement "BMW PAID THE PRICE TO R&R!!!"

What bike do you have? Has yours been dealer serviced exclusively? Who initiated the discussion of the repair? Interested in knowing more details of how this transaction came about?
I have a 2016 R1200RT-LC. It has been serviced exclusively at my local dealer, however I bought it at another dealer
I brought my bike in to replace the front tire and the service manger mentioned the loud tapping from the left side. They opened it up and called to tell me the cam was bad They ordered the parts and contacted BMW to get the OK. Apparently it took a few calls to get BMW to pony up, but they did.
I have an extended warranty, but it was not used.
Good luck if you have this problem
Karl
May 18th, 2019 3:42 pm
LAF
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer tiger View Post
First of all, welcome to our forum! So far, this has been an interesting conversation, (some of it over my head). Your post caught my attention by the statement "BMW PAID THE PRICE TO R&R!!!"

What bike do you have? Has yours been dealer serviced exclusively? Who initiated the discussion of the repair? Interested in knowing more details of how this transaction came about?
+1 to all the above.
May 18th, 2019 10:10 am
Beemer tiger
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubblehead View Post
Cams replaced at 45424 miles when dealer decided they were too noisy. Never out of spec at each 12K service. BMW paid the price to R&R. I see no difference in the way the bike runs.
First of all, welcome to our forum! So far, this has been an interesting conversation, (some of it over my head). Your post caught my attention by the statement "BMW PAID THE PRICE TO R&R!!!"

What bike do you have? Has yours been dealer serviced exclusively? Who initiated the discussion of the repair? Interested in knowing more details of how this transaction came about?
May 18th, 2019 8:32 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF View Post
Yes I forget how little I know and understand on metallurgy. See I was thinking they would grind the cam and then harden it. I would never think to harden then grind, as to my though process it would make the process harder to grind once hardened.

I guess my question is why not use a strong enough steel to not need to harden the cam lobes in the first place?

I guess that would be a pretty big diameter rod of steel when you consider the dia. of a cam shaft. But with the cutting technology of today and loosing one process in the production I would think it would be about a wash.

Hell I dont know, it just is a shame there is always some defect that gets swept under the rug and consumers pay the price.

I mean unless the guy ran his motor dry a cam should be replaced no matter when it goes south. I do not see a cam as a wear item. I mean we al know we are talking valves and seats wearing tight on our 12K valve checks, it is not supposed to be cam lobes.

Well except for these new "Casper Cams."
You should know that when the steel gets hardened, there are two things that will happen. First, more true for this case, the localized heating and shock cooling of just a section of the part can produce distortion of the part. That is corrected in grinding the cam to the specific shape and tolerances after heat treating. You will find this to be true for any parts that requires hardening. Secondly, the hardening process, regardless of types, will generally make the part larger than what it was before hardening. I won't bore you with the whys, but if you want to know, just ask. This is also corrected by machining after hardening. These 2 statements are generalization, because nowadays, there are so many excellent tool steels available with all sorts of properties, and you will find at least one one that will be the exception to what I said above. The one that comes to mind right away is a tool steel that I had often used, in my previous life , which is A2 tool steel. It is one of the "air-quenching" steel, and needs to go through a relatively complex treatment in an oven, after which it is left to cool down in air. This stuff will maintain it's dimension exactly after the heat treatment, and so no additional machining is required after hardening.


Grinding - grinding is very much more effective with harder materials than with soft! Soft material, like mild steel as an example, will easily clog up a grinding wheel!


Strong steel - hardening will increase the strength of metal, but when you are talking about steel, you will find that most of the time, the main reason for hardening is not for increased in strength, but to provide wear resistance! However, there is one material property that most lay-person do not think of, besides strength, and that is toughness! A steel that is through-hardened, like the A2 that I mentioned above will attain that wear resistance hardness after processing, gain strength, but have significant loss in toughness. What it mean is that, after heat treating, the part may shatter when subjected to a large impact, whereas the same part before hardening will merely deflect or bend instead of shattering. We can have both hard surface and good toughness by processes that just harden the outer surface of the steel, while leaving the inner "core" soft (relatively speaking, of course) and ductile. That is why components that might be subjected to impact loads are heat-treated this way. Camshaft; crankshaft; balls, rollers, and the bearing races are just some of the examples. On top of that, the process is quite inexpensive as compared to the process for through hardening.


OK, that should be enough to bore you guys to tear!!! Just ask, if you want more information.
May 18th, 2019 8:12 am
Bubblehead
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Cams replaced at 45424 miles when dealer decided they were too noisy. Never out of spec at each 12K service. BMW paid the price to R&R. I see no difference in the way the bike runs.
May 17th, 2019 6:54 pm
LAF
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch View Post
It's like when the pulleys on my throttle bodies broke. I was told I was an outlier and no one had that problem. Now we're seeing it a whole lot more. BMW uses a lot of plastic in their car engines too that have problems. I have to wonder who the heck makes these decisions to use materials/methods/vendors where stuff ain't up to snuff. Maybe it's built in obsolescence, maybe it's it's malignant frugality to save a penny. IDK, but we end up paying.
We are going to the National this year. Patricia on her Kawasaki "Mean Green" Vulcan 650 S, her father(who is 85) on his 15 RT, and me on my 17.5 GS.

So I am prepping Patricia's bike and the thing I notice is just about everything is metal. I mean it is pretty glaring difference.

I just had the GS naked and I swear I used more SP 303 and very little wax/quick shine. I mean I spay everything plastic with SP 303 in hopes of keeping UV and heat from breaking all the plastic down. The intake tubes were dry as heck. Very little metal on these bikes.

I am probably pissing money in the wind but I do it. I have used this for many years and never had a bad reaction from it on any dash, tires, or plastic I have used it on.

https://www.303products.com.au/
May 17th, 2019 6:37 pm
LAF
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by PadG View Post
It is clear to me that whoever is making the camshaft have a poor process control, and the hardening process can vary to yield the result that you have seen. BTW, don't think of that hard case as being uniform. It probably isn't, and when the production grinding processes is completed, you could have just a very thin case left, or even have parches of soft material exposed. When it's done properly, you should have a thin hard case all around to prevent wears.
Yes I forget how little I know and understand on metallurgy. See I was thinking they would grind the cam and then harden it. I would never think to harden then grind, as to my though process it would make the process harder to grind once hardened.

I guess my question is why not use a strong enough steel to not need to harden the cam lobes in the first place?

I guess that would be a pretty big diameter rod of steel when you consider the dia. of a cam shaft. But with the cutting technology of today and loosing one process in the production I would think it would be about a wash.

Hell I dont know, it just is a shame there is always some defect that gets swept under the rug and consumers pay the price.

I mean unless the guy ran his motor dry a cam should be replaced no matter when it goes south. I do not see a cam as a wear item. I mean we al know we are talking valves and seats wearing tight on our 12K valve checks, it is not supposed to be cam lobes.

Well except for these new "Casper Cams."
May 17th, 2019 9:02 am
Ponch
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF View Post
"So, with this defect, you will find taht the cam lobes will wear very quickly right away, as reported. It's my opinion that if you had checked the condition of your cam lobes at the 12k miles servicing, when you do the valve clearance check, you are probably quite safe. Just my guess!"

I had thought that also. Except we have a guy with 51K here. And the one I showed was after a 24K service. So the heat treatment is unpredictable at to where the cams took the heat treating and where it does not. I have seen and I think one picture shows only on cam lobe of the two was affected. It is really a shame that there may be a time bomb ticking in these bikes.

Again not a lot of these showing up but enough. And again not everyone is on "The Net". So there could be many more of these worldwide we will never know about. As a "informed" group we (I) forget there are probably a lot more issues that people have but are never recorded on a Forum.
It's like when the pulleys on my throttle bodies broke. I was told I was an outlier and no one had that problem. Now we're seeing it a whole lot more. BMW uses a lot of plastic in their car engines too that have problems. I have to wonder who the heck makes these decisions to use materials/methods/vendors where stuff ain't up to snuff. Maybe it's built in obsolescence, maybe it's it's malignant frugality to save a penny. IDK, but we end up paying.
May 17th, 2019 8:46 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF View Post
"So, with this defect, you will find taht the cam lobes will wear very quickly right away, as reported. It's my opinion that if you had checked the condition of your cam lobes at the 12k miles servicing, when you do the valve clearance check, you are probably quite safe. Just my guess!"

I had thought that also. Except we have a guy with 51K here. And the one I showed was after a 24K service. So the heat treatment is unpredictable at to where the cams took the heat treating and where it does not. I have seen and I think one picture shows only on cam lobe of the two was affected. It is really a shame that there may be a time bomb ticking in these bikes.

Again not a lot of these showing up but enough. And again not everyone is on "The Net". So there could be many more of these worldwide we will never know about. As a "informed" group we (I) forget there are probably a lot more issues that people have but are never recorded on a Forum.
It is clear to me that whoever is making the camshaft have a poor process control, and the hardening process can vary to yield the result that you have seen. BTW, don't think of that hard case as being uniform. It probably isn't, and when the production grinding processes is completed, you could have just a very thin case left, or even have parches of soft material exposed. When it's done properly, you should have a thin hard case all around to prevent wears.
May 17th, 2019 8:40 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch View Post
They have to go through the oil pump first and that's got to be bad for the pump over time.
I haven't taken an RT apart, Ponch, but generally the oil pump is usually a positive displacement gear type pump. That sucker will chew up almost anything!
May 17th, 2019 8:34 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtwiz View Post
OK, here's the thing. If the cam lobes flake, the flakes run down with oil into the bottom of the engine. If they're not filtered by the pickup screen in the oil inlet and they're not stuck to the magnet in the oil filler plug, then they still have to travel through the oil filter before they can muck up any oil passages. So...I think the possibility of flakes plugging up an oil passage and running a bearing dry are pretty remote.

Second thing, to find out if the wear problem is the cam not being hardened or the cam just not getting any oil, you just need to do a hardness test of the cam lobe. If the oil ran out, the surface should be pretty hard due to excessive heat. It should also look blue, at least in places. This really does look like the hardening process failed.

I have seen flaking cam lobes on Ducati 718's from the 90's. They were pitted and had visible flaking. I think it was from wrong metal chemistry or maybe too much hardening? It was pretty ugly!

I would bet both of the cams in the photos above are just plain not heat treated. A simple Rockwell hardness test would confirm that. The fact that there appears to be no scoring or other signs of a no oil condition tell me that. BMW should pay for repair of that....and should verify that the replacement cam(s) is/are of the correct hardness before putting them in the bike.
Thank you for the post! Perfect example of guesses and assumptions that I had mentioned in earlier post!


You are probably right that the chance of the oil passage getting even partially clogged up is fairly low, but it is possible. Based on the photo that Lee had posted, you can see that there is a good amount of metal missing, just after 800 miles. NOT all of that will be in flake form, and lots of it will pass into the oil filter. Now, give some thought to the filter! What happen when the filter gets clogged up and internal pressure builds to a specific point? Why, the bypass pop, and the oil is circulated without being filtered!


and running a bearing dry - seem that you don't know how journal bearing works! When in operation, there are NO metal-to-metal contact in a journal bearing! The pin (part of the crank) is floating on pressurized oil film, and kept separated from the very soft bearing materials. There is a continuous flow of oil through the length of the bearing, because both ends are wide open. If the oil flow stops or slow down, the pressure will drop, bearing components will make contact, and you can kiss the bearing good bye in a minute or so, depending on how fast the engine was running at the time! Think about it. If you step inside the cockpit of a race car or high performance street car, you will see that one of the gauge that will be in that cockpit is the oil pressure gauge. Why is that?


you just need to do a hardness test of the cam lobe. A simple Rockwell hardness test would confirm that. - you don't seem to know anything about hardness testing and assumed that it can be done on the hardness of a hardened case (or shell, to a lay person). It cannot. Neither the Rockwell tester nor other types can give the hardness of a thin shell. Just the nature of the beast!! The best that you can do was, as suggested, to run a file over the surface to see if it's hard or not.


too much hardening - another assumption that too much hardening will cause the material to be "harder"! Not so. Forged steel, when flame-hardened will either gets hard or will not. The material must reach or exceed certain temperature and then quickly shock-cooled before it will get hard, otherwise it will remain unchanged! Go and Google flame hardening. I don't know what you will find, but I am sure that you will learn something! BTW, the flakes are most likely the hardened "case" of the material. I had explained in my earlier post as to what happen in the hardening process.
May 17th, 2019 7:00 am
LAF
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

"So, with this defect, you will find taht the cam lobes will wear very quickly right away, as reported. It's my opinion that if you had checked the condition of your cam lobes at the 12k miles servicing, when you do the valve clearance check, you are probably quite safe. Just my guess!"

I had thought that also. Except we have a guy with 51K here. And the one I showed was after a 24K service. So the heat treatment is unpredictable at to where the cams took the heat treating and where it does not. I have seen and I think one picture shows only on cam lobe of the two was affected. It is really a shame that there may be a time bomb ticking in these bikes.

Again not a lot of these showing up but enough. And again not everyone is on "The Net". So there could be many more of these worldwide we will never know about. As a "informed" group we (I) forget there are probably a lot more issues that people have but are never recorded on a Forum.
May 17th, 2019 12:09 am
Ponch
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtwiz View Post
OK, here's the thing. If the cam lobes flake, the flakes run down with oil into the bottom of the engine. If they're not filtered by the pickup screen in the oil inlet and they're not stuck to the magnet in the oil filler plug, then they still have to travel through the oil filter before they can muck up any oil passages. So...I think the possibility of flakes plugging up an oil passage and running a bearing dry are pretty remote.

Second thing, to find out if the wear problem is the cam not being hardened or the cam just not getting any oil, you just need to do a hardness test of the cam lobe. If the oil ran out, the surface should be pretty hard due to excessive heat. It should also look blue, at least in places. This really does look like the hardening process failed.

I have seen flaking cam lobes on Ducati 718's from the 90's. They were pitted and had visible flaking. I think it was from wrong metal chemistry or maybe too much hardening? It was pretty ugly!

I would bet both of the cams in the photos above are just plain not heat treated. A simple Rockwell hardness test would confirm that. The fact that there appears to be no scoring or other signs of a no oil condition tell me that. BMW should pay for repair of that....and should verify that the replacement cam(s) is/are of the correct hardness before putting them in the bike.
They have to go through the oil pump first and that's got to be bad for the pump over time.
May 16th, 2019 8:55 pm
niel_petersen
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

A quick hardness test is to see if the existing cam is file hard. You should not be able to get a metal file to bite material off the face of any cam.
May 16th, 2019 6:51 pm
rtwiz
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by PadG View Post
You will have real issue if those flakes blocks the drilled oil ways through the crankshaft to feed the main (journal) bearings!
OK, here's the thing. If the cam lobes flake, the flakes run down with oil into the bottom of the engine. If they're not filtered by the pickup screen in the oil inlet and they're not stuck to the magnet in the oil filler plug, then they still have to travel through the oil filter before they can muck up any oil passages. So...I think the possibility of flakes plugging up an oil passage and running a bearing dry are pretty remote.

Second thing, to find out if the wear problem is the cam not being hardened or the cam just not getting any oil, you just need to do a hardness test of the cam lobe. If the oil ran out, the surface should be pretty hard due to excessive heat. It should also look blue, at least in places. This really does look like the hardening process failed.

I have seen flaking cam lobes on Ducati 718's from the 90's. They were pitted and had visible flaking. I think it was from wrong metal chemistry or maybe too much hardening? It was pretty ugly!

I would bet both of the cams in the photos above are just plain not heat treated. A simple Rockwell hardness test would confirm that. The fact that there appears to be no scoring or other signs of a no oil condition tell me that. BMW should pay for repair of that....and should verify that the replacement cam(s) is/are of the correct hardness before putting them in the bike.
May 14th, 2019 9:17 am
Ponch
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF View Post
As far as how often this is happening who knows? As with FD, and ABS blocks, and blown seals leading to blown clutches, HES sensors, out of time cams, bad switch gear, fuel strips, and all the other loving quirks of the brand. It really is not a big deal, until it happens to you
And some of these are more than isolated instances. What's more frustrating is the response from BMW with some of them, meaning, what problem? Now we're starting to see more and more throttle pulleys self destructing on hex heads. I was an early adopter. "First we've heard of it" until I went to the NHTSA.
May 14th, 2019 8:52 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark View Post
All points well taken, thanks. Have a picture of the cam stil on engine. Smoothly and evenly worn. All others look and gap fine.

Anyone know how to upload pics?
Very easy, but perhaps you don't have sufficient posting to UL?


In any case, when you start a reply, just scroll to the bottom of the window and you will see where you can attach files. Actually, you can drag-and-drop in the specified area just below the text pane!
May 14th, 2019 8:48 am
PadG
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

You will have real issue if those flakes blocks the drilled oil ways through the crankshaft to feed the main (journal) bearings!
May 14th, 2019 6:27 am
LAF
Re: WORNOUT CAM LOBE

On the second picture and instance I posted Jim said the guy said he did not really notice a loss of power.

I would think you would notice it but not all people drive the same.

As far as your oil filter it is there to take out impurities for sure. From what I saw this is not turning into a graphite paste but rather flakes which appear to break down but where and how would be a mystery. A flake on a cylinder wall or hung up on a ring on a piston could be a issue.

As far as how often this is happening who knows? As with FD, and ABS blocks, and blown seals leading to blown clutches, HES sensors, out of time cams, bad switch gear, fuel strips, and all the other loving quirks of the brand. It really is not a big deal, until it happens to you
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