BMW Luxury Touring Community - Reply to Topic
Thread: Indications of impending FD failure Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
Sep 5th, 2018 9:55 pm
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
I grok, I'm going to order the Spiegler kit as soon as I get it. I did learn something else of potential substance, though...while they were looking over the throttle cable which they ultimately figured out needed a little lube I guess up by the top portion, Kelly the Service MGR looked up a replacement...apparently they now have some type of retrofit kit that has to go in in some very tedious manner that costs about 400 bucks and takes a couple hours to put together...jeez, getting old usually is not good, lol.

Yes, there is a retrofit kit for the stiff throttle some of the early LT's had an issue with. It requires cutting some part in that assembly to get all the new pieces to install right. Pics below to know if you have the new already on the left or old on the right.
Sep 5th, 2018 9:25 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Rick, if the lines are spongy, I would not take that as a good sign. They deteriorate from the inside out so they can look great but still be crap waiting to fail when you need them most. Just another tip.
I grok, I'm going to order the Spiegler kit as soon as I get it. I did learn something else of potential substance, though...while they were looking over the throttle cable which they ultimately figured out needed a little lube I guess up by the top portion, Kelly the Service MGR looked up a replacement...apparently they now have some type of retrofit kit that has to go in in some very tedious manner that costs about 400 bucks and takes a couple hours to put together...jeez, getting old usually is not good, lol.
Sep 5th, 2018 8:51 pm
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Greetings, shout out for Saddleman who was kind enough to speak with me through PM. The Service MGR at the BMW shop and the mechanic who has worked on my former R and the current RT multiple times in the past four years said the FD oil was almost pure as the driven rain, lol...actually he said it was a little darker than karo syrup and there were no leavings at all and just some very tiny amounts of fuzz. I am leaning toward trying to get it and do some maintenance on the other fluids as well as probably the rubber brake lines although those did not look weather-cracked and felt pretty springy. Spiegler kit for me I think. Thank you for all the great opinions. I will let you know in the next couple of days how it goes. Saddleman gave me a tip that after riding it on the Interstate for a while I should touch the FD and if my hand can stay on it without discomfort (my word) it is probably shimmed pretty good. I realize there are no guarantees with these FDs but grateful for the tip anyway .
Rick, if the lines are spongy, I would not take that as a good sign. They deteriorate from the inside out so they can look great but still be crap waiting to fail when you need them most. Just another tip.
Sep 5th, 2018 8:39 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Greetings, shout out for Saddleman who was kind enough to speak with me through PM. The Service MGR at the BMW shop and the mechanic who has worked on my former R and the current RT multiple times in the past four years said the FD oil was almost pure as the driven rain, lol...actually he said it was a little darker than karo syrup and there were no leavings at all and just some very tiny amounts of fuzz. I am leaning toward trying to get it and do some maintenance on the other fluids as well as probably the rubber brake lines although those did not look weather-cracked and felt pretty springy. Spiegler kit for me I think. Thank you for all the great opinions. I will let you know in the next couple of days how it goes. Saddleman gave me a tip that after riding it on the Interstate for a while I should touch the FD and if my hand can stay on it without discomfort (my word) it is probably shimmed pretty good. I realize there are no guarantees with these FDs but grateful for the tip anyway .
Sep 4th, 2018 8:54 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman View Post
I can't PM you until you have 15 post so keep posting.
I think I am past it now, thanks in advance for your time, Saddleman. I will see if PM is now working
Sep 4th, 2018 8:36 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman View Post
I can't PM you until you have 15 post so keep posting.
Thanks! Was about to do that last night then life intruded.
Sep 4th, 2018 7:38 pm
saddleman
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Apparently I am so new I cannot send PMs, lol. If someone would be kind enough to ask Saddleman to PM me I would like to get an estimate on sending him a functioning (to my knowledge) FD off a 2003 K and getting it refurbed correctly, thank you.
I can't PM you until you have 15 post so keep posting.
Sep 4th, 2018 6:46 pm
jzeiler
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

You are up to six now!
Sep 3rd, 2018 10:34 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

LOL, well I wasn't going to nerd out like that but since you suggested it... Ricky Chuck goin nationwide
Sep 3rd, 2018 9:08 pm
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Apparently I am so new I cannot send PMs, lol. If someone would be kind enough to ask Saddleman to PM me I would like to get an estimate on sending him a functioning (to my knowledge) FD off a 2003 K and getting it refurbed correctly, thank you.
you need like 15 posts to send PM/s so run them up on a greeting thread, make sure you say hi back to everyone. It adds up quickly
Sep 3rd, 2018 7:40 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Apparently I am so new I cannot send PMs, lol. If someone would be kind enough to ask Saddleman to PM me I would like to get an estimate on sending him a functioning (to my knowledge) FD off a 2003 K and getting it refurbed correctly, thank you.
Sep 3rd, 2018 6:40 pm
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
There is a like button


I have a medium Built helmet with an SMH10 mounted. It would not close with the intercom out and right side up but flipped, it did close but it was tight. Ignore the scratches, most were there when I bought it.

Doing a four corners on an unknown LT is inviting trouble on a 16 year old. Depending on what service has been done to this point, there is a list of things that would greatly increase the chances of success. The MAJOR things that could stop you in your tracks are the FD, a failure of the O-ring in the clutch housing or main seal contaminating the clutch with oil, Failure of the internal tank rubber fuel lines, OEM brake line failure. Any of those that have been addressed recently are a plus like Spiegler SS braided brake lines or having replaced the internal fuel lines in the last few years.

If the FD has had the crown bearing replaced, it is a plus even if it was just done with the same shims it came with as you could expect similar duration before another failure.

Replacing the OEM brake lines are a must as they deteriorate from the inside and 10, maybe 12 years is their expected life so anything beyond that is potentially pushing your luck. Mine lasted 13 years before bursting. ALso, if it has wuick disconnect fuel connectors, the OEM plastic ones have a very bad habit of cracking and spraying fuel so those need to be replaced with metal ones if not done already.

It is a dry clutch and can generate a lot of heat if engaged at higher RPM like a wet clutch can handle so depending on use and environment, the heat in the bellhousing and clutch housing over time causes the O-ring seal to harden and crack allowing oil into the clutch. No way to evaluate that without taking it apart and just replacing it preferably with a Viton one better suited for the higher heat. ANY oil around the bellhousing is bad. Work on keeping the RPM low and feather out the clutch till fully engaged, then roll on the throttle. 1st gear is high so it takes some effort to get her rolling.

I would not expect you to just do the clutch as I did before it had any issue. It may run many more miles and never have that particular problem. It mostly would depend on how it was used. It is just being aware of the possible things on that big a ride that could put a sizeable dent in your wallet far from home.

Carrying a few things with you like a spare crown bearing and FD seal and a set of replacement fuel lines can provide some comfort and they don't take up too much room if you didn't install them before the ride.

As with any bike, at this age, there are things that can go wrong. There just happen to be some biger ticket items in that list of possibilities. It is a love hate relationship and they do need proper care and feeding.
Hey, thanks for responding. I have done a lot of reading the past few days and the first three stoppers you mentioned concern me, the other stuff I would plan to upgrade over the next month if I get it. I haven't yet watched Kirk at Illinois BMW replace the o-ring so unsure if it is a major engine dismantle but will find out. I figure a main seal is a biggie, too. This doesn't exactly throw cold water on me, lol, but now I am suddenly thinking in fond terms of my 1150RT, which has been very kind to me .

I suppose the best thing is to ask Saddleman what a pre-emptive rebuild would put me out and budget for that in the next few months because this four corners is going to be a kind of bucket list trip. Appreciate the information, lots to think about as I start looking it over more closely tomorrow. I wonder if there are any FD gurus in the mid-southwest, Texas, Missouri, etc? Nothing against sending it off, just trying to get my bearings on logistics. I have been a VW TDI enthusiast since 2000 and all my energy has been on modding those motors...my last several bikes have been bulletproof, even the last two BMWs, 1150R and this one have been almost immaculate. Thanks again.

Update: I am suddenly very tired watching how to replace the main seal and clutch o-ring, lol.
Sep 3rd, 2018 4:52 pm
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Haha I looked for a Like button, lol...I need help.

One last question for the road...will a helmet fit in the side cases? I plan on pulling the cd changer if I get it but the bike looks darned nice with the trunk off. I also plan on doing a four corners with my wing man in the spring, I am hoping a lightly packed duffle strapped there would change the cg a bit. Shutting up now!
There is a like button


I have a medium Built helmet with an SMH10 mounted. It would not close with the intercom out and right side up but flipped, it did close but it was tight. Ignore the scratches, most were there when I bought it.

Doing a four corners on an unknown LT is inviting trouble on a 16 year old. Depending on what service has been done to this point, there is a list of things that would greatly increase the chances of success. The MAJOR things that could stop you in your tracks are the FD, a failure of the O-ring in the clutch housing or main seal contaminating the clutch with oil, Failure of the internal tank rubber fuel lines, OEM brake line failure. Any of those that have been addressed recently are a plus like Spiegler SS braided brake lines or having replaced the internal fuel lines in the last few years.

If the FD has had the crown bearing replaced, it is a plus even if it was just done with the same shims it came with as you could expect similar duration before another failure.

Replacing the OEM brake lines are a must as they deteriorate from the inside and 10, maybe 12 years is their expected life so anything beyond that is potentially pushing your luck. Mine lasted 13 years before bursting. ALso, if it has wuick disconnect fuel connectors, the OEM plastic ones have a very bad habit of cracking and spraying fuel so those need to be replaced with metal ones if not done already.

It is a dry clutch and can generate a lot of heat if engaged at higher RPM like a wet clutch can handle so depending on use and environment, the heat in the bellhousing and clutch housing over time causes the O-ring seal to harden and crack allowing oil into the clutch. No way to evaluate that without taking it apart and just replacing it preferably with a Viton one better suited for the higher heat. ANY oil around the bellhousing is bad. Work on keeping the RPM low and feather out the clutch till fully engaged, then roll on the throttle. 1st gear is high so it takes some effort to get her rolling.

I would not expect you to just do the clutch as I did before it had any issue. It may run many more miles and never have that particular problem. It mostly would depend on how it was used. It is just being aware of the possible things on that big a ride that could put a sizeable dent in your wallet far from home.

Carrying a few things with you like a spare crown bearing and FD seal and a set of replacement fuel lines can provide some comfort and they don't take up too much room if you didn't install them before the ride.

As with any bike, at this age, there are things that can go wrong. There just happen to be some biger ticket items in that list of possibilities. It is a love hate relationship and they do need proper care and feeding.
Sep 3rd, 2018 9:58 am
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
You can have plenty of fun on an LT, just not below 5mph They handle amazingly well at speed and ride much lighter than they are. Being heavy isn't the worst of it, it is that the CG is higher than on most bikes so you have to follow a few simple rules like, never try and come to a stop in a turn or with the bars any place other than straight forward and keep your head up looking forward, not down. There is a much smaller angle of recovery in a lean when stopped with that high CG so try not to let it lean over unless you are headed to the side stand intentionally. The servo assist brakes on the 02 can get a little grabby at slow speeds leading to drops if you are not following the rules. Unless you are a long legged behemoth, if it starts to go past the point of no return, just step out and get out of the way and worry about picking it up after. Being able to flat foot her at a stop is a big help in keeping her between tipping points. Most owners have dropped their LT at least once. There is no shame in that We will be looking for those pictures. Help is always available on this forum so don't be afraid to ask.
Haha I looked for a Like button, lol...I need help.

One last question for the road...will a helmet fit in the side cases? I plan on pulling the cd changer if I get it but the bike looks darned nice with the trunk off. I also plan on doing a four corners with my wing man in the spring, I am hoping a lightly packed duffle strapped there would change the cg a bit. Shutting up now!
Sep 3rd, 2018 9:49 am
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Morning! Thank you for the friendly and quick response. It is a 2003 and I have been on a trip already with my buddy and the KT but just admired it from afar so to speak. It is in the shop for a broken valve stem so in the morning I will go in and give it a better look and then ride it. I am not decrepit but it will definitely be the heaviest bike I've thought of owning since an 86 Suzuki Cavalcade back in those days which was a great touring bike for my wife, lots of gadgets, but I doubt it was as heavy as this would be. Your thoughts echo what I was generally thinking. I may ask them to replace the FD fluid just to get a look at the fluid or maybe just offer to do it for my friend once it gets back to his house. Thanks again and if I post any pics of me doing leg presses in the gym you will know I did the deed .

I do like tossing the RT around mountain roads in New Mexico so will have to judge if I can still retain a significant percentage of that fun after I ride it. I have been fortunate enough to never run out of road since I was old enough to ride in 1973 so I will probably need to put a big yellow Post-it on the dash that says "mass likes to go straight! No sight-seeing!"
You can have plenty of fun on an LT, just not below 5mph They handle amazingly well at speed and ride much lighter than they are. Being heavy isn't the worst of it, it is that the CG is higher than on most bikes so you have to follow a few simple rules like, never try and come to a stop in a turn or with the bars any place other than straight forward and keep your head up looking forward, not down. There is a much smaller angle of recovery in a lean when stopped with that high CG so try not to let it lean over unless you are headed to the side stand intentionally. The servo assist brakes on the 02 can get a little grabby at slow speeds leading to drops if you are not following the rules. Unless you are a long legged behemoth, if it starts to go past the point of no return, just step out and get out of the way and worry about picking it up after. Being able to flat foot her at a stop is a big help in keeping her between tipping points. Most owners have dropped their LT at least once. There is no shame in that We will be looking for those pictures. Help is always available on this forum so don't be afraid to ask.
Sep 3rd, 2018 9:33 am
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Morning! Thank you for the friendly and quick response. It is a 2003 and I have been on a trip already with my buddy and the KT but just admired it from afar so to speak. It is in the shop for a broken valve stem so in the morning I will go in and give it a better look and then ride it. I am not decrepit but it will definitely be the heaviest bike I've thought of owning since an 86 Suzuki Cavalcade back in those days which was a great touring bike for my wife, lots of gadgets, but I doubt it was as heavy as this would be. Your thoughts echo what I was generally thinking. I may ask them to replace the FD fluid just to get a look at the fluid or maybe just offer to do it for my friend once it gets back to his house. Thanks again and if I post any pics of me doing leg presses in the gym you will know I did the deed .

I do like tossing the RT around mountain roads in New Mexico so will have to judge if I can still retain a significant percentage of that fun after I ride it. I have been fortunate enough to never run out of road since I was old enough to ride in 1973 so I will probably need to put a big yellow Post-it on the dash that says "mass likes to go straight! No sight-seeing!"
Sep 3rd, 2018 7:57 am
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Greetings, I joined recently (well I mean showed back up recently) and began reading up on these bikes because a good friend has a 2003 with 20k. He picked it up very inexpensively because apparently the abs reservoir was low enough to cause some code(s) but he bought it on a chance and after that was found it has been a great bike for him the past few months. I currently have a 2005 1150RT with almost 29k and it has been a peach, no FD issues or any other issues the past three years...other than it was the last model made before the 1200 and it has no cruise, lol. (holds up a crippled hand) . I hope to find out Tuesday if he has any maint records from the former owner, too.

This K1200 seems to want me to buy it, lol, because it must know I overpack and CANNOT get my Neotec with a Sena 10c to go in the rear top case...maddening. In any case I am interested in the LT but I said all that to say I just finished reading this thread and holy moly lots of knowledge here, I bow to mighty men . The BMW shop here in Oklahoma City has been a good one the past couple of years, lots of care has gone into customer support and the mechanics have a good record among we riders for first-time fixes, etc. Service MGR has gone to extensive BMW schools in Germany and other places and sounds very knowledgeable...I know, a dealership...but...and my long-winded question finally...if I ask them to check out the FD and request they drain and examine the oil as it has been examined by all of you, for fuzz, flakes and possibly wobbling, will this be sufficient or do they as a rule have even more comprehensive tests they do to check for impending or actual FD damage? I expect and hope they will give as honest an answer as they can.

I love my RT even though my brain still wants to do single-track (wayyy pre RT) and go on multiple 600 mile day trips but it sounds like the LT will contribute to my comfort big time ...will I be making a lateral move comparing the two FDs with regard to potential failure? I know the RTs have displayed spline problems but the LT seems to also eat clutches...or maybe it is as someone said, more people complain than extol. If the oil looks good with minimal fuzz and no flakes I will be tempted to get it. Thank you for all your efforts in building this site and I hope it will become a frequent haunt for me.

NOTE: I forgot to ask one more thing...can an FD be re-shimmed correctly at a shop if the mechanic knows about this whole issue with incorrect pre-load from the factory, or would it definitely need to be sent to a guru mentioned on this board? My pessimistic side says don't trust a dealership mechanic...(throws hands in air)
Welcome back to the forum Rick. The earlier LT FD's had a higher incidence of incorrect assembly than the later ones but getting a later model in no way gets you completely out of the woods on that as FD failures have happened across the board, just significantly fewer in later years as they seem to have gotten the hang of better assembly. You didn't mention the year of the LT you have your eye on assuming it isn't the one your friend has mentioning looking for service records.

I think there are very few shops that would take the time needed to actually do the proper process ( like Saddleman ) and added to that is how many have they done to sharpen their skills at getting it right the first time. I have done 2 myself and it is a job that requires some special tools and skills using them to get right. Shops are in business to make money so anything relayed without first hand viewing ( imo ) is suspect Is a dealer capable of doing the job? depends on the person doing it but not beyond the realm of possibility.

Not sure what your mechanical savvy is but it doesn't take much to check.change the oil in a FD so I would be leaning towards a first hand inspection of that drain plug and not trust what a dealer said. That being said, Saddleman is the go to guy if you want it done right should you need the service.

Re-shimiming after the fact is not valuable by itself as damage has likely already been done to the bearing from metal fatigue if it is over shimmed and would not likely add much life if any on a bearing that has miles on it. Replacement of the bearing and re-shimming really would be the only viable service to ensure proper operation. There are also other things to look at inside the FD that a dealer may not know to look for or overlook that Saddleman would not.

Good luck on your choice. They really are great bikes to ride.
Sep 3rd, 2018 1:38 am
Ricky Chuck
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Greetings, I joined recently (well I mean showed back up recently) and began reading up on these bikes because a good friend has a 2003 with 20k. He picked it up very inexpensively because apparently the abs reservoir was low enough to cause some code(s) but he bought it on a chance and after that was found it has been a great bike for him the past few months. I currently have a 2005 1150RT with almost 29k and it has been a peach, no FD issues or any other issues the past three years...other than it was the last model made before the 1200 and it has no cruise, lol. (holds up a crippled hand) . I hope to find out Tuesday if he has any maint records from the former owner, too.

This K1200 seems to want me to buy it, lol, because it must know I overpack and CANNOT get my Neotec with a Sena 10c to go in the rear top case...maddening. In any case I am interested in the LT but I said all that to say I just finished reading this thread and holy moly lots of knowledge here, I bow to mighty men . The BMW shop here in Oklahoma City has been a good one the past couple of years, lots of care has gone into customer support and the mechanics have a good record among we riders for first-time fixes, etc. Service MGR has gone to extensive BMW schools in Germany and other places and sounds very knowledgeable...I know, a dealership...but...and my long-winded question finally...if I ask them to check out the FD and request they drain and examine the oil as it has been examined by all of you, for fuzz, flakes and possibly wobbling, will this be sufficient or do they as a rule have even more comprehensive tests they do to check for impending or actual FD damage? I expect and hope they will give as honest an answer as they can.

I love my RT even though my brain still wants to do single-track (wayyy pre RT) and go on multiple 600 mile day trips but it sounds like the LT will contribute to my comfort big time ...will I be making a lateral move comparing the two FDs with regard to potential failure? I know the RTs have displayed spline problems but the LT seems to also eat clutches...or maybe it is as someone said, more people complain than extol. If the oil looks good with minimal fuzz and no flakes I will be tempted to get it. Thank you for all your efforts in building this site and I hope it will become a frequent haunt for me.

NOTE: I forgot to ask one more thing...can an FD be re-shimmed correctly at a shop if the mechanic knows about this whole issue with incorrect pre-load from the factory, or would it definitely need to be sent to a guru mentioned on this board? My pessimistic side says don't trust a dealership mechanic...(throws hands in air)
Apr 7th, 2018 5:52 pm
KJN
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Thanks Gordon...

Will get that done.

Kimble
Apr 7th, 2018 3:48 pm
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJN View Post
Thanks to all for the never ending stream of good,solid and helpful information. Got the LT back on the road.

I swear I can feel the difference in the drive train. Special thanks to Dave (Saddleman).

Next thing...
Monitoring oil leak. Looks like the main seal (ouch!). Clutch is still OK. Switched back to Castrol 20W50 conventional and will keep a close eye on it.

All the best,

Kimble Neel
Phoenix
Good deal on the Saddleman repaired FD. Bad news on the oil leak. If it is the dreaded O-ring in the clutch housing, there is little you can do as it has likely cracked from heat and age and no type of oil will fix that. If it is the rear main seal, Oil type will probably do nothing there either as it is teflon and doesn't care what type of oil you use. If you haven't done it yet, I would drill the bellhousing weep hole and see if you get any oil out. A surprising amount can accumulate inside depending on the condition of the machined surfaces between the housings. The hole can be pretty small and drilled from the outside. The red dot is just for an approximate location of the lowest spot, not an indication of size.
Apr 7th, 2018 2:54 pm
KJN
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Thanks to all for the never ending stream of good,solid and helpful information. Got the LT back on the road.

I swear I can feel the difference in the drive train. Special thanks to Dave (Saddleman).

Next thing...
Monitoring oil leak. Looks like the main seal (ouch!). Clutch is still OK. Switched back to Castrol 20W50 conventional and will keep a close eye on it.

All the best,

Kimble Neel
Phoenix
Feb 26th, 2018 5:58 am
KJN
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Thanks....

I agree. The dealership is not getting the job. I drained the drive and inspected the gear oil and the plug.

I'm pulling the drive and sending it to Saddleman.

All the best,

Kimble
Feb 24th, 2018 11:52 am
CharlieVT
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJN View Post
...I have a 2000 K1200LT with 65K miles. The bike is currently at the dealer for a routine service. I have been informed I need a final drive rebuild. They did the "wheel shake" test...
I'll be a little more blunt than Gordon.
That's a very suspect diagnosis without other findings.
Tell 'em thanks for letting me know, but decline the rebuild.

Gordon is correct, detectable movement of the wheel on doing a "shake the wheel test" is much more likely to suggest pivot bearing problems.
Detectable axial and/or radial wheel movement when grasping the tire and "wiggling" has never been an early indication of a "classic crown wheel bearing failure". There are other failures of final drive components but these too would have findings of abnormal lube color, metal shards or flakes on the drain magnet, etc.
Absent those other findings, and only a positive "shake the wheel" test, I'd have zero confidence that they know what they are talking about. Or maybe they just need a little more work in the shop this time of year.
Feb 24th, 2018 10:31 am
cbxchris
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I would like to see the oil plug as it was taken from the FD. There is NO way a BMW dealer is replacing a FD for me.
Feb 23rd, 2018 9:38 am
KJN
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Thanks Gordon...

I'll be stopping by the dealership today to take a look.

Kimble
Feb 23rd, 2018 8:40 am
bmwcoolk1200
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJN View Post
Good morning...

I've been off this forum for a while. I have a 2000 K1200LT with 65K miles. The bike is currently at the dealer for a routine service. I have been informed I need a final drive rebuild. They did the "wheel shake" test.

I'd rather speak to "Saddleman" for an opinion and have him rebuild the drive if needed.

Can anyone send me his contact information?

Thanks in advance...

Kimble Neel
Phoenix, AZ

[email protected]
Kimble, you can find him on post #55 on this thread ( page 2 by my browser) and send him a PM. You have enough posts so sending a PM should not be an issue.

I would want to be sure that the wheel shake was not play in the pivot bearings and actually play in the crown bearing. If it is the crown bearing with wheel shake, your FD drain plug should have a bunch of flakes and possibly larger particles on it depending on how far it has progressed into failure.

I hope you don't live far from the dealer as if that bad, they go pretty quickly from there.

Good luck
Feb 23rd, 2018 7:39 am
KJN
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Good morning...

I've been off this forum for a while. I have a 2000 K1200LT with 65K miles. The bike is currently at the dealer for a routine service. I have been informed I need a final drive rebuild. They did the "wheel shake" test.

I'd rather speak to "Saddleman" for an opinion and have him rebuild the drive if needed.

Can anyone send me his contact information?

Thanks in advance...

Kimble Neel
Phoenix, AZ

[email protected]
Feb 12th, 2018 10:11 am
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
Yes, its just hard to follow that marketing decision to stay with a twin....

If Harley can't sell the twin with its "lifestyle" image to boot I have a horrible time thinking anyone at Yamaha thinks they can long term. Put that V4 in it, just yearly upgrades and they had a bike that could have been sold for 10 years without major revision.

Even with all its faults including the FD issue and its obvious lack of maintenance ease I am finding myself not at all interested in getting rid of the LT. I am not buying a new bike that I don't feel is a upgrade across the board.

Voyager, I hope you had the chance to tell someone involved with Yamaha what monumental screw up that twin was. My dealer claims to have already sent it along with the cancellation of his order for two of the ventures. He told me may be forced to take them though as he is other bikes every year. its the price of keeping the dealership. His thinking was discount the $*%* out of them and get them off his floor if that's the case. His personal opinion was after this summer when the new wears off they will sit on the floor.
Well, as some of you know, I am the shy sort who tends to keep my opinions to myself, but I did share my thoughts with both Yamaha and Honda.

Personally, I got the impression that they really didn't care to hear anyone's thoughts at this time. And I can't blame them. The die has been cast for at least a couple years so unless the sales really suck, nothing is going to change right away.

I think Honda will sell lots of Wings for the first couple of years. Like the K1600, you will have current Wing owners who ride mostly solo who will like the smaller and lighter bike and won't be affected by the 28% loss in luggage capacity. And they will "suck it up" on the loss in fuel capacity just to stick with Honda. However, I think by year three they will be deeply discounting them to get sales. Much like BMW has been doing now for some time, or even skipping a year on the top-of-the-line Tour model as BMW has done with the Exclusive. I could have bought an Exclusive two years ago for $4,000 below MSRP. That has to be at or below dealer cost and the dealer said he is forced to take 1600s in order to get the other models that people want to buy. He hates them.

With the Venture, I will be surprised if it ever sells well. You will get the normal first year sales and maybe some cross over Harley riders, but I will be shocked if Yamaha sells enough to cover their development costs. I still think the side scoops look tailor made for radiators. Maybe Yamaha has some sweet new liquid-cooled engine in the pipeline that just wasn't ready in time to launch against the Wing, but that is wishful thinking at its best.

Like you, I can't see paying big $ to trade for a bike that in aggregate is less capable than my LT for my mission which is two-up, long distance, luxury touring. If I were a solo rider, I would consider a K1600 or the new Wing, but more likely would save some money and buy an RT or more likely an FJR. I test rode an FJR a few years ago when they finally added cruise control and it was a sweet ride ... for one person.
Feb 12th, 2018 9:28 am
cbxchris
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Yes, its just hard to follow that marketing decision to stay with a twin....

If Harley can't sell the twin with its "lifestyle" image to boot I have a horrible time thinking anyone at Yamaha thinks they can long term. Put that V4 in it, just yearly upgrades and they had a bike that could have been sold for 10 years without major revision.

Even with all its faults including the FD issue and its obvious lack of maintenance ease I am finding myself not at all interested in getting rid of the LT. I am not buying a new bike that I don't feel is a upgrade across the board.

Voyager, I hope you had the chance to tell someone involved with Yamaha what monumental screw up that twin was. My dealer claims to have already sent it along with the cancellation of his order for two of the ventures. He told me may be forced to take them though as he is other bikes every year. its the price of keeping the dealership. His thinking was discount the $*%* out of them and get them off his floor if that's the case. His personal opinion was after this summer when the new wears off they will sit on the floor.
Feb 10th, 2018 10:07 am
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
I have not seen the new wing. Just reading what some of you guys are saying that have. Its somewhat disappointing. I want a true 2 up bike. Comfortable front and rear. Decent HP(to me in the 150 range is fine). LOW seat height, decent slow speed handling. I do NOT care about all the latest tricks and gadgets. Basically a updated yamaha venture royale would be GREAT. With the dependability that Jap bikes are known for.

I think Yamaha had the closest chance at succeeding until some MORON put that Harley want to be engine in it. Maybe they should notice harley can't sell the image and 1940's engine design any more.......

Wonder what the chance would be of Yamaha ever reversing course and putting a V Max engine in it?
One can hope. Of all the bikes we sat on in Cleveland, the Venture was the nicest by far, but awful low for me and the archaic engine is a deal breaker for sure. Add a modern engine and this would be a sweet ride.
Feb 9th, 2018 2:48 pm
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
I have not seen the new wing. Just reading what some of you guys are saying that have. Its somewhat disappointing. I want a true 2 up bike. Comfortable front and rear. Decent HP(to me in the 150 range is fine). LOW seat height, decent slow speed handling. I do NOT care about all the latest tricks and gadgets. Basically a updated yamaha venture royale would be GREAT. With the dependability that Jap bikes are known for.

I think Yamaha had the closest chance at succeeding until some MORON put that Harley want to be engine in it. Maybe they should notice harley can't sell the image and 1940's engine design any more.......

Wonder what the chance would be of Yamaha ever reversing course and putting a V Max engine in it?
Yeah, that V-twin was a mistake alright. Kawasaki pulled a boneheaded move by not having cruise in the Concours 14. The new Wing should be a true 2 up bike Chris. It has 125 HP but a boatload of torque. The rest isn't to your specs though. I personally would like to see "luxury touring" come back. Beemer & the Wing have strayed trying to get the younger crowd involved in cycling.
Feb 9th, 2018 12:28 pm
cbxchris
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I have not seen the new wing. Just reading what some of you guys are saying that have. Its somewhat disappointing. I want a true 2 up bike. Comfortable front and rear. Decent HP(to me in the 150 range is fine). LOW seat height, decent slow speed handling. I do NOT care about all the latest tricks and gadgets. Basically a updated yamaha venture royale would be GREAT. With the dependability that Jap bikes are known for.

I think Yamaha had the closest chance at succeeding until some MORON put that Harley want to be engine in it. Maybe they should notice harley can't sell the image and 1940's engine design any more.......

Wonder what the chance would be of Yamaha ever reversing course and putting a V Max engine in it?
Feb 9th, 2018 11:34 am
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Looks like they did for the 2018 model. It has an LT windshield and a Transverse K bike front end.
True, but it still has 90s level specific HP, the fuel tank capacity of a sport bike and luggage capacity of a sport tourer.
Feb 9th, 2018 9:57 am
jzeiler
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Or BMW could design the Wing for Honda.
Looks like they did for the 2018 model. It has an LT windshield and a Transverse K bike front end.
Feb 9th, 2018 8:38 am
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
What I have found by reading the 1600 forums is this. I have no intention of selling my LT.....bad FD or not.

I simply wish Honda could build the 1600 for BMW...
Or BMW could design the Wing for Honda.
Feb 8th, 2018 9:09 pm
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
What I have found by reading the 1600 forums is this. I have no intention of selling my LT.....bad FD or not.

I simply wish Honda could build the 1600 for BMW...
Some of the parts should have been farmed out to Japan. It is expensive to build in Germany & costs are being cut. So much is right with the 1600, shame they were not able to give it 100 percent.
Feb 8th, 2018 8:57 pm
cbxchris
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

What I have found by reading the 1600 forums is this. I have no intention of selling my LT.....bad FD or not.

I simply wish Honda could build the 1600 for BMW...
Feb 8th, 2018 8:35 pm
jzeiler
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Please play nice or I'll have to trim the posts.
Feb 8th, 2018 6:25 pm
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwbeemer View Post
Last I heard you had given up trying to educate me. Now your baaack. There is no sense to this banter that I can see?
Everyone deserves a second chance.
Feb 8th, 2018 3:24 pm
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post

OK, so you made a claim you can't support. Got it.
Last I heard you had given up trying to educate me. Now your baaack. There is no sense to this banter that I can see?
Feb 8th, 2018 1:04 pm
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwbeemer View Post
Do a you tube search on k1600gt/gtl problems & come back at me.
OK, so you made a claim you can't support. Got it.
Feb 8th, 2018 11:05 am
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Such as?
Do a you tube search on k1600gt/gtl problems & come back at me.
Feb 8th, 2018 10:05 am
Voyager
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwbeemer View Post
I wasn't aware of that. Thought they were still made here. I wish BMW well but they need to make some good engineering decisions.
Such as?
Feb 7th, 2018 10:29 pm
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
That in my mind is why Honda quit making bikes in the US. Poor quality control. The infamous Goldwing frame failures come to mind along with many more issues created in Ohio. Not Japan.
I wasn't aware of that. Thought they were still made here. I wish BMW well but they need to make some good engineering decisions.
Feb 7th, 2018 8:37 pm
cbxchris
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwbeemer View Post
Nailed it my friend! We hear about improper shimming ad nauseum. Where was the production supervisor? How long does it take to put a sensitive torckwrench on the assembled drive & check. Improper shimming would show up instantly. My heritage is half German half Swiss...the other half I'm not sure...& I don't have a lot of tolerance for sloppiness. The workers that have been let into Germany need to be supervised or Honda etc will beat BMW to death. I feel a Chris Harris type rant coming on so thats my 2 cents.
That in my mind is why Honda quit making bikes in the US. Poor quality control. The infamous Goldwing frame failures come to mind along with many more issues created in Ohio. Not Japan.
Feb 4th, 2018 5:51 pm
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen View Post
Pre-retirement I was a mechengr designer of several gearboxes (among a lot of other weirder stuff). I've thought about this problem a lot. The combination of available bearings, being a high speed gearbox transmitting a lot of power & torque, having to be minimum weight, etc - it ain't easy, and they have done a lot of things right in the FD. Yeah, they missed it but I'm more critical that they didn't get on the assembly procedure problem more quickly.

Just like spline problems in oilheads, the communication between BMW warranty, service people and quality control people is suspect.
Nailed it my friend! We hear about improper shimming ad nauseum. Where was the production supervisor? How long does it take to put a sensitive torckwrench on the assembled drive & check. Improper shimming would show up instantly. My heritage is half German half Swiss...the other half I'm not sure...& I don't have a lot of tolerance for sloppiness. The workers that have been let into Germany need to be supervised or Honda etc will beat BMW to death. I feel a Chris Harris type rant coming on so thats my 2 cents.
Feb 4th, 2018 2:29 pm
niel_petersen
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwbeemer View Post
Bearings, crownwheels, improper machining. The German giant could'nt do any better than this?
Pre-retirement I was a mechengr designer of several gearboxes (among a lot of other weirder stuff). I've thought about this problem a lot. The combination of available bearings, being a high speed gearbox transmitting a lot of power & torque, having to be minimum weight, etc - it ain't easy, and they have done a lot of things right in the FD. Yeah, they missed it but I'm more critical that they didn't get on the assembly procedure problem more quickly.

Just like spline problems in oilheads, the communication between BMW warranty, service people and quality control people is suspect.
Jan 31st, 2018 9:02 am
milwbeemer
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT View Post
Hi cbxchris,

The modes of failure and reasons for those failures have been discussed ad naseum on this forum over the past decade and a half. Early posts were more speculative, but later posts on the subject were based on the input of multiple knowledgeable folks, including a variety of professional mechanics, bearing specialists, mechanical engineers who all contributed to our collective understanding of the subject. I personally cut open about 50 failed crownwheel bearings to inspect and photograph damage to roller balls and races. Many of those pictures were posted on this site over the years for others to analyze and comment on. The consensus view is not the result of individual speculation, rather the result of considered analysis of many persons over time.

I will recapitulate here. In summary the evidence suggests (and I think this remains the consensus view of those who are knowledgable about these final drives):

Known failures include "the classic crown wheel bearing failure", the "creeping input pinion bearing", the "spinning tapered roller bearing", and the "spinning aluminum trunnion" of the crown gear assembly (my nomenclature, such as it is).

The classic crownwheel bearing failure is the result of assembly errors. It is not a lubrication problem, a bearing problem, nor a design flaw. (Unless you want to make the case that the design made it too easy for the assembly workers to shim it improperly. But I think that is more related to the assembly tooling than it is related to the actual final drive itself.)
Over shimming at the factory set the stage for premature crown wheel bearing failure. I have speculated on how this seemingly routine over shimming may have occured; I refer you to my earlier posts on the subject.

The creeping input pinion race is probably a machining tolerance error resulting in an insufficient interference press fit of that race on its seat on the input pinion shaft that allows this bearing to slowly creep off the shaft. Early stages of this bearing race creep can only been seen during open inspection of the final drive. Late stages of this failure become destructive to the internal housing of the final drive and eventually interfere with the tapered roller bearing. In the early bikes with a speedometer sensor mounted on the final drive housing, the speedometer sending ring can be displaced causing speedometer failure being an early symptom of this failure.

Likewise, the spinning race of the tapered roller bearing is likely an machining error resulting in insufficent press fit of that race on its seat on the crown gear assembly. This failure was often an incidental finding during inspection and repair of crownwheel bearing failures.

The spinning aluminum trunnion in its seat in the carbon steel crown gear is again a machining error resulting in insufficient press fit. (This is the failure that is most often detected during a wheel removal when the final drive gear lube comes out the lug bolt holes of the crown gear assembly.)

Other various failures I have seen reported seem to be "one-offs" with no obvious explanation.

In summary, the failures of the K1200LT final drives are the result of assembly or machining errors in fabrication.

Since the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure is by far the most common, and the one that often leaves folks stranded on the road, it is easy for people to think of this as the only cause of final drive failures.

After 2005, BMW had pretty well figured out they had a problem and the "plume" of crown wheel bearing failures was over.

For bikes prior to 2005 I have been an advocate of a preemptive rebuild by a knowledgeable rebuilder (Dave Selvig, Tom Cutter, not your local BMW dealer) as road insurance.
In my opionion, the cost of a good rebuild is cheaper than in interupted trip, a couple few nights in a hotel, bike towing, etc.

In summary, unless you know the history of an early (99-04) K1200LT final drive, it is a crap shoot. Since these bikes are now many years old, there's no telling what any particular final drive has been through. Many have been rebuilt by a summary replacement with a new crownwheel bearing without proper preload setup, and without regard for inspecting for other known failures.

With a final drive rebuild by someone like Dave Selvig, you can be confident that the drive will easily go at least 100Kmiles trouble free.
Bearings, crownwheels, improper machining. The German giant could'nt do any better than this?
Jan 31st, 2018 7:35 am
CharlieVT
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
Are those examples as is from the factory? If so that would somewhat make the case stronger that it is a assembly/quality control issue.
Hi cbxchris,

The modes of failure and reasons for those failures have been discussed ad naseum on this forum over the past decade and a half. Early posts were more speculative, but later posts on the subject were based on the input of multiple knowledgeable folks, including a variety of professional mechanics, bearing specialists, mechanical engineers who all contributed to our collective understanding of the subject. I personally cut open about 50 failed crownwheel bearings to inspect and photograph damage to roller balls and races. Many of those pictures were posted on this site over the years for others to analyze and comment on. The consensus view is not the result of individual speculation, rather the result of considered analysis of many persons over time.

I will recapitulate here. In summary the evidence suggests (and I think this remains the consensus view of those who are knowledgable about these final drives):

Known failures include "the classic crown wheel bearing failure", the "creeping input pinion bearing", the "spinning tapered roller bearing", and the "spinning aluminum trunnion" of the crown gear assembly (my nomenclature, such as it is).

The classic crownwheel bearing failure is the result of assembly errors. It is not a lubrication problem, a bearing problem, nor a design flaw. (Unless you want to make the case that the design made it too easy for the assembly workers to shim it improperly. But I think that is more related to the assembly tooling than it is related to the actual final drive itself.)
Over shimming at the factory set the stage for premature crown wheel bearing failure. I have speculated on how this seemingly routine over shimming may have occured; I refer you to my earlier posts on the subject.

The creeping input pinion race is probably a machining tolerance error resulting in an insufficient interference press fit of that race on its seat on the input pinion shaft that allows this bearing to slowly creep off the shaft. Early stages of this bearing race creep can only been seen during open inspection of the final drive. Late stages of this failure become destructive to the internal housing of the final drive and eventually interfere with the tapered roller bearing. In the early bikes with a speedometer sensor mounted on the final drive housing, the speedometer sending ring can be displaced causing speedometer failure being an early symptom of this failure.

Likewise, the spinning race of the tapered roller bearing is likely an machining error resulting in insufficent press fit of that race on its seat on the crown gear assembly. This failure was often an incidental finding during inspection and repair of crownwheel bearing failures.

The spinning aluminum trunnion in its seat in the carbon steel crown gear is again a machining error resulting in insufficient press fit. (This is the failure that is most often detected during a wheel removal when the final drive gear lube comes out the lug bolt holes of the crown gear assembly.)

Other various failures I have seen reported seem to be "one-offs" with no obvious explanation.

In summary, the failures of the K1200LT final drives are the result of assembly or machining errors in fabrication.

Since the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure is by far the most common, and the one that often leaves folks stranded on the road, it is easy for people to think of this as the only cause of final drive failures.

After 2005, BMW had pretty well figured out they had a problem and the "plume" of crown wheel bearing failures was over.

For bikes prior to 2005 I have been an advocate of a preemptive rebuild by a knowledgeable rebuilder (Dave Selvig, Tom Cutter, not your local BMW dealer) as road insurance.
In my opionion, the cost of a good rebuild is cheaper than in interupted trip, a couple few nights in a hotel, bike towing, etc.

In summary, unless you know the history of an early (99-04) K1200LT final drive, it is a crap shoot. Since these bikes are now many years old, there's no telling what any particular final drive has been through. Many have been rebuilt by a summary replacement with a new crownwheel bearing without proper preload setup, and without regard for inspecting for other known failures.

With a final drive rebuild by someone like Dave Selvig, you can be confident that the drive will easily go at least 100Kmiles trouble free.
Jan 30th, 2018 6:48 pm
cbxchris
Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Are those examples as is from the factory? If so that would somewhat make the case stronger that it is a assembly/quality control issue.
This thread has more than 50 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome