K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ... - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 22 Old Jul 19th, 2011, 1:58 pm Thread Starter
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K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

... here:

http://www.k1600forum.com/forum/bmw-...-approach.html

Note this is likely not the only approach to fixing the issue; just posting what worked for my bike.

Mark Neblett
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post #2 of 22 Old Jul 19th, 2011, 5:23 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Amazing fix, and the write up is ... well ... what we've come to expect from you.

Having said that, a $25K bike pulling to one side or the other? Umm ... unacceptable.

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post #3 of 22 Old Jul 19th, 2011, 8:48 pm Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13_ver2
Amazing fix, and the write up is ... well ... what we've come to expect from you.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13_ver2
Having said that, a $25K bike pulling to one side or the other? Umm ... unacceptable.
Unacceptable for $25K bike? Not sure.

Unacceptable for a nearly $30K MSRP loaded bike? Absolutely!

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post #4 of 22 Old Jul 20th, 2011, 12:31 am
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Great writeup Mark, as usual.

For reference, I looked up the torque specs on the K13GT manual for the upper leading link as it attaches to the frame.

The fixed stud gets torqued to 160 Nm, with Optimoly TA applied.

The moveable stud gets an initial torque of 15 Nm, then is loosened, then gets a final torque of 7 Nm, also with Optimoly TA applied.

Then you hold that moveable stud in place, and use a cutout socket to tighten the locknut to 145 Nm.

This is similar to what we had to do when removing/replacing the swing arm on the LT when doing the clutch slave cylinder.

Hope that helps.

Ken
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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
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post #5 of 22 Old Jul 20th, 2011, 1:09 am
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

I'm too impressed. Nice work.

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post #6 of 22 Old Jul 20th, 2011, 4:14 pm Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
The fixed stud gets torqued to 160 Nm, with Optimoly TA applied.

The moveable stud gets an initial torque of 15 Nm, then is loosened, then gets a final torque of 7 Nm, also with Optimoly TA applied.

Then you hold that moveable stud in place, and use a cutout socket to tighten the locknut to 145 Nm.
First -- Thanks, Ken! The initial torque/back off and retorque to a lower value is what I did -- learned that from doing airhead swingarms long ago and far, far away ...

Second -- I can't say how happy I am to see you posting!!!! I can't imagine you'll be down long given how driven you can be, but don't forget to take enough time to heal "right"

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post #7 of 22 Old Jul 20th, 2011, 8:05 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Yeah, learning to type with the left hand has been fun . . .

Looking forward to seeing you and the new wheels at CCR.

Ken
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post #8 of 22 Old Jul 20th, 2011, 8:17 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Yeah, learning to type with the left hand has been fun . . .

Looking forward to seeing you and the new wheels at CCR.
Very cool Ken I was hoping you were still coming to CCR. I'm sure you will be in a cage but there will be lots of bikes for you to "Take a spin on" at CCR.

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post #9 of 22 Old Jul 20th, 2011, 9:56 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapinn
Very cool Ken I was hoping you were still coming to CCR.
Wouldn't miss it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapinn
I'm sure you will be in a cage but there will be lots of bikes for you to "Take a spin on" at CCR.
Dunno about the cage. The '02 LT still runs just fine. It all depends on how quickly my throttle hand heals . . .

Ken
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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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post #10 of 22 Old Aug 15th, 2011, 7:56 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
Thanks!


Unacceptable for $25K bike? Not sure.

Unacceptable for a nearly $30K MSRP loaded bike? Absolutely!

So, any further developments in the left pulling issue? Mine tracks left with hands released, but the bike seems normal with a hand on the bar. Is this something that will create tire wear? Any prospect that the factory will do a fix?
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post #11 of 22 Old Aug 15th, 2011, 9:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosswrap
So, any further developments in the left pulling issue? Mine tracks left with hands released, but the bike seems normal with a hand on the bar. Is this something that will create tire wear? Any prospect that the factory will do a fix?
Nothing from BMWNA or BMWAG -- not surprising, as I'm sure they need time to process/figure out whether/what to do.

If you are referring to my K16, it is currently in the shop for replacement of the Duolever's upper and lower ball joints.

Mark Neblett
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post #12 of 22 Old Aug 16th, 2011, 12:32 am
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
Nothing from BMWNA or BMWAG -- not surprising, as I'm sure they need time to process/figure out whether/what to do.

If you are referring to my K16, it is currently in the shop for replacement of the Duolever's upper and lower ball joints.
Mark,
Is this issue having to do with the pulling issue ... or wear and tear / defective joints already ?

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post #13 of 22 Old Aug 16th, 2011, 8:10 am Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorhead
Mark,
Is this issue having to do with the pulling issue ... or wear and tear / defective joints already ?
It's about the front suspension -- first the misalignment for the left pull, then finding the steering randomly shifting to either side of center and finding excess motion in the upper ball joint.

I doubt the ball joint was a significant contributer to the left pull -- indeed, I believe the ball joint looseness was masked by the left pull, which "set" the ball joint to one side of its slack.

Mark Neblett
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post #14 of 22 Old Aug 16th, 2011, 9:35 am
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Interesting fix, seems to be a camber adjustment.
Would parts 5 and 6 replace part 7 on the left side? If so that would allow an easy way to change the angle without shimming.

Just thinking out loud.
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post #15 of 22 Old Aug 16th, 2011, 9:53 am Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by New2rt
Would parts 5 and 6 replace part 7 on the left side? If so that would allow an easy way to change the angle without shimming.
I've considered it; posted a response on the topic on the K1600forum site -- basically, I can't remember whether the threads of the pivot pin 5 and the pivot bolt 7 were the same size -- I don't believe they are. If they are, replacing 7 with 5 & 6 is the easy fix. If not, either a reducing sleeve is needed to accept 5, or the frame tab needs to be drilled and threaded to the pin 5's smaller diameter (obviously, on future new production).

Mark Neblett
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post #16 of 22 Old Sep 18th, 2011, 7:13 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

So, left pulling any further developments? Left pull must be due to misalignment, so a normal result would be tire wear! Is this correct? I have 8000K on my GTL now and the front seems to have very little wear, the rear is a bit flattened out in the middle, but I believe that is throttle related. Mine pulls left whith hands off, though with body english I can ride straight with hands off. Do all the K1600's pull left? If so, this should be a recall issue. How have you made out with your front end issues Mark?
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post #17 of 22 Old Sep 18th, 2011, 7:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

I received the bike back on Sept. 10 (went in on July 30). In the course of removing the upper ball joint for replacement, the joint seized in the fine threads of the wheel carrier (aka "forks"). That necessitated replacement of the wheel carrier and the upper and lower ball joints - i.e., most of the Duolever except the A-arms and the link to the steering head. Took about 3 weeks for the wheel carrier to arrive from Germany. Issues not completely resolved, and currently speaking with BMW on it.

Mark Neblett
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post #18 of 22 Old Sep 20th, 2011, 6:10 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

First off thanks !

Plus Good Grief...

I dont't know where to begin,Perhaps I will get the GT when all the dust settles..

WoW ! Go Man...

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post #19 of 22 Old Sep 20th, 2011, 7:51 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Mark do you think your adjustment of the tracking of your bike's front end precipitated the front suspension issues you had?
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post #20 of 22 Old Sep 20th, 2011, 9:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosswrap
Mark do you think your adjustment of the tracking of your bike's front end precipitated the front suspension issues you had?
Absolutely not, for several reasons:

1. The handling has always been "off" from delivery -- both a pull to the left and a random shifting of the travel direction or "tilt" of the bike going down the road -- the issues were present before I started my work.

2. The only mechanical change was to shift the upper A-arm ~4.5 mm to the left (thereby causing the tire footprint to shift ~13-15 mm to the right) -- nothing that could possibly be causally-connected to the ball joint problem or any other aspect of "unsettled" handling.

a. Out of an abundance of caution when reassembling the bike after the initial shimming, I torqued the right upper A-arm pivot very lightly. After the first test ride, I determined that there was a *tiny* amount of play in one of the upper A-arm angular ball bearings, simply because I had not torqued the right pivot enough to seat the left bearing that last .001-.002. I took the bike back apart and fully seated the bearing, eliminating all of the play in this part.

b. There was nothing in either the initial shim installation work, the second shim installation (more shims), or the pivot re-torque which could have caused any damage elsewhere -- certainly nothing which would explain the .050+ amount of slop in the upper ball joint out at the front end of the upper A-arm (the front end was fully and carefully supported during my work, so basically zero loads through the ball joint in the process).

3. Removing the pull essentially "unmasked" other handling problems.

a. The problem with the loose/defective ball joint was found immediately upon test driving the pull fix -- apparently, because the bike was biased to the left, it was holding the ball joint to one side of the "slop" range, so it was not as readily apparent as when the bike's bias to the left was removed.

b. After the front suspension parts replacement, there remained a subtle instability issue; I am still working with BMW on that issue.

4. No excessive force was been applied by me at any time to any suspension component -- indeed, other than the torque~ 70-80 ft-lb. applied to the main frame to break loose and re-tighten the right the pivot locknut and the left fixed pivot bolt, there was virtually no force applied to any component in any of the work I did.

So, I'm very comfortable in my belief that all the handling issues were there from day one, and that I did nothing to contribute to it.


Also, an important footnote: I don't have any reason to believe this is a wide-spread or class-wide problem -- I believe I was just the "lucky" one to draw the short straw and get a bike with a defective ball joint. Funny thing is, this is the only bike I've ever purchased that I did not test drive before taking delivery! Don't think that will ever happen again.

I still think this is a great bike, and even in the worst of this process, I was still recommending it to others. I really believe this is one of those landmark bikes that you look back on 30 years later and point to it as a game changer -- think R100RS, Honda CB750, the first Gold Wing Interstate, Vincent Black Shadow, etc.

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA

Last edited by mneblett; Sep 20th, 2011 at 9:13 pm.
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post #21 of 22 Old Oct 1st, 2011, 11:58 am
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosswrap
Do all the K1600's pull left? If so, this should be a recall issue.
According to this poll , 58% report pulling to the left. Note that from the same poll, nobody reported pulling to the right.

My first GTL pulled badly to the left; the second GTL not so much, but it's still there.

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post #22 of 22 Old Oct 1st, 2011, 6:39 pm
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Re: K16 Left Pulling Fix Thread ...

My GTL left pull is minor as well, but none the less, there. I think it has little real effect on tire wear. I changed out my first set at 9400 KM, best ever for a rear on any bike for me. Having said that, to have something done on this, all dealers of left pull bikes should be contacted to advise of the condition.
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