No spark - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 47 Old Apr 16th, 2014, 5:33 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
No spark

I've completed the winter overhaul on my 03 and now it won't run. I've checked the plugs and have no spark (at least on 1,2, & 4). I didn't bother with #3 after the others. The wires are on the correct plugs. I'm wondering if the alarm bypass / removal has anything to do with it. I followed John Z's directions on the bypass and triple checked it. The other thing I did was remove the radio from the stingray (I went ahead and removed the harness with the barrel plug running up to the stingray / radio (was that a not good move?). I've done all kinds of other maintenance as well but don't think any would affect no spark:

New NGK plugs - tested plug wire resistance and all checked ok
valve adjustment
new fuel hoses inside and out
new jiffy tite QDs
new fuel filter
all new fluids
new spieglers
new yacugars
new rear Bstone


any thoughts on the no spark - no run?

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 47 Old Apr 16th, 2014, 5:51 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

It is probably that new rear tire.

The alarm bypass does two things. Enables the starter signal, and powers the engine electronics relay. The latter includes the ECU, but the coil is powered with switched power from the ignition switch. You can check the connector on the coil pin 2 green wire for 12 v with the key on. Then to check if the engine electronics relay is OK, check any of the green/white wires on the fuel injectors as they should have 12 v when the relay closes.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #3 of 47 Old Apr 16th, 2014, 7:45 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

Just to make sure I'm on the same page, John: the connector to the coil has 3 pins? If so, the middle one gives me good voltage. When I checked the wires going to the fuel injectors, I got .05 at the highest voltage. I only pulled one of those plugs though. Where do I start with that? I just reversed the alarm gutting & I guess I at least did the bypass correctly as it had no affect - as in I still get no spark to the plugs.

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
 
post #4 of 47 Old Apr 16th, 2014, 10:36 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

If you got no voltage on the green/white wires in the fuel injector loom then the engine electronics relay is not closing. That was where you jumped pin 10 to pin 6 at the alarm. Go back and check pin 10 for 12 v with the key on. If it is there then the ground for that relay is missing and it comes from the reverser controller. Double check (go ahead and uncouple and re-couple them both) the two barrel connectors along the frame rail on the left side under the pillion seat as those are for the controller.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #5 of 47 Old Apr 16th, 2014, 11:20 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Talking Re: No spark

Thanks, John. Dang that new rear tire for causing all this I just checked it and I did have 12v at the 10 pin. After uncoupling both barrel connectors and squirting electrical cleaner in there I put them back together. Rechecked 10 pin and have .30v after cleaning barrel connectors. No voltage at injector electrical plugs now. I swapped out the battery with a PC680 from a buddy's LT without success. The 680 starts his fine and my battery also starts his - so much for my weak battery theory. I forgot to mention that I also replaced my 02 sensor over the winter, but I can't see any connections I may have compromised during that swap. I think I've unplugged and cleaned most of the connections and a visual inspection of fuses looks good. I've got a plug in the #1 wire and grounded and get no visual spark whatsoever. Over the winter I also cleaned the throttle bodies, did a Saddleman fix on the crankcase breather hose. Looking at the fuel rail and throttle bodies everything appears to be in order. I just rocked the rail out of the way a little - didn't unplug everything while I was in there.

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #6 of 47 Old Apr 17th, 2014, 10:12 am
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

OK that is strange the barrel connectors only affect the ground side of the EE relay and should have had no affect on the pin 10 voltage. The pin 10 voltage does come from the emergency shut off relay controlled by the kill switch. This is a complicated bike. So I would cycle the kill switch with the key on and monitor the pin 10 voltage to see what is happening there.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #7 of 47 Old Apr 17th, 2014, 10:28 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

I do have 12v on pin 10 ignition on. It goes to nothing when I toggle the kill switch. So that indicates a missing ground somewhere?

Toby

03 K1200LT

Last edited by Tobster; Apr 17th, 2014 at 12:05 pm.
Tobster is offline  
post #8 of 47 Old Apr 17th, 2014, 11:36 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

Is this thing supposed to make noise when the ignition switch is turned on? It does for a second then stops. It also does if I slightly move it with the switch on. It sits under the air box and above the fuel rail. Should the injector plugs have 12v constant with switch on? Still nothing at the green / white wire.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	593
Size:	1.71 MB
ID:	53641  

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #9 of 47 Old Apr 17th, 2014, 8:35 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

My bad the fuel injectors g/w wires come from the fuel pump relay so no voltage until you crank the engine or the engine is running. That object is the throttle valve actuator and it cycles on key on just like the fuel pump.

The voltage at pin 10 going on and off with the kill switch lets me know that relay is good. You may very well be missing that ground from the reverser controller. Go back to those barrel connectors on the left side and find the one with a Brown/Gray wire. That is the ground for the EE relay check it for continuity to ground. If it shows a high resistance that is your problem. Undo that barrel and check the brown wire to ground and see if that is good.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #10 of 47 Old Apr 17th, 2014, 11:18 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

Of both barrel connectors, only one displayed any change on the meter - the rear most barrel - pin 1 brown wire. When it settled it gave a 1.1 reading. I'm clearly not an electrical genius so I don't know if that's good or bad. None of the pins on the other barrel changed the meter. Checked with the ignition off and the female end of the barrel. Thanks John for walking me through this!

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #11 of 47 Old Apr 18th, 2014, 9:52 am
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

OK that means the lightly wired ground going into the reverser is OK. There is another one that is a large black/yellow wire (10.0 mm) with a brown sleeve on the end that goes to a ground tie point behind the battery. Double check that it is there. Notice in the picture you can see a Black/Yellow with a BLACK sleeve going to the starter tie point. This is the output of the reverser to run the starter motor for backing up.

Maybe we need to fall back and re-group on this. It appears you still don't have 12 v coming through the EE relay so maybe we go in there next and check the relay. Wish I wasn't still on the mend from my back surgery or I would jump on my LT and head on over.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Tie Points.JPG
Views:	585
Size:	46.6 KB
ID:	53721  

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #12 of 47 Old Apr 18th, 2014, 11:13 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

Those are there on mine and aren't loose when I wiggle them a little. I've got the cover off of the box containing the harnesses / relays up by the motronic. Is the suspect relay housed there?

I do wish you could just hop on the motor and head this way, but at least you're able to help us all on here. What counts is that you're healing in the right direction.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2918.jpg
Views:	638
Size:	620.0 KB
ID:	53737   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2919.jpg
Views:	289
Size:	786.0 KB
ID:	53745   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2920.jpg
Views:	286
Size:	608.1 KB
ID:	53753  

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #13 of 47 Old Apr 18th, 2014, 12:52 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

ALSO, just to verify I'm not missing something: If I pull a plug wire, insert the plug into the end and run a dedicated known ground from the neg battery terminal to the plug I [I]should[I] be seeing a spark when I turn it over, correct?

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #14 of 47 Old Apr 18th, 2014, 9:59 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

I would say yes but I have not done that with the LT. Many other engines though.

The one you want is relay # 7. Red/Green wire is the 12 V constant feed. Green/Black is the 12 V output to the Motronic with the relay closed. The Brown/Gray is that pesky ground from the reverser controller. The Blue/Violet is the 12 V from the alarm pin 6 (jumped to 12 V from pin 10).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Relay ID.JPG
Views:	347
Size:	99.3 KB
ID:	53801  

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #15 of 47 Old Apr 18th, 2014, 11:49 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
deanwoolsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Topeka, KS, USA
Posts: 3,105
Re: No spark

Toby in post #8 you asked about noise from what is the idle air controller motor (unsure what BMW calls it). Yes, it's normal for it to adjust itself. There is an almost hidden ground lug close to the idle controller. If you removed your throttle bodies when replacing the fuel lines check just to the rear of the controller for that ground lug. I have no idea if it could cause your symptoms, but it's worth checking as it would be super easy to miss on assembly.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
deanwoolsey is offline  
post #16 of 47 Old Apr 19th, 2014, 8:00 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

Dean, I checked the ground lug and it is good. Thanks for the suggestion.

John, the relay seems fine as it worked in other component slots housing the same relays when swapped and it read 102 on the meter (I think that's a good number?). There is power coming into the relay on both the switched and unswitched side. I think I can hear / feel the click inside when I turn the key on as well.

On another note: as previously mentioned, the fuel pump is energizing and I get a squirt from the lines when I disconnect the QD's. HOWEVER, when I pulled the injectors there is no spray from any of them when I turn it over.

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #17 of 47 Old Apr 19th, 2014, 11:17 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

I guess the real question is when you turn on the key do you have 12 v on the Green/Black wire coming from that relay. If you do then you need to pull the connector at the ECU and check for 12 V there. It will be on pin one there same color wire. If you have 12 v there then that is pointing to a toasted ECU. Rare but not unheard of.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #18 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 12:31 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

I do have 12v on the green/black coming out of the relay AND 12v on Pin 1 green/black from the motronic

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #19 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 8:02 am
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

Well I would want to confirm with a GS-911 before I would call the ECU toast. Maybe we need to fall back to the tasks you performed before this issue came up and re-trace your steps. Often it is related to the last work performed and could be nothing more than an improperly seated connector. You do understand the connectors with the locking bail? I would tug on all of them you had loose. I left one injector connector on but not locked and the bike ran like crap above 3,000 RPM. Took me forever to find it.

Since you have the tank off re-check that the hoses are on and tight (I know you said no spark). Re-check that the fuel hoses are correct and not crossed (pressure to return and return to pressure). The factory hoses are marked white for supply and blue for return. The orientation at the right side retainer clamp by the fuel pump is supply to the front and return to the rear. On the fuel pump the supply is inboard and return is outboard.

You said valve adjustment. Did you replace any buckets or just a check?

The radio should have no affect on this issue.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #20 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 8:35 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

I've checked every connector that I can find and have been back in the tank twice to verify the fuel related items. I've missed stuff before so it never hurts to look again. I'll go back over everything.

I replaced seven buckets during the valve adjustment. I feel confident they are now in spec. I triple checked those measurements before I buttoned it up there.
Thinking back on everything I've checked or replaced -over the past few months- the only thing I can think of that could be related is the reverser control module. While removing a gob of wires that were on the bike as part of an aux lighting system installed before my time with it, a wire got onto the top of that module behind the abs unit and it sparked. They were ran through a switch installed under the grab handle on the left side. It wasn't anything grand and I didn't think it was that big of a deal at the time. It's looking now like it was a big deal. I guess that could've grounded through the wiring and fried the motronic?

Toby

03 K1200LT

Last edited by Tobster; Apr 20th, 2014 at 8:45 am.
Tobster is offline  
post #21 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 1:56 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

Chances are that the wire just hit the case of the reverser controller, I doubt it could fry the ECU. I presume you made sure the cam gear was seated correctly on the cam. Just trying to find some reason why she won't start, or spark. Maybe by next week I'll feel up to a trip with my GS-911 in tow.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #22 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 5:56 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

As best I could tell the wire only hit the top of the case on the reverser controller. As far as the cam related items are concerned, I'm certain I lined them up just as they were before I loosened them originally. After reinstallation - they also looked to be turning properly when I did my confirmation checks on clearances before putting the cover back on. I did the zip tie thing and used 3 just to be sure. None came off before I wanted them to and I made sure not to tinker with sprocket movement while they were loose.

If I can swap a motronic from a buddy's 02 to check mine with, would there by any issues with doing so?

Whenever you are up for a trip to Chattanooga, you're always welcome!

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 7:06 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
Voyager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, PA, USA
Posts: 7,148
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobster View Post
I've checked every connector that I can find and have been back in the tank twice to verify the fuel related items. I've missed stuff before so it never hurts to look again. I'll go back over everything.

I replaced seven buckets during the valve adjustment. I feel confident they are now in spec. I triple checked those measurements before I buttoned it up there.
Thinking back on everything I've checked or replaced -over the past few months- the only thing I can think of that could be related is the reverser control module. While removing a gob of wires that were on the bike as part of an aux lighting system installed before my time with it, a wire got onto the top of that module behind the abs unit and it sparked. They were ran through a switch installed under the grab handle on the left side. It wasn't anything grand and I didn't think it was that big of a deal at the time. It's looking now like it was a big deal. I guess that could've grounded through the wiring and fried the motronic?
A good reminder to always disconnect the battery before working on the bike. Here's hoping you didn't fry the Motronic!

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Voyager is online now  
post #24 of 47 Old Apr 20th, 2014, 7:07 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

Yes you can swap with no problems but I really don't think that is the issue. I think you said the fuel pump would charge the lines, so that is controlled by the ECU. At this point I would button up the bike (Tupperware off) to the point where everything is hooked up and see if she will start. Just set the tank on no bolts. You may be surprised.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old Apr 22nd, 2014, 11:01 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

Still nothing

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 10:46 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

As usual you are spot on, John. I just wanted to test it just to rule it out so this morning I swapped out the motronic with one from a buddy's 02 with no success. I'm wondering now if it may be a Hall effect sensor issue. As best I can tell the wiring on the HES looks ok as far as I can trace it. Does the HES affect fuel AND spark?

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 3:21 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

OK it is not the ECU and the hall effect could influence fuel delivery as the ECU does not command the fuel pump on (other that the pre-charge at key-on) until the engine is running and the only way it would know is the hall effect sensor. This is where a GS-911 would come in handy. May want to check the connector in the lower electronics box.

I have never put a meter on one so I don't know what to expect. You could compare resistance measurements with your friends. Be sure and swap the red and black meter leads and check on the "diode" setting on the meter as these are sold state devices.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Hall Effect connector.JPG
Views:	189
Size:	21.0 KB
ID:	54073  

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #28 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 7:17 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
OK it is not the ECU and the hall effect could influence fuel delivery as the ECU does not command the fuel pump on (other that the pre-charge at key-on) until the engine is running and the only way it would know is the hall effect sensor. This is where a GS-911 would come in handy. May want to check the connector in the lower electronics box.

I have never put a meter on one so I don't know what to expect. You could compare resistance measurements with your friends. Be sure and swap the red and black meter leads and check on the "diode" setting on the meter as these are sold state devices.
John, Toby,
A simple way to check if the hall-effect (ignition) does trigger during engine rotation is the following method:

Read carefully, then click to see a short video on YouTube:
Should hear the fuel pump priming when you turn the ignition ON - also you should hear the 2 to 3 seconds pump priming every time you move the kill switch from left (or right) to center position

Fuel delivery must continue when the engine turns: this can be checked based on the fact the Motronic use the hall-effect-sensor signal to continue running the fuel pump.
Although I have never seen a K1200 engine starts during this test, you are potentially vulnerable because of you position - BE VERY CAREFULL when you try this. Also, if you are too forcefull (or push too hard) THE BIKE MAY FALL FORWARD from the centerstand.

1) Bike on centerstand
2) Manually put transmission in 5th gear for K1200LT, video was shot on a K1200RS so there is a 6th (might required a bit of wheel rotation to mesh the gears)
3) Ignition ON and Kill switch in the normal RUN (center) position
4) Behind the bike, on you knee, rotate the rear wheel (forward bike rotation) - you are working against the engine compression so you will need both hands. DO NOT put you hands inside or against the mag wheel (in case it would start), just put one hand on each side of the tire, press and rotate forward.

The relationship is not 1:1 (wheel rotation compare to crankshaft rotation)m but for 1 full turn of the wheel, you should hear the pump priming cycle at least 3 times (at hall effect cycles).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3j5v1tZWw

If you have Hall-Effect signal, then you should have spark, unless coil is damaged or unplugged.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 7:27 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: No spark

John (sailor) that is really good to know

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 8:07 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
John (sailor) that is really good to know
This is an old trick I have learned from owners of K1100. So, on the brick-engine, the concept of using Hall sensor to trigger both ignition and fuel-pump has been around for quite a while. In fact, I think the same applies to all K75 and K100 (1984....)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #31 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 8:33 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

That is a great tip John. I just remembered I have a hall effect unit from a dead engine and was going to put the meter on it. But your method is certainly much simpler. As a safety tip loop a tie down strap through the center stand and the front wheel to keep it from coming off of the center stand. I'll post my meter readings shortly.

Here are the readings if anyone cares to try it. But John's method is so much easier.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Hall.JPG
Views:	417
Size:	87.6 KB
ID:	54097  

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by jzeiler; Apr 23rd, 2014 at 9:02 pm.
jzeiler is offline  
post #32 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 9:04 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
Voyager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, PA, USA
Posts: 7,148
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
That is a great tip John. I just remembered I have a hall effect unit from a dead engine and was going to put the meter on it. But your method is certainly much simpler. As a safety tip loop a tie down strap through the center stand and the front wheel to keep it from coming off of the center stand. I'll post my meter readings shortly.
I have been following this and just can't believe something failed spontaneously during your maintenance work. This just smells to me like a connector that didn't get reconnected during assembly. Have you backtracked all of your work and are sure you reconnected every connection?

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Voyager; Apr 23rd, 2014 at 9:25 pm.
Voyager is online now  
post #33 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 9:06 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
That is a great tip John. I just remembered I have a hall effect unit from a dead engine and was going to put the meter on it. But your method is certainly much simpler. As a safety tip loop a tie down strap through the center stand and the front wheel to keep it from coming off of the center stand. I'll post my meter readings shortly.
As you know there is a more complicated way - by going into the HALL effect sensor connector located into electrical box. Next 2 paragraphs is an extract from a document on doing the static-timing to locate correct hall effect position (when re-installing). I am quite sure I took this document in your "hall of wisdom" a while ago:

---- QUOTE from: Setting Static Ignition Timing on BMW K1200LT by Paul Browne -----
Next, find the place where you will tap into the orange wire at the HES sensor plug. This plug is in a box on the right side of the air intake box. Look for a box to the rear of the right radiator with lots of wires running into it. It has four screws holding the cover. When you take the cover off there is a frame with several connectors attached. This frame can be pulled out and up. Underneath is the HES plug. It has red, green, brown, orange and silver wires coming out of it. Use ONLY an analog multi-meter for the next step. Use a small straight pin or piercing probe to attach to the orange wire. Attach the negative lead to any ground wire.

Now, turn on the ignition. Imagine that you are in the position of the front wheel and that you're looking towards the back of the bike at the circular HES sensor plate at the front side of the engine. Underneath the plate is the end of the crankshaft. It rotates clockwise from your “front wheel's eye” view. If you rotate the HES sensor plate clockwise, you will retard the timing. Rotate the HES clockwise (remembering your front wheel's eye view). Your multi-meter will read the better part of 12 volts. As you rotate the HES plate counter-clockwise, the HES will trigger a relay and the voltage reading will drop to zero. Simultaneously, you'll also hear the relay click.
---- End of QUOTE ----

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #34 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 9:10 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I have been following this and just can't believed something failed spontaneously during your maintenance work. This just smells to me like a connector that didn't get reconnected during assembly. Have you backtracked all of your work and are sure you reconnected every connection?
I am with you on this one Matt. But I have seen thing take a crap when you least expect it. We will find it eventually.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #35 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 9:20 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
I am with you on this one Matt. But I have seen thing take a crap when you least expect it. We will find it eventually.
A few months ago, on the K1200RS forum, someone had a similar problem - no spark. But he said he had done some work around timing cover (maybe replace a seal, cannot remember that part of the story).

When he described his work to submit problem, he failed to mention that he has stripped one screw holding the hall effect cup. In the process, he had used a replacement screw he had on hand.... but it was a bit longer. This had damaged one or both small coil on the hall effect plate.

When he did the wheel rotation test and found out that hall effect did not trigger, he finally told us the whole story (the darn screw...).

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #36 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 9:31 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
Voyager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, PA, USA
Posts: 7,148
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
I am with you on this one Matt. But I have seen thing take a crap when you least expect it. We will find it eventually.
I am not saying a failure is not possible, just saying it isn't probable. Whenever work is done and things don't work afterwards, at least 9 times out of 10 the "failure" is related to the recently completed work.

Occam's razor.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Voyager is online now  
post #37 of 47 Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 10:13 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: No spark

It is difficult to find your own mistakes, but rotating the wheel is a simple test

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #38 of 47 Old Apr 24th, 2014, 12:23 am
Lifetime Supporter
 
deanwoolsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Topeka, KS, USA
Posts: 3,105
Re: No spark

Excellent technical tip John. To modify it just a bit for safety, a test lamp could be hooked up to the fuel pump connection. Then instead of listening for the pump, you just get a light and it can't start because there's no chance of pressure to the rail. You could also just just use the starter with a lamp since you've gone from an audible test to a visual one. Just a thought. I think it would work.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
deanwoolsey is offline  
post #39 of 47 Old Apr 26th, 2014, 10:37 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

It's been too busy at work this week to tinker too much with this issue. Today I found some time to devote to it. While I had the cover to the relays off, I unplugged the Hall Effect Sensor and examined the wiring all the way down to the HES itself after removing that cover from the front of the engine. No visible issues with the wiring. I then removed each fuse from the 3 boxes at the rear and checked each one for continuity. All seemed ok. I figured it was worth a shot, so I grounded out #1 plug in the end of the wire and bumped the starter a bit. Low and behold I saw a spark for the first time!

So I began putting things back in order enough to reset the tank and connect the fuel lines. It fired right up and she was purring away. HOWEVER, I noticed the headlight & running lights were NOT on while it was running. Cut the power and the light is back on. I went to push the starter button again and got no response. I toggled the kill switch and it started when I toggled from the side to the center position without pushing the button. When I manipulate the reverse knob while it's running (moving it just a little to the rear) the lights come back on. When I fully engage reverse (while in neutral) the rpm's increase and the reverse light activates on the instrument panel.

Previously, when it wasn't sparking or running I tried manipulating the reverse knob without success in affecting the spark. There is definitely something electrical going on. There are a couple of plugs by the O2 sensor plug is under the seat. One of them is tied to the reverser I guess because when I unplug it with the bike running the lights come back on. There is also another plug by the left crash bar that has the same result. As frustrating as it is, it's progress I suppose.

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #40 of 47 Old Apr 26th, 2014, 11:24 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

The lights not coming back on means there is a ground issue with the starter motor. Check the bolt at the rear of the starter on the transmission housing. See picture. Now if that is tight then there is something still putting 12 v at the starter causing the load shed relay to cut the lights. I suspect it is the reverser causing this since you said "in reverse the RPM goes up". That should not happen in reverse until you press the starter button. To isolate this remove the large black/yellow wire with a black sleeve on it from the left side tie point behind the battery. See second pic. This is where the starter relay and the output of the reverser go to the starter motor and the load shed relay. With this off you should see normal operation. But then we have to figure out why that is happening.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Starter.jpg
Views:	343
Size:	263.6 KB
ID:	54425   Click image for larger version

Name:	Reverse feed.jpg
Views:	357
Size:	222.6 KB
ID:	54433  

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #41 of 47 Old Apr 27th, 2014, 10:12 am
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

I just re-read your post and the point where you cycled the kill switch and the bike started without pushing the starter button is pointing more and more to the reverser controller trying to power the starter all the time. I think the "spark" on the case may have damaged the controller. But if you pull that cable I suggested you will have your answer. Just be sure to pull the negative cable off the battery before you do this and insulate the removed lead.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #42 of 47 Old Apr 28th, 2014, 8:48 am Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

I pulled the large black / yellow and the starter still won't engage with pushing the button. It will, however, still engage with toggling the kill switch. It still runs with the same result - no lights unless I manipulate the reverse controller. Also, unhooking either of the two barrel connectors on the left at the year (that you previously mentioned) after its running will allow the lights to come back on.

Toby

03 K1200LT

Last edited by Tobster; Apr 28th, 2014 at 9:13 am.
Tobster is offline  
post #43 of 47 Old Apr 28th, 2014, 3:35 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

When you toggle the kill switch does it auto start or can you then start it by pushing the button? I think we are getting close and the fact you have to wiggle the RF switch points to an issue there. the purpose of the two micro switches on that shaft are one, cut off starter signal from the starter relay; and two, to enable the reverser controller to respond to the start signal. Wiggling it may be enabling the signal to get to the starter relay. You cannot just remove the entire reverser as the starter signal goes through it. But if you undo the the barrels and the lights come on that indicates a stuck starter signal. This is getting too hard to remote diagnose.

I need to meet with Justin at Pandoras before our CCR scouting trip on the 10th so I may be in Chattanooga on the 3rd. Can make some time to swing by and lay some eyes on the situation.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #44 of 47 Old Apr 28th, 2014, 11:13 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

It does auto start upon toggling the kill switch. Pushing the button now does nothing at any time. I'm perplexed by the fact that the push button start switch worked the whole time I was previously (though unsuccessfully) trying to start it before when I was getting no spark or fuel. The only time I was remotely close to the reverser micro switch (or where I think it is) was when I replaced the O2 sensor and did maintenance on the shifter linkage. Let me know on your available time on the 3rd and I'll make sure I'm around. Thanks much.

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
post #45 of 47 Old May 3rd, 2014, 7:12 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,269
Re: No spark

Thought I would close the chapter on this. Matt (Voyager) was partially correct as we found the reason for the "auto start" and it was the two pairs of alarm bypass wires were covered in liquid tape but had been stowed before they cured. Thus switched 12 v was shorted to the starter circuit.

We never did figure out what the cause of the original fault (No Spark). That had cause him to think there was a problem with the alarm bypass so he reversed it then put it back (causing the auto start). He had removed all fuses and re-inserted them but then it would start automatically.

Some times doing more than one task during a maintenance session can have you chasing your tail when things don't go correctly. All is well now for a new LT owner. When I left he had a big ear to ear grin! Nice meeting you Toby.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #46 of 47 Old May 3rd, 2014, 7:51 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
Voyager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, PA, USA
Posts: 7,148
Re: No spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Thought I would close the chapter on this. Matt (Voyager) was partially correct as we found the reason for the "auto start" and it was the two pairs of alarm bypass wires were covered in liquid tape but had been stowed before they cured. Thus switched 12 v was shorted to the starter circuit.

We never did figure out what the cause of the original fault (No Spark). That had cause him to think there was a problem with the alarm bypass so he reversed it then put it back (causing the auto start). He had removed all fuses and re-inserted them but then it would start automatically.

Some times doing more than one task during a maintenance session can have you chasing your tail when things don't go correctly. All is well now for a new LT owner. When I left he had a big ear to ear grin! Nice meeting you Toby.
It is great to hear a good outcome. Now everyone can get back to riding!

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Voyager is online now  
post #47 of 47 Old May 4th, 2014, 9:05 pm Thread Starter
Member
 
Tobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Posts: 75
Re: No spark

John - thanks for updating everyone. I meant to do so sooner, but got tied up. A huge thanks to you for stopping by to help me out! A real stand up guy and LT guru. Thanks to all for the input and advice. I figured it would be something silly that I overlooked and I'm glad it was just that - at least not a major issue to contend with. This winter maintenance has been a great learning experience and I absolutely would not have made it through it with any amount of sanity without the help of the great folks on this forum. I'm looking forward to getting her buttoned up and riding!

Toby

03 K1200LT
Tobster is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How annoying the progress of spark plugs PhillWard Australia, New Zealand, and AsiaPac 3 Aug 15th, 2013 10:08 pm
Spark when Battery is Installed? SteveW K1200LT 3 May 10th, 2013 2:33 pm
R1150GS adventure dual spark mpillis GS Series 6 Sep 29th, 2008 5:56 am
Where to get spark plug socket? browad K1200LT 14 Nov 3rd, 2007 1:05 pm

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome