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post #1 of 18 Old Sep 18th, 2013, 7:15 am Thread Starter
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Help, Final Dive failure

Hi guys, can you help me please, I have had final drive failure on my 99 LT, I have contacted all the Motorrad dealers in Scotland to carry out a repair but they are not willing to do so, as they state they do not have the proper tools.
Some shim material was attached to the magnetic sump plug, so I know the shims are damaged,
does anybody know of anyone who can repair this in the uk
Cheers
Dochie
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post #2 of 18 Old Sep 19th, 2013, 12:21 am
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Question Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochie
Hi guys, can you help me please, I have had final drive failure on my 99 LT, I have contacted all the Motorrad dealers in Scotland to carry out a repair but they are not willing to do so, as they state they do not have the proper tools.
Some shim material was attached to the magnetic sump plug, so I know the shims are damaged,
does anybody know of anyone who can repair this in the uk
Cheers
Dochie
Would it be cost prohibitive to send it to Tom Cutter in Pennsylvania??

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post #3 of 18 Old Sep 19th, 2013, 6:48 am
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochie
Hi guys, can you help me please, I have had final drive failure on my 99 LT, I have contacted all the Motorrad dealers in Scotland to carry out a repair but they are not willing to do so, as they state they do not have the proper tools.
Some shim material was attached to the magnetic sump plug, so I know the shims are damaged,
does anybody know of anyone who can repair this in the uk
Cheers
Dochie
Have you thought about doing it yourself? I'm just guessing that transatlantic shipping would be pretty expensive, and would put you pretty close to buy a new FD.

If you have the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure and no other issues, the repair can be done with a few tools and guidance that you can find here on this board.

You could start by removing the drive from the bike and removing the final drive cover to inspect the crown wheel bearing.

If you rule out other damage to the FD, a bearing, shim(s), and seal are all you'll need to fix it. You'd probably have to buy a couple of tools but with help from folks on this site you could get it done.
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post #4 of 18 Old Sep 19th, 2013, 8:53 am
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Dochie,

Take a look at this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn5zs8RslF4


Doesn't appear to be that hard to do. If you decide to tackle this, I would suggest that you first watch Johns Z's video Part A on "weep hole drilling" for the FD removal procedure that can be found in the "Sticky" area of the forum.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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post #5 of 18 Old Sep 19th, 2013, 9:28 am
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

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Originally Posted by FatStrat
Dochie,

Take a look at this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn5zs8RslF4


Doesn't appear to be that hard to do. If you decide to tackle this, I would suggest that you first watch Johns Z's video Part A on "weep hole drilling" for the FD removal procedure that can be found in the "Sticky" area of the forum.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Holy Moly, that's my video. I didn't know someone had edited it and put it on YouTube. Pretty cool, I haven't watched the entire thing to see how it was edited, but it has to be an improvement, my editing (or lack thereof) made the video pretty tedious. And being on YouTube sure makes the video easier to find on the net.

My only comment so far on the editing is that the intro text added at the beginning refers to removing the "brakes" in the video, I'm pretty sure the author meant the "breaks" in the video, and "alone the way" should read "along the way".

I would have edited out the segment showing heating of the cover to remove from the housing, as that is unnecessary. Heating of the cover will facilitate removal of the bearing, and should be done for installation of a new bearing, but is not needed for removal of the cover from the housing.

The editor added a comment about another method of preload measurement show in the BMW Service Manual. Anyone considering the service manual method should be cautioned that it requires a BMW Special Tool and that method has some quirks which may have been responsible for the many drives assembled with excess preload at the factory. I have used both methods and compared the results of the two methods on many drives. Both method can provide comparable results, but the Class "C" (sloppy bearing) can tilt during measurements during the service manual method resulting in an error that results in excess preload calculations.

My thanks for posting the link here as I didn't know an edited version existed on YouTube, and my thanks to whoever it was that took the trouble to edit and upload to YouTube.

Last edited by CharlieVT; Sep 19th, 2013 at 9:37 am.
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post #6 of 18 Old Sep 19th, 2013, 9:54 am
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

[QUOTE=CharlieVT]Holy Moly, that's my video. I didn't know someone had edited it and put it on YouTube. Pretty cool, I haven't watched the entire thing to see how it was edited, but it has to be an improvement, my editing (or lack thereof) made the video pretty tedious. And being on YouTube sure makes the video easier to find on the net.

My only comment so far on the editing is that the intro text added at the beginning refers to removing the "brakes" in the video, I'm pretty sure the author meant the "breaks" in the video, and "alone the way" should read "along the way".

I would have edited out the segment showing heating of the cover to remove from the housing, as that is unnecessary. Heating of the cover will facilitate removal of the bearing, and should be done for installation of a new bearing, but is not needed for removal of the cover from the housing.

The editor added a comment about another method of preload measurement show in the BMW Service Manual. Anyone considering the service manual method should be cautioned that it requires a BMW Special Tool and that method has some quirks which may have been responsible for the many drives assembled with excess preload at the factory. I have used both methods and compared the results of the two methods on many drives. Both method can provide comparable results, but the Class "C" (sloppy bearing) can tilt during measurements during the service manual method resulting in an error that results in excess preload calculations.

My thanks for posting the link here as I didn't know an edited version existed on YouTube, and my thanks to whoever it was that took the trouble to edit and upload to YouTube.[/QUOTE

See that Charley... you're a "Global Celebrity" and you didn't even know it.

My thanks to you for making the vid in the first place. Think of how many people have benefited from it.

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post #7 of 18 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 8:32 am Thread Starter
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Hi Guys
Thanks for the info, I have sent the drive off to MOTOSCOT based in Luton England, Steve the mechanic there has 21 years of BMW experience, has rebuilt lots of these and has all the parts in stock, just waiting on its return
Thanks for the help
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post #8 of 18 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 10:17 am
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Was watching that video and abruptly stopped. hmmm bummer
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post #9 of 18 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 3:58 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Although the method described in CharlieVT's video is the best way to determine the preload, I wonder if the several small bits of solder method might be better for those that don't have a fixture and dial indicator readout. Everyone (well almost) has a small micrometer and many even probably know how to use it.

Is there a video of the solder method?

At any rate some questions to the mechanics are in order to find out how they establish the new bearing's preload, no matter how many years of experience they boast of. Just maybe they learned how to do it at the BMW training sessions.
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post #10 of 18 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 7:41 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
Although the method described in CharlieVT's video is the best way to determine the preload, I wonder if the several small bits of solder method might be better for those that don't have a fixture and dial indicator readout. Everyone (well almost) has a small micrometer and many even probably know how to use it.

Is there a video of the solder method?

At any rate some questions to the mechanics are in order to find out how they establish the new bearing's preload, no matter how many years of experience they boast of. Just maybe they learned how to do it at the BMW training sessions.

I think David S pretty much poo pooed the solder method several years ago.

Also the preload is not for the new bearing but rather for the old taper bearing. There is just not enough variance for the new bearing to have much effect on the preload so if it is off it was off with the original bearing.

Again thanks for the sleeve, it appears to still be holding just fine.

I did a rear drive oil change after my 6,000 mile CCR trip and the the oil looked just like it did when it went in. I started to panic as the first glance at the drain plug magnet showed some shiny stuff, but it was just the magnet showing through the minimal "fuzz" that had accumulated.

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post #11 of 18 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 7:58 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
Although the method described in CharlieVT's video is the best way to determine the preload, I wonder if the several small bits of solder method might be better for those that don't have a fixture and dial indicator readout. Everyone (well almost) has a small micrometer and many even probably know how to use it.

Is there a video of the solder method?

At any rate some questions to the mechanics are in order to find out how they establish the new bearing's preload, no matter how many years of experience they boast of. Just maybe they learned how to do it at the BMW training sessions.
I have found the preload to change up to .004" with new bearings.

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post #12 of 18 Old Sep 25th, 2013, 8:10 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
I have found the preload to change up to .004" with new bearings.
OK Dave. Just what does that mean? You replaced both bearings or just the big one? Did it change by 0.004" to the under shimmed or over shimmed from the previous bearings? Just trying to figure out what you are saying with the 0.004" difference. I am kind of slow some times.

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #13 of 18 Old Sep 26th, 2013, 5:42 am
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

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Originally Posted by jzeiler
OK Dave. Just what does that mean? You replaced both bearings or just the big one? Did it change by 0.004" to the under shimmed or over shimmed from the previous bearings? Just trying to figure out what you are saying with the 0.004" difference. I am kind of slow some times.
When changing the crown bearing on a preemptive rebuild I always check the preload before I remove the original crown bearing. I have had to adjust the preload by as much .004" difference with a new crown bearing. In other words the original bearing was within spec. & when I installed a new bearing I have had to readjust the shims to achieve the proper preload.

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post #14 of 18 Old Sep 26th, 2013, 8:45 am Thread Starter
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Hi Guys
Just an update on my own FD, Just had it returned fully rebuilt by SCOTMOTO in Luton. with a total bill of 130, which includes delivery, I am one happy chappy, so for any unlucky LT guys in the UK with the same or similar problems, I recommend you give them a try.
thanks for all your help and comments, cheers
Dochie
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post #15 of 18 Old Sep 26th, 2013, 12:53 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochie
Hi Guys
Just an update on my own FD, Just had it returned fully rebuilt by SCOTMOTO in Luton. with a total bill of 130, which includes delivery, I am one happy chappy, so for any unlucky LT guys in the UK with the same or similar problems, I recommend you give them a try.
thanks for all your help and comments, cheers
Dochie

That sounds very cheap. What all parts were changed?

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post #16 of 18 Old Sep 26th, 2013, 5:12 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
When changing the crown bearing on a preemptive rebuild I always check the preload before I remove the original crown bearing. I have had to adjust the preload by as much .004" difference with a new crown bearing. In other words the original bearing was within spec. & when I installed a new bearing I have had to readjust the shims to achieve the proper preload.
OK. Very interesting.

John
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #17 of 18 Old Sep 26th, 2013, 5:19 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

If I understand how it's put together that makes sense. A tapered roller bearing would tend to "wear in' a little when it's new. I presume Dave finds the new bearing shows thicker when installed. The old bearing was likely slightly over-shimmed to begin with, but not the double or triple pre-load seen on most failures. What do you think?


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post #18 of 18 Old Sep 26th, 2013, 7:20 pm
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Re: Help, Final Dive failure

Hard to say. Since it was a pre-failure, preemptive rebuild and it was shimmed correctly it should not have needed a re-build. Having said that I do find it interesting that a new crown bearing would differ by 0.004" as that is the max value for pre-load. I just haven't measured enough bearings to know the variance.

John
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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