HELP Please - no power under load - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 12:43 am Thread Starter
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HELP Please - no power under load

Recently changed clutch on 2002 K1200LT. Also replaced the rubber boots on the throttle body. Got everything back together, but no power under load. It is like the timing advance is not working. Any ideas? Plugs and plug wires seem fine. No obvious vacuum leaks. What is going on....a little frustrated. What did I miss?
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post #2 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 2:48 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Have you got the right leads on the right plugs ??? .
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post #3 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 11:14 am Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Nice question - thanks.....but I think so. Facing the left side of the engine cylinder 1 to the left, then 2, 3, and 4 to the rear of the engine. Then clockwise on the coil with "1" in the lower left corner.

Sleeping on this last night. One thing I did do that is different is the crankcase breather manifold (rubber) had cracks all over it so I replaced it with my own version of hoses and "T" fittings. I know the inside diameter is smaller than the OEM version. I wouldn't think that would make a difference, but just in case thought I would mention it.
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post #4 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 11:31 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

When you put the collars on the TB boots did you clock them so they would not interfere with the throttle mechanism? This part can be tricky and you may not get a wide open throttle.
I doubt the smaller diameter breather hose wold make a difference.
Does the engine idle smoothly?
Did you check all 4 electrical connections for the fuel injectors?

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post #5 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 12:43 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Thanks zippy! Yes....I believe the clamps are clocked correctly (no interference with the throttle body butterflies). It did take some time and planning to accomplish that, but all is smooth with the throttle.

It does idle just fine - hitting on all 4 cylinders. All 4 plug wires measure 6K ohms and I checked each of the injector connectors and shot a little contact cleaner into each one just for good measure.

All is happy until I let the clutch out in 1st gear - especially if I point it up a little hill. The bike totally looses power completely - it starts to cough and choke and maybe even tries to misfire. Then when I pull in the clutch and let it settle down, it tends to come back to hitting on all four cylinders properly again. In neutral I seem to be able to rev the engine up with no substantial problem. It just really can't handle a load.
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post #6 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 1:57 pm
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Talking Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Fuel movement in the tank when you turn on the key? There shouldn't be and movement. A leak will cause low fuel line pressure.
Just a thought.


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Due to heart health, the Dr says not to ride under 40 degree air temp. Ugh! Now it is harder to get my 18000 miles a year in just in the summer. Guess that stopped my 20 degree rides now.
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post #7 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:01 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Right - was in the tank and replace the fuel filter and checked the hoses on the pump. All should be good.
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post #8 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:05 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Sounds like fuel starvation. You may want to double-check the connections in the tank like Vern suggested.

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post #9 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:25 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Another thought: have you done the canisterectomy yet? Do you get a wooshing sound when you open the gas cap after running the engine?

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post #10 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

I will check the fuel pressure though - good idea.
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post #11 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:34 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Yes, did the canisterectomy. Don't hear a wooooshing sound when I remove the gas cap....should I be hearing that ?

If I am having gas starvation would I still be able to rev the engine in neutral?
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post #12 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:42 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Are you saying the bike won't move when you let the clutch out, or it is low on power as you ride?

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post #13 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 4:54 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokn
Right - was in the tank and replace the fuel filter and checked the hoses on the pump. All should be good.
Another thought came to mind. When you replaced the fuel filter, is it possible that you installed the new one in reverse? There is an arrow showing the direction in which the fuel is flowing.

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post #14 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 5:03 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Check for a pinched fuel or vacuum line as well as proper connections on the fuel QDs. It does sound like fuel starvation. As the throttle bodies open up, there's too much air and not enough fuel. The only other thing would be if you created an obstruction in the air intake system and it's starving for air.


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post #15 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 6:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

All of you are awesome for helping me trouble shoot this issue - thank you all. What a great community!

So....couple comments catching up on questions:

The bike moves just fine (or tries to) as I let out the clutch, not a clutch engagement problem.

I think the idea of checking the fuel pump pressure, fuel filter direction, clamps, hoses, etc. is a really good idea. I'll do that tonight. I believe that I got it right, but there could be an operator error issue (me). I'll check fuel lines and proper connections as well.

I'll also double check the vacuum lines. They are all new. I removed the canister so I think I only have them running between the throttle bodies (that's all that is left), but I'll take a good look at them.

The hunt is on for fuel starvation - makes sense.
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post #16 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 7:23 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Look at your fuel disconnects and make sure they are seated fully. I had a guy drive all the way from Connecticut with intermittent power issues and the return line was not fully coupled together and was effectively a "dead end" for fuel return from the regulator (the QDs have a shutoff valve). His system was over pressured.

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post #17 of 60 Old Aug 15th, 2013, 7:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Yup, I can see that being an issue. My QD's have been removed and brass connections now sit in their place.
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post #18 of 60 Old Aug 16th, 2013, 2:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Struck out tonight.

Pulled out the fuel rail with the injectors still in it and turned over the engine to watch and see if there was fuel dispensed from each of them. There was. Don't know if it was the right amount, but all four of them appeared to be working. Also made sure that the pressure side of the gas line and return fuel lines were hooked up correctly between the gas rail and the tank - no issue. Also unhooked the pressure side of the fuel pump and installed a clear hose (on the bottom of the fuel tank) and turned the engine over to see how the flow looked through the fuel pump. I don't know if it was 50 PSI, but it seemed very strong (don't have the proper tool to measure fuel pressure). No gas swirling in the tank while the pump is running (no cracked hoses or loose connections inside the tank).

I did not pull the pump and filter out of the tank yet to double check the connections and proper flow through the filter (direction of arrow). That will have to wait until this weekend.

The plugs are BOSCH Super R6s. They have at least 40K miles. Should I consider changing plugs? If so....to what? Any chance the plugs could be getting wet when I first accelerate (put on a load)?
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post #19 of 60 Old Aug 16th, 2013, 12:18 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Have you checked all sensor connections? TPS in particular. Coolant temp and intake air temp?

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post #20 of 60 Old Aug 16th, 2013, 2:27 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Assume you reset the throttle position sensor (TPS)? Key on; rotate throttle from full closed to full open 3 times; key off. Then start as normal.

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post #21 of 60 Old Aug 16th, 2013, 2:59 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

I have done the TPS reset.

OK, sounds like I need to retrace my steps.

o This weekend I'll take the air box off and do a thorough inspection on vacuum leaks around the throttle body.
o I'll pull the pump and filter out of the gas tank and look for anything loose or hose cracks, clamps, make sure the filter is in the correct direction, etc.
o Probably a new set of plugs (can't hurt)
o Then carefully reassemble everything - clearance on the air box boot clamps, all sensors hooked up, reset the TPS, fresh gas.....cross fingers and start.

Anything else come to mind??
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post #22 of 60 Old Aug 16th, 2013, 6:56 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokn
Anything else come to mind??
Sacrifice a live chicken!
Fingers crossed!

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post #23 of 60 Old Aug 16th, 2013, 7:11 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

It was not the air box clamps that interfere with the throttle operation but the clamps at the base of the throttle bodies. But you should be able to see all that with the air box off. It is usually something simple that got overlooked. Go for the obvious. In my case it was a loose injector connector, pushed on but it wasn't locked. Came loose above 3,000 rpm and was OK below that. Drove me nuts until I found it.

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post #24 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 10:46 am Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Hello everyone -- I have been traveling this week so wasn't able to post an update -- but I do have new information. STILL NEED HELP......(please).

I did do a thorough inspection on the fuel pump, filter, clamps, hoses - all look good. Took the airbox off and inspected all the throttle body boots and clamps - all looks square and no interference with the throttle mechanism.

HOWEVER....I decided to start the engine with the airbox off to observe the result. I was surprised to find that somewhat intermittently but still pretty consistently cylinders 1 and 2 were firing in a way that I could look down into the throttle body and see combustion flames below and up into the butterfly. Cylinders 3 and 4 did not show the same thing - no visible flames at all (which I presume is normal).

Could this be why I have no power? Those two cylinders are firing on the intake stroke?? Or.....?? I'm not sure. Need some help, but I am pretty sure I have tripped on something directly relating to the power loss.

I need someone smarter than me to help on some ideas please.
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post #25 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 11:24 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

So you are running on two rather than four cylinders, I would concentrate on you spark plug leads, ensure they are tight and correctly positioned. Check that you are getting spark on all plugs.

HTH

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post #26 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 12:38 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

are you sure you have the spark plug wire on the right cylinders, there are 2 coils which I believe means 2 plugs fired at the same time if you get them mixed up at either end it will still run - just a thought

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post #27 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 1:44 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Or check if you have accidentally pinched a spark plug wire (or 2) that is now effectively grounded. This can happen when re-installing the BMW cover over the plugs.

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post #28 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 3:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

All four plug wires measure 6Kohms. Question...the coil is numbered clock-wise starting in the lower left hand corner with "1" above that is "2", upper right hand post is "3" and lower right hand post is marked with a "4". Does that mean cylinder 1 goes to 1 on the coil, 2 to 2 and so on??

Also, when I had the fuel bar out with the injectors still installed, I put a paper towel in front of the injectors and turned over the engine so I could see if all four of them were spraying a fuel mist. It seemed like the mist pattern on the paper towel was larger for #1 and #2, while #3 and #4 were a smaller mist pattern. I have not checked the fuel pressure in the fuel bar. Could this be my problem? Too much fuel being delivered through injectors #1 and #2?
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post #29 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 3:27 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

I was thinking of the k100 or k1100 with 2 coils - yes cyl 1 lower left then 2,3,4 clockwise according to manual, plug wires are numbered
what is the color of your spark plugs?
can you do a compression test?
when were valves last adjusted?

Gary
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1992 K1100LT
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post #30 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 4:58 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

PLUG WIRING - thanks on the plug wire numbering and coil connections. That seems to be correct.

COLOR OF PLUGS - Haven't been able to ride the bike for awhile, but cleaned up the plugs before I put them back in a few days ago. I'll try to run the bike some tonight and report out on the color of the plugs.

COMPRESSION - 140 lbs consistently across all four cylinders

VALVE ADJUSTMENT - bike has 71,000 miles. I have put on 40,000 of those miles. No valve adjustment during my time with the bike.
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post #31 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 6:24 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

what did the plugs look like before you cleaned them and how did you clean them, they are usually a light to mid tan, some find one of them darker, they should not need to be ever cleaned since you can only get non leaded gas, if original perhaps time to replace.

you should be checking valve clearance, my bike had 75K kilometers on it and they were almost silent very tight, obviously never done, I can hear them now sitting on the bike idling, tight valves will eventually burn

Gary
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Past rides
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2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
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post #32 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 7:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

PLUGs -- I really don't remember the plug electrode colors since I started work on the bike probably 6 weeks ago.

VALVE CLEARANCE -- this is probably a good maintenance thing to do, but with compression around 140 PSI in each cylinder do you believe that could be the reason for visible combustion in throttle body #1, #2?

NEXT -- seems like I should rotate injectors #1 and #2 with injectors #3 and #4 and see if the problem follows the injectors. I should also buy a liquid compression gauge so I can see if the fuel pressure is approx. 50 PSI. I'm curious because the spray patterns out of injectors #1 and #2 are different than injectors #3 and #4.
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post #33 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 8:03 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

if you are seeing flame on the intake side then it would seem It is blowback through an intake valve but compression is normal - the spray pattern should be the same on all 4 injectors so either 2 are rich or 2 are lean but does not explain flame just poor running also it is common rail so moving them should not make a difference

if it was my bike I would be checking valves clearance first and not run the motor any more until I did

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
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post #34 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 9:11 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45
if you are seeing flame on the intake side then it would seem It is blowback through an intake valve but compression is normal - the spray pattern should be the same on all 4 injectors so either 2 are rich or 2 are lean but does not explain flame just poor running also it is common rail so moving them should not make a difference

if it was my bike I would be checking valves clearance first and not run the motor any more until I did
I'm with Gary. Sounds like the intakes have insufficient clearance or have eroded (burned) and enough flame is getting by to ignite the vapor in the intake. Or the timing is way off and the plugs are firing when they shouldn't be. I haven't been into the ignition system yet on my LT, but I assume a Hall effect sensor is used to measure crankshaft position. If that has gotten flaky, strange things can occur.

The more I think about it, the timing sounds more probable given the power loss. Incorrect timing is likely to cause much more power loss than slightly leaky valves.

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2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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post #35 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 9:37 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

when you checked compression did you ground the plugs, not sure it is required with this system but on the K100s the ignition module could get damaged if you did not

this system fires all 4 injectors at the same time on closed intake valves, so to see flame caused by spark plugs is strange - plugs firing while intake still open on 2 of 4 cylinders really sounds strange

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single

Last edited by gary45; Aug 23rd, 2013 at 9:44 pm.
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post #36 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 10:24 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

It is unlikely that the intake valves would be eroded since they run cooler than the exhaust valves, and valve erosion doesn't happen overnight. Also, you probably didn't work near the Hall effect sensors, so chances are good that's not the issue.

The wiring diagram seems to indicate the coil actually consists of two coils, one for cylinders #1 and #4, and one for cylinders #2 and #3. With #1 and #2 acting strange, it is doubtful that the coil could be bad since that would mean both coils developed the same problem. The Hall effect sensors also seem to provide dual signals relayed to the respective coils, and again it doesn't make sense for cylinders #1 and #2 to show a problem but not #3 and #4 due to the layout.

The only other culprit I can think of is the Motronic control unit, but again it provides separate signals to the two coils. Cylinders #1 and #4 would fire together every 360 crankshaft degrees, and #2 and #3 would fire 180 degrees later but also every 360 degrees. It is probably worthwhile to double-check the plug wiring. Correct orientation is engine 1,2,3,4 from the front, and coil 1,2,3,4 clockwise with #1 at the lower left. Is it possible that #1 and #2 were swapped around?

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post #37 of 60 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 11:19 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Just for the heck of it connect the spark plug wire from #1 to #2 and vice-versa. This would eliminate the possibility of having the wires crossed and it is an easy test.

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post #38 of 60 Old Aug 24th, 2013, 9:02 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by andres
It is unlikely that the intake valves would be eroded since they run cooler than the exhaust valves, and valve erosion doesn't happen overnight. Also, you probably didn't work near the Hall effect sensors, so chances are good that's not the issue.

The wiring diagram seems to indicate the coil actually consists of two coils, one for cylinders #1 and #4, and one for cylinders #2 and #3. With #1 and #2 acting strange, it is doubtful that the coil could be bad since that would mean both coils developed the same problem. The Hall effect sensors also seem to provide dual signals relayed to the respective coils, and again it doesn't make sense for cylinders #1 and #2 to show a problem but not #3 and #4 due to the layout.

The only other culprit I can think of is the Motronic control unit, but again it provides separate signals to the two coils. Cylinders #1 and #4 would fire together every 360 crankshaft degrees, and #2 and #3 would fire 180 degrees later but also every 360 degrees. It is probably worthwhile to double-check the plug wiring. Correct orientation is engine 1,2,3,4 from the front, and coil 1,2,3,4 clockwise with #1 at the lower left. Is it possible that #1 and #2 were swapped around?
makes the most sense, he has checked them and rechecked, so they finally incorporated both coils in one physical coil, I did not look that closely at the diagram

wonder if the wires from the computer are reversed on the coil

Gary
2018 R1200RT
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2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
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post #39 of 60 Old Aug 24th, 2013, 3:09 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Working on mine one time I forgot to plug in the Throttle Position Sensor. The bike ran but didn't have much power. Surprised me that it ran as well as it did. It's easy to overlook being hidden behind the frame.

Best of luck.

53 MPG and life just keeps getting better

2001 Triumph Sprint ST [sold]
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post #40 of 60 Old Aug 27th, 2013, 5:01 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Hello everyone -- thanks for hanging in there with me. I keep chasing this in my spare time.

INJECTORS - So I took the throttle body off and cleaned up the injectors (ran carb cleaner through them), attempted to clean the fuel regulator, cleaned the injector electrical connections and put everything back together in an attempt to see if there was any combustion continuing in Cylinders #1 and #2. I started the engine (no air box) and looked down each of the throttle body butterflies. No flaming combustion visible.

PLUGs - put in new NGK Iridiums.

THE RIDE - I re-installed the air box, gas tank, seat and went for a little ride. It was amazing (for six blocks). It felt like a new bike with all four cylinders very happy and firing perfectly. However....after about six blocks I took the RPMs up to about 4,000 in 3rd gear and she "choked" - lost power, seemed like she was missing and I almost didn't know if I would make it back to the house. I turned off the engine, let her sit for a couple minutes and proceeded to drive home - she was still limping a bit. I do believe that I was also hearing some "popping" back into the intakes - like combustion

VALVE ADJUSTMENT -- a couple of you have strongly recommend checking the valve clearances. That's pretty easy to do so I'll take a look at that tonight. The bike probably has 50,000 miles since they were last checked - way overdue anyway.

TEMPERATURE -- Now I am starting to wonder about something being temperature related. More diagnosis is necessary here, but maybe I have a sensor that starts sending a bad signal to the Motronic Unit when it comes up to temperature. Sensors that come to mind: Water temperature, oil pressure, oxygen sensor...maybe the throttle position sensor...the hall effect sensor. Should I unplug these one at a time to see what the affect might be? (I guess that wouldn't work for the hall effect sensor, but maybe the others?) I don't have a wiring diagram to know the full list of possible offenders. Continued help appreciated.
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post #41 of 60 Old Aug 27th, 2013, 5:18 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokn
Hello everyone -- thanks for hanging in there with me. I keep chasing this in my spare time.

INJECTORS - So I took the throttle body off and cleaned up the injectors (ran carb cleaner through them), attempted to clean the fuel regulator, cleaned the injector electrical connections and put everything back together in an attempt to see if there was any combustion continuing in Cylinders #1 and #2. I started the engine (no air box) and looked down each of the throttle body butterflies. No flaming combustion visible.

PLUGs - put in new NGK Iridiums.

THE RIDE - I re-installed the air box, gas tank, seat and went for a little ride. It was amazing (for six blocks). It felt like a new bike with all four cylinders very happy and firing perfectly. However....after about six blocks I took the RPMs up to about 4,000 in 3rd gear and she "choked" - lost power, seemed like she was missing and I almost didn't know if I would make it back to the house. I turned off the engine, let her sit for a couple minutes and proceeded to drive home - she was still limping a bit. I do believe that I was also hearing some "popping" back into the intakes - like combustion

VALVE ADJUSTMENT -- a couple of you have strongly recommend checking the valve clearances. That's pretty easy to do so I'll take a look at that tonight. The bike probably has 50,000 miles since they were last checked - way overdue anyway.

TEMPERATURE -- Now I am starting to wonder about something being temperature related. More diagnosis is necessary here, but maybe I have a sensor that starts sending a bad signal to the Motronic Unit when it comes up to temperature. Sensors that come to mind: Water temperature, oil pressure, oxygen sensor...maybe the throttle position sensor...the hall effect sensor. Should I unplug these one at a time to see what the affect might be? (I guess that wouldn't work for the hall effect sensor, but maybe the others?) I don't have a wiring diagram to know the full list of possible offenders. Continued help appreciated.
Hi!

I'm coming into this conversation a little late and a bit too busy to read back too far to see what is up with your bike and diagnoses. I have read enough to have to ask the question: What was your bikes performance before you started working on it?

In my 45 years experience of working on machines from small engines to diesels not everything fails at once. Therefore humor me and tell me what she was running like and what prompted the service you have performed. Then list all of what you have removed and installed. The solution is probably right in front of us.

Ernie A
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Member: MOA, AMA, IBA, NRA, MERA
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2012 K16GTL (3/2018 to present) 68k (Totaled! 8/11/19 Deer strike)
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post #42 of 60 Old Aug 27th, 2013, 5:29 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

If it runs ok until it reaches temperature then you may have either a fuel pressure problem or a bad O2 sensor. Until the engine reaches the normal range, it runs on the pre-programmed fuel map which is much richer than the closed loop mode when it's monitoring mixture with the O2 sensor. You may also have switched your sensor leads during the service. I think I read that the engine temperature and coolant temperature sensors are close together and can be accidentally swapped if not careful. Did you have these off?


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post #43 of 60 Old Aug 27th, 2013, 7:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

To ErnieA

This is a K1200LT 2002 w/70K miles.
Bike was running pretty well before tear down, was doing some seeking at idle which I presume was the vacuum leak. Also has a Power Commander on it.

.....things I have replaced:

I am going to assume you will be able to visualize (from experience) how much tear down is required with each replacement - but if not, feel free to ask follow-on questions.

I have been fixing neglected "things" along the way.

ORIGINAL PROBLEM -- engine oil leak behind the clutch (O-ring replaced)

FOLLOWED BY -- replaced rubber collars on the throttle body (small cracks beginning to form), thoroughly cleaned the throttle body, replaced the vacuum lines on the throttle body, made by own crankcase manifold between the throttle body and the crankcase (badly cracked manifold), replaced fuel filter, replaced air filter, changed the engine oil and filter, rinsed and changed the antifreeze/water, bled the brakes and topped off reservoirs, replaced #4 spark plug wire (resistance was intermittent) and replaced the spark plugs.

Also to Dean Woosley -- good one on the potential swapped wires on the water temp sensor and the engine temperature sensor. I will double-check the wiring.
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post #44 of 60 Old Aug 27th, 2013, 8:18 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokn
TEMPERATURE -- Now I am starting to wonder about something being temperature related. More diagnosis is necessary here, but maybe I have a sensor that starts sending a bad signal to the Motronic Unit when it comes up to temperature. Sensors that come to mind: Water temperature, oil pressure, oxygen sensor...maybe the throttle position sensor...the hall effect sensor. Should I unplug these one at a time to see what the affect might be? (I guess that wouldn't work for the hall effect sensor, but maybe the others?) I don't have a wiring diagram to know the full list of possible offenders. Continued help appreciated.
Did plug in the air box temp sensor( at the front of the air box)?

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
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06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
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For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #45 of 60 Old Aug 27th, 2013, 8:19 pm
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokn
To ErnieA

This is a K1200LT 2002 w/70K miles.
Bike was running pretty well before tear down, was doing some seeking at idle which I presume was the vacuum leak. Also has a Power Commander on it.

.....things I have replaced:

I am going to assume you will be able to visualize (from experience) how much tear down is required with each replacement - but if not, feel free to ask follow-on questions.

I have been fixing neglected "things" along the way.

ORIGINAL PROBLEM -- engine oil leak behind the clutch (O-ring replaced)

FOLLOWED BY -- replaced rubber collars on the throttle body (small cracks beginning to form), thoroughly cleaned the throttle body, replaced the vacuum lines on the throttle body, made by own crankcase manifold between the throttle body and the crankcase (badly cracked manifold), replaced fuel filter, replaced air filter, changed the engine oil and filter, rinsed and changed the antifreeze/water, bled the brakes and topped off reservoirs, replaced #4 spark plug wire (resistance was intermittent) and replaced the spark plugs.

Also to Dean Woosley -- good one on the potential swapped wires on the water temp sensor and the engine temperature sensor. I will double-check the wiring.
Did you remove the Power Commander? Things may have to be re-programmed after doing that. Or possibly, if it is still installed, it might need programming after having the power disconnected to it. (I admit ignorance regarding that device).

Does it idle smoothly now? Have you reset the throttle position switch? After having the throttle bodies off you will need to reset them. Disconnect the battery and rotate the throttle to full lock three or four times and then reconnect the battery and start it up. See if things improve. It sounds like you have checked the plug wires a few times and they are in time. You have checked the throttle bodies and they are attached properly and you have no vacuum leaks. The breather hose setup you have made must be air tight too or that is another potential vacuum leak.

Next tell me how you attached the fuel filter and what direction did you aim the arrow?

And also why would you have had the temperature sensor and O2 sensor wires disconnected? If you didn't disconnect them and it was running fine before you shouldn't have to touch them now.

And if it ran OK before, the valves didn't magically move out of adjustment while it was sitting there apart (just sayin'), therefore I wouldn't look there yet (not to say they probably don't need checking) since you just need to return it to running condition as it were before.

Let us know what you find.

Ernie A
Milwaukie, OR
Member: MOA, AMA, IBA, NRA, MERA
GS911 & GS911 Wifi - Diagnostics Tools Available
2012 K16GTL (3/2018 to present) 68k (Totaled! 8/11/19 Deer strike)
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post #46 of 60 Old Aug 28th, 2013, 12:18 am Thread Starter
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Thank you Ernie A (...and others)...

Tonight I checked the valves just as a good maintenance action, I was surprised how well they have held up after so many miles. The intakes were all .006-.007 the exhausts were all .010-.011. So nice...no need to deal with the bucket shims.

Also, Dean Woosley, looks like I got the water sensor wiring and engine sensor wiring back on correctly...but great comment. Those could have been swapped. I see the potential.

Ernie -- answers to your questions.....

POWER COMMANDER - unit is hard soldered into the electrical harness. I wouldn't know how to remove it and restore it back to original configuration. I did talk to Power Commander Technical Service and they said no problem having the power removed for extended periods of time. Loosing the mapping is not an issue with their product. Good thought though.

TPS Reset -- has been done properly a handful of times now.

THROTTLE BODY -- everything is tight with no vacuum leaks and idle is perfect.

FUEL FILTER -- was replaced in a way where the arrow is directed away from the pump...just like the YouTube Videos.

WATER TEMP SENSOR -- was removed to drain and flush the coolant system.

O2 Sensor -- was removed along with the exhaust when I was removing the transmission / clutch to do the o-ring replacement in the clutch housing.

NEW INFORMATION -- this could be a substantial lead to the loss of power problem. As I had mentioned in a post earlier today, I had replaced the spark plugs with new NGK Iridiums. I probably drove less than 10 blocks before the bike's seizure. I pulled the plugs tonight to do the valve clearance check and was surprised to find plugs from cylinders #2, #3 looked new while the plugs from #1, #4 look terrible - black! Because there is a dual coil I understand that 1 / 4 are firing together and 2 / 3 are firing together. I pulled the coil (ambient temperature) and measured the resistance in the primary and secondary - both are perfectly on spec. I don't know if the coil may be breaking down under temperature, or if the signal from the Moltronic is getting a bad input, if the Moltronic is going bad, or if there is a flawed connection. This seems difficult to trouble shoot with out an expensive trial and error sequence.

How should I proceed? If it possible to heat the coil up in an oven say 300 degrees (wife will love that) and measure the resistance on primary / secondary? Should I try unhooking sensors one at a time? The contacts on the connectors look fine and I will use contact cleaner before I put it back together again.

I am still biased that temperature could be the trigger of failure.
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post #47 of 60 Old Aug 28th, 2013, 2:21 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Did you ever check the fuel rail pressure? It should be about 51 PSI. Also, check your fuel for quality and hopefully lack of contamination.


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post #48 of 60 Old Aug 28th, 2013, 5:34 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokn
Thank you Ernie A (...and others)...

Tonight I checked the valves just as a good maintenance action, I was surprised how well they have held up after so many miles. The intakes were all .006-.007 the exhausts were all .010-.011. So nice...no need to deal with the bucket shims.

Also, Dean Woosley, looks like I got the water sensor wiring and engine sensor wiring back on correctly...but great comment. Those could have been swapped. I see the potential.

Ernie -- answers to your questions.....

POWER COMMANDER - unit is hard soldered into the electrical harness. I wouldn't know how to remove it and restore it back to original configuration. I did talk to Power Commander Technical Service and they said no problem having the power removed for extended periods of time. Loosing the mapping is not an issue with their product. Good thought though.

TPS Reset -- has been done properly a handful of times now.

THROTTLE BODY -- everything is tight with no vacuum leaks and idle is perfect.

FUEL FILTER -- was replaced in a way where the arrow is directed away from the pump...just like the YouTube Videos.

WATER TEMP SENSOR -- was removed to drain and flush the coolant system.

O2 Sensor -- was removed along with the exhaust when I was removing the transmission / clutch to do the o-ring replacement in the clutch housing.

NEW INFORMATION -- this could be a substantial lead to the loss of power problem. As I had mentioned in a post earlier today, I had replaced the spark plugs with new NGK Iridiums. I probably drove less than 10 blocks before the bike's seizure. I pulled the plugs tonight to do the valve clearance check and was surprised to find plugs from cylinders #2, #3 looked new while the plugs from #1, #4 look terrible - black! Because there is a dual coil I understand that 1 / 4 are firing together and 2 / 3 are firing together. I pulled the coil (ambient temperature) and measured the resistance in the primary and secondary - both are perfectly on spec. I don't know if the coil may be breaking down under temperature, or if the signal from the Moltronic is getting a bad input, if the Moltronic is going bad, or if there is a flawed connection. This seems difficult to trouble shoot with out an expensive trial and error sequence.

How should I proceed? If it possible to heat the coil up in an oven say 300 degrees (wife will love that) and measure the resistance on primary / secondary? Should I try unhooking sensors one at a time? The contacts on the connectors look fine and I will use contact cleaner before I put it back together again.

I am still biased that temperature could be the trigger of failure.
Sounds like you really need a GS-911 to get a closer look at things or maybe a oscilloscope to look at the ignition pulses to the plugs.

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post #49 of 60 Old Aug 28th, 2013, 8:42 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

black would be extremely rich, would be wet with fuel if not firing, you could have a company that cleans and flow checks injectors test them, it's not expensive, they do not inject more fuel under load they inject for a longer period of time so may idle fine - just a thought

good that your valves are OK

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
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post #50 of 60 Old Aug 28th, 2013, 10:59 am
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Re: HELP Please - no power under load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Sounds like you really need a GS-911 to get a closer look at things or maybe a oscilloscope to look at the ignition pulses to the plugs.
I agree. Local dealer here charges $80 to put it on and get a diagnosis. Better than pulling all your hair out....

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