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post #1 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 3:50 pm Thread Starter
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Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

I just had Spiegler brake lines front and back installed on my 2000 LT due to leaking, deteriorated OEM lines. They work great. I came across the following old forum thread recently about the use of "steel" brake lines on my bike (the author of the thread suggests that the Spiegler brake lines fall into this category).(see thread):
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59701

The information contained in the thread indicates that a BMW 3/2003 Service Information
bulletin stated among other things the following:
"Integral ABS: Installation of steel-flex brake lines in wheel circuit is not allowed.
ABS-2: BMW does not approve of installation of steel-flex lines in wheel circuit".
(Maybe there is an update from BMW which I haven't seen?)

So of course I started thinking that my brake lines will last, but I'll destroy my ABS unit again, (replaced at 71,500 miles on Feb 11, 2012) (it seems it doesn't take much for the ABS to fail based on all the forum reports, and my personal experience) . I contacted Spiegler about this BMW 3/2003 bulletin. I would like to share their response of August 12, 2013 to me, so others like me will be able to take some comfort in knowing that my brake system is OK and will not self destruct as BMW would lead us to believe, (I apologize if this issue was previously addressed), here goes:

"Dear (Captain) Wayne,
That is absolutely not true. We have built literally thousands of kits for the LT's
alone they will not harm your ABS Unit, all of the new BMW's (ABS bikes included)
come with Stainless Steel lines. This is a new one never heard anyone make that
claim before. Regardless it is not true".
Brian Hart
Sales and Dealer Development
SPIEGLER PERFORMANCE PARTS

______________
Captain Wayne

Currently owned,
1966 R50
2000 K LT
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post #2 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 4:24 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

This topic has been floated about, however if my ABS II on my '00 fails I am sure it is not due to Spiegler lines but the fact that it was engineered to fail. Sorry, but I am seriously jaded on BMW ABS after all, every BMW bike in my family with ABS have all had that system fail at one point or another for various nonsense reasons. The BMW ABS system is designed to make money for the dealership.

I'm ready for it, bring on the hate

-Steve

2000 BMW K1200LT
2000 BMW R1200C
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post #3 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 6:09 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Hmmmm, from the fiche for a R1200GS
Stahl is Deutsch for Steel

FOR VEHICLES WITH I-ABS GENERATION 2 (CODE: X630A) :
01 34 32 7 705 650 STAHLFLEX BRAKE HOSE 0.15 1 $69.66


04 34 32 7 720 825 STAHLFLEX BRAKE HOSE 0.26 1 $116.00


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post #4 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 6:23 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Here is something that happened to me many years ago.
I put stainless steel spieglers on my toyota 4X4, part of the instructions say that the hose should not rub anywhere. Sure enough mine rubbed and at that spot the braid broke, and then immediatly the line burst. Not a nice feeling.
So without the steel braid the inner hose has no strength.
Once I resolved the problem, I absolutly loved them.
You can always run them inside of another rubber hose and be absolutly sure to be safe, all you lose is the cosmetic look.

Eric von Laue

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Keep the rubber side down
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post #5 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 7:16 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

My GS has 'em from the factory and my LT will have them next year (10th birthday present).

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
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Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #6 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Bobs BMW installs custom made SS braided brake lines by a vendor that makes them for themselves. If it would void any BMW warranty I doubt they would take on the liability of selling them and or installing them. They would have installed the Spieglers if I had wanted them to.

Installed Spieglers on my 2002 K1200LT. Great product and better feel of control.


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post #7 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 10:09 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Just because certain model BMWs use the the small teflon SS braided brake lines does
not mean you can put them on the LT.

The dynamics of the brake lines swelling and interaction with the ABS is of concern to the
BMW engineers, warranty/ service people and especially the lawyers. It would not be
prudent for BMW to approve anything other than stock replacement parts that were
designed and specified for the application.

Any discussion here is just opinion like this one!! It is true that Spiegler has sold
thousands of replacement lines but that does not make them experts in brakes - just brake lines!!

Dan Finazzo
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post #8 of 18 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 11:59 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Good post. In addition "never heard anyone make that claim before" is a bit disingenuous given existence of a BMW service bulletin since 2003.

Missing from at least the first few posts of the linked discussion is the likelihood that the required parameters for residual braking are a German requirement only and that it's likely this bulletin was not translated and sent to USA dealers. My mind simply giggles at the thought of a USA regulation related to something automotive and this sophisticated. This may explain why the Spiegler employee never heard of it. Best I can determine in any event is that Spiegler is strictly a USA company with a German sounding name. I researched this a bit and would have preferred German-made lines but didn't find any.

In addition in 2003 it not only would not be prudent for BMW to approve the lines it would require their testing of an aftermarket product and that's not financially in their favor.

Also, not sure when the technology arrived, but steel flex brake lines were illegal for USA road use until recently. IIRC they didn't get fitted by BMW until 2004-2005. Of course the technology that arrived was simply the ability to print DOT information on them.

And BTW and FWIW my dealer gladly installed Spieglers on my ABS2 equipped R1100S.

Kent Christensen
Albuquerque
'12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S

Last edited by lkchris; Aug 13th, 2013 at 12:43 am.
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post #9 of 18 Old Aug 17th, 2013, 7:06 am
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Have them on my 2000 LT without any problem what so ever. I think that is a BS.
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post #10 of 18 Old Aug 17th, 2013, 7:32 am
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinazzo
Just because certain model BMWs use the the small teflon SS braided brake lines does
not mean you can put them on the LT.

The dynamics of the brake lines swelling and interaction with the ABS is of concern to the
BMW engineers, warranty/ service people and especially the lawyers. It would not be
prudent for BMW to approve anything other than stock replacement parts that were
designed and specified for the application.

Any discussion here is just opinion like this one!! It is true that Spiegler has sold
thousands of replacement lines but that does not make them experts in brakes - just brake lines!!
I agree with Dan on this, I have read somewhere previously that the OEM hoses on the Integral ABS systems ('05 and later) have dynamics designed to interact specifically with the ABS system when it comes into play. This is not necessarily the case under normal braking situations, only in emergency situations, and I for one do not, ever, want to be compromised by some non-specified, fancy looking aftermarket brake hose. My logic tells me that the braking system engineers who designed the Integral ABS system knew a little more than some generic aftermarket supplier. This may not necessarily be the case with the ABS 2 systems and the earlier non power assisted systems. No fancy stainless braided brake hoses for this little black duck

Dennis
1987 Yamaha TY250R
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post #11 of 18 Old Aug 17th, 2013, 3:23 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Back to the original post where the bulletin was issued ONLY in Germany and the TUV has very strict rules about changing an accepted system or you violate your registration. I have not seen any evidence this bulletin was ever issued in the USA or Canada.

Based on the TUV rules in Germany my 05 with an after market HID would not pass inspection and could not be ridden on the road. How many of us have them on our bikes. I will be putting these on my bike next year. Besides residual braking is what you have when your ABS unit fails, I don't plan to ride it when it does.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #12 of 18 Old Aug 18th, 2013, 6:59 am
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

No engineer hear, but I can say this....since I put the Spieglers on this summer the performance and handling of my bike has improved greatly. No more grabby brakes, and no more worries about blowing one out away from home. Not to mention the cosmetic appeal they have vs the old rubber.

BMW 1200 LTC 2002


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post #13 of 18 Old Aug 19th, 2013, 5:49 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

When I put mine on last year @36k, my '05 had a huge compound bend in the front brake line. The hose was supposed to be straight and it was clearly ready to burst. IMO, OEM hoses are not up to the task of stopping this behemoth.

'15 GTLE


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post #14 of 18 Old Aug 20th, 2013, 10:45 am
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Just installed a Spiegler kit on a 2002.

On the ride home last week my front brake lever became "spongy".
At stops the lever would continue backward toward the grip... not good.
The rear brakes were functioning normally.

Got home safely and parked it for the evening. The next day I began the investigation.
I hopped on the bike and started walking it out of the garage, pulled the lever and it went to the grip.


Turned on the key and tried it again. The brakes locked solid as if I had pulled into a puddle of superglue. The hose must have collapsed internally at that point keeping pressure in the system.


I began tracing the lines for the front brake.
The hose from the front handlebar master cylinder had a hole and was leaking about 1" from the steering head connection to the hard line.
Upon dissection of the offending line I found the inner hose to be disintegrating. Rolling a piece of the hose between your fingers would turn it into a smear of black goo.

I made the decision to replace all the stock lines on the bike, age of bike as well as the line failure made the decision easy.
This site has been a godsend of great information on the bleeding procedure. It is not as daunting or difficult as it is made out to be. More on that in a minute.

I ordered the Spiegler kit direct and they had it to me the NEXT day.
It was well labeled, included all the crush washers and a tool to change the indexing of the ends.
I did not need to adjust the ends at all they all fit perfectly right out of the box.
There were no problems with fitment of the kit, no modification of the stock hanging hardware or brackets were needed.

I replaced the lines wet, filled the reservoirs and let gravity fill the lines and push out the extra air or any possible contamination as I installed the banjo bolts. Messy, but I believe helpful. Keep plenty of cans of break cleaner on hand.

Following the instruction found elsewhere on this site I dove into the bleed procedure, again a pretty straight forward job.
The front control circuit had a "bunch" of crud in it. Looked like pepper flecks, I believe it was the particulate matter from the disintegrating brake line.
I used about 2 quarts of Dot 4 and performed the bleed procedure no less than half a dozen times on that circuit to get all of that junk out.
The back control circuit change was a carbon copy of the front with the positive exception of not dealing with the rubber particles in the system or needing nearly as many bleeds.

I cut the other stock lines open when I was done. None seemed to have the problem of the failed line.
I don't have an explanation for the bad line, the rubber was horribly degraded.

The brakes feel great now, very solid and nothing weird or unexpected while riding.
The lines (what you can see of them) look beautiful.
The added peace of mind I have now is well worth the moderate price $250 for the Spiegler kit.

2002 K1200LT-E

Last edited by printcraft; Aug 20th, 2013 at 11:10 am.
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post #15 of 18 Old Aug 20th, 2013, 7:10 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by printcraft
Just installed a Spiegler kit on a 2002.

On the ride home last week my front brake lever became "spongy".
At stops the lever would continue backward toward the grip... not good.
The rear brakes were functioning normally.

Got home safely and parked it for the evening. The next day I began the investigation.
I hopped on the bike and started walking it out of the garage, pulled the lever and it went to the grip.


Turned on the key and tried it again. The brakes locked solid as if I had pulled into a puddle of superglue. The hose must have collapsed internally at that point keeping pressure in the system.


I began tracing the lines for the front brake.
The hose from the front handlebar master cylinder had a hole and was leaking about 1" from the steering head connection to the hard line.
Upon dissection of the offending line I found the inner hose to be disintegrating. Rolling a piece of the hose between your fingers would turn it into a smear of black goo.

I made the decision to replace all the stock lines on the bike, age of bike as well as the line failure made the decision easy.
This site has been a godsend of great information on the bleeding procedure. It is not as daunting or difficult as it is made out to be. More on that in a minute.

I ordered the Spiegler kit direct and they had it to me the NEXT day.
It was well labeled, included all the crush washers and a tool to change the indexing of the ends.
I did not need to adjust the ends at all they all fit perfectly right out of the box.
There were no problems with fitment of the kit, no modification of the stock hanging hardware or brackets were needed.

I replaced the lines wet, filled the reservoirs and let gravity fill the lines and push out the extra air or any possible contamination as I installed the banjo bolts. Messy, but I believe helpful. Keep plenty of cans of break cleaner on hand.

Following the instruction found elsewhere on this site I dove into the bleed procedure, again a pretty straight forward job.
The front control circuit had a "bunch" of crud in it. Looked like pepper flecks, I believe it was the particulate matter from the disintegrating brake line.
I used about 2 quarts of Dot 4 and performed the bleed procedure no less than half a dozen times on that circuit to get all of that junk out.
The back control circuit change was a carbon copy of the front with the positive exception of not dealing with the rubber particles in the system or needing nearly as many bleeds.

I cut the other stock lines open when I was done. None seemed to have the problem of the failed line.
I don't have an explanation for the bad line, the rubber was horribly degraded.

The brakes feel great now, very solid and nothing weird or unexpected while riding.
The lines (what you can see of them) look beautiful.
The added peace of mind I have now is well worth the moderate price $250 for the Spiegler kit.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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post #16 of 18 Old Aug 21st, 2013, 11:32 am
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
:

Sorry! I didn't take picts of the change out.

Here are some afterward glamor shots.







I hope I made the insane zip tie guy that works for BMW proud.

2002 K1200LT-E
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post #17 of 18 Old Aug 21st, 2013, 1:58 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Pics look good. How much Tupperware did you have to remove?

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post #18 of 18 Old Aug 21st, 2013, 3:00 pm
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Re: Spiegler Brake Lines Verboten per BMW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Pics look good. How much Tupperware did you have to remove?

Both main side faring panels, lower faring, left and right mid panels (battery area) and the rear seat. I had to remove the battery to reach the bleeder on the inside edge of the integral unit.
Also, the right top of the handlebar trim, and the control block on the grip to be able to rotate the master cylinder up enough to remove and install the new line.

I did not need to take the nose faring or stingray off.
You can reach up from the bottom easily to reach the steering head line connection.

2002 K1200LT-E

Last edited by printcraft; Aug 21st, 2013 at 3:06 pm.
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