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post #1 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 9:00 am Thread Starter
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Winter project now determined

Well, the legendary BMW quality strikes again. On my first long ride after rebuilding the FD, I pulled out to pass a car and opened the throttle in 5th gear (had lots of time so not in a really big hurry) and things just didnít feel and sound right. I looked at the tach and the RPM was heading towards 6,000 and the speed was not heading towards the corresponding 120 MPH. So, looks like time to start studying and gathering parts and tools for a substantial winter project. I am hoping the clutch will last through the summer at least and it appears from past experience by other forum members, that this is at least probable.

I suspect the clutch is oil contaminated and not worn. I have driven standard shift for 40 years and know how to use a clutch properly and all of my 4 wheel vehicles have run well over 100,000 on their original clutches. Iíve actually never yet worn one out as I generally trade the vehicle by 150,000 or it rusts out and wonít pass state inspection. And I noticed oil seeping from under the engine and from the FD boot shortly after the BMW dealer put synthetic lube in both tranny and FD at the 18K service. I am a synthetic fan and have run it since the late 70s, but I have had a couple of vehicles (79 Chevette was the first) that just leaked like a sieve with synthetic lubes. No idea why, but my LT seemed to do the same. Canít believe both ends would start leaking simultaneously otherwise. After replacing the pinion seal, I know that the rear tranny seal is sound so it is either the front leaking or the rear main seal. Since the smell is still of gear oil even with the FD fixed, I suspect the transmission input seal.

So, time to start studying the manuals and order tools and parts. I know this site has a lot of useful information in this regard, just need to track it all down! Fun, funÖ After 6 years of owning an LT, I think BMW should give us all an honorary Master Technician certificate!



2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #2 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 1:38 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

I found everything I needed to do my clutch here on the forum. Pay particular attention to the aftermarket "O" ring you need, and the depth to which you seat the new seals. Other than that, I think it's pretty straight forward, just time consuming. Hopefully you have a lift to work from. MUCH easier.
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post #3 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 1:48 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

FWIW my clutch was very close to the wear limit @ 40 k ( slipped her too much pulling a trailer). Not oil soaked but the dust in the bell housing was damp with the tranny side dry. In my 78 Subaru the clutch was slipping @ 98 k but I drove on from LA to SF and changed it at by sisters house. I went through 5 clutches in 13 years on my 75 MGB ( mostly due to throw out bearings ). The LT clutch started a 5th gear slip in June that year and I drove it until December before I changed it.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #4 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 2:24 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

When you drain the transmission pay attention to the magnetic drain plug. Mine was full of fine fuzz. Upon disassembly I found that the bearing on the input shaft was totally shot.
Also the O-ring on the engine side was shredded to pieces and I didn't even know what it was at first until I posted a pic on the forum and someone identified it for me. I bought a Viton o-ring as a replacement as suggested.
As usual John Z. was a big help!
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Gilles & Kathy
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post #5 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 4:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
I found everything I needed to do my clutch here on the forum. Pay particular attention to the aftermarket "O" ring you need, and the depth to which you seat the new seals. Other than that, I think it's pretty straight forward, just time consuming. Hopefully you have a lift to work from. MUCH easier.
I don't have a lift yet, but that will be my first addition. Many here seem to have had good luck with the HF lift and the price is right. I like the Kendon for its better access, but you pay a hefty price for that.

Yes,I have seen most of the requisite information here over the years. Just have to track it all down!

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #6 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 4:56 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg
When you drain the transmission pay attention to the magnetic drain plug. Mine was full of fine fuzz. Upon disassembly I found that the bearing on the input shaft was totally shot.
Also the O-ring on the engine side was shredded to pieces and I didn't even know what it was at first until I posted a pic on the forum and someone identified it for me. I bought a Viton o-ring as a replacement as suggested.
As usual John Z. was a big help!
Yes, I have been following your saga. I also have John's weep hole videos and will watch them again before starting. I think I also need the clutch alignment tool and the rods to use as guides when removing the tranny. Although, I am not yet sure why a jack on wheels wouldn't work as it does with cars and trucks.

I have done similar repairs on cars and trucks before, just not on an LT.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #7 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 5:09 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

HF worked well for me.
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post #8 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 8:17 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
I found everything I needed to do my clutch here on the forum. Pay particular attention to the aftermarket "O" ring you need, and the depth to which you seat the new seals. Other than that, I think it's pretty straight forward, just time consuming. Hopefully you have a lift to work from. MUCH easier.
I searched the files section and downloaded the parts list and rear main procedure from BlauBeeMr. What other files or references did you use?

Did you need to remove all of the parts that the Clymer manual says? Exhaust, Fuel tank, etc.? I thought I had seen posts in years past that said you could remove less than the manuals say, but maybe it is just easier to get everything out of the way.

Which special tools did you need? The align tool and bridge? The locking bar? Anything else?

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #9 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 8:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
HF worked well for me.
Looks like your picture just answered the question I just posted about what parts you had to remove. Looks like you removed pretty much everything!

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
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post #10 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 9:12 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

A lift is nice but I did my clutch job before I got mine. I also pulled the throttle bodies with the air box still on just to make sure I could tilt the engine/tranny down without interference. It helps to replace the two front mount bolts it some long 1/4 bolts. The smaller bolts let you swing the assembly side ways which helps clear the frame.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #11 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 9:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
A lift is nice but I did my clutch job before I got mine. I also pulled the throttle bodies with the air box still on just to make sure I could tilt the engine/tranny down without interference. It helps to replace the two front mount bolts it some long 1/4 bolts. The smaller bolts let you swing the assembly side ways which helps clear the frame.
I have read through the CM, the BlauBeeMr file and I found the thread where you chronicled your work. Looks like it will be an interesting project to say the least. I will probably start at Thanksgiving when most of the riding season here in PA is behind me. And that will give me a few weeks to order parts so I can finish at Christmas when I have a little more time off.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #12 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 10:21 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

John Z - not to hi-jack the Winter Project thread, but what type of handlebar mirrors do you have mounted on your bike? Thanks!
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post #13 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 10:34 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

I too did the clutch job last year. Not difficult but I recommend that you place each sub assembly in a baggie and mark it with a sharpie. There are a lot of little parts that come off.

For the alignment rods I got a couple of bolts that therad into the intermediate case and cut the heads off. Lined the trans up then unthreaded my "alignment pegs " out by hand. For the locking bar, I cut down a piece of angle iron I had laying around. the corner fit into a recess in the case and I drilled two holes to bolt the angle iron onto the clutch pack in order to get the main nut off. Good luck!

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post #14 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 10:48 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by Family_fun
I too did the clutch job last year. Not difficult but I recommend that you place each sub assembly in a baggie and mark it with a sharpie. There are a lot of little parts that come off.

For the alignment rods I got a couple of bolts that therad into the intermediate case and cut the heads off. Lined the trans up then unthreaded my "alignment pegs " out by hand. For the locking bar, I cut down a piece of angle iron I had laying around. the corner fit into a recess in the case and I drilled two holes to bolt the angle iron onto the clutch pack in order to get the main nut off. Good luck!
Do you recall the bolt size and pitch? How long of a "peg" is required?

Thanks!

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #15 of 28 Old Aug 11th, 2013, 11:24 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

"I too did the clutch job last year. Not difficult but I recommend that you place each sub assembly in a baggie and mark it with a sharpie. There are a lot of little parts that come off. "
Good advise - and take lots of pictures as you go. Really helps when you put it back together.

"I also pulled the throttle bodies with the air box still on just to make sure I could tilt the engine/tranny down without interference."
Also great advise. I can assure you that those little puppies CAN and WILL hold the engine up!
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post #16 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 6:24 am Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
"I too did the clutch job last year. Not difficult but I recommend that you place each sub assembly in a baggie and mark it with a sharpie. There are a lot of little parts that come off. "
Good advise - and take lots of pictures as you go. Really helps when you put it back together.

"I also pulled the throttle bodies with the air box still on just to make sure I could tilt the engine/tranny down without interference."
Also great advise. I can assure you that those little puppies CAN and WILL hold the engine up!
For a couple of years now I've had a severe hesitation/sag when starting out, so pulling air box and TBs will offer a good chance to look for vacuum leaks. I may replace the O2 sensor also even though it looks OK on the GS-911. Not sure what else to look at as all sensor readings look good on the tool and no codes have ever set. Something is wrong that is under the radar.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
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post #17 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 1:28 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNW003
John Z - not to hi-jack the Winter Project thread, but what type of handlebar mirrors do you have mounted on your bike? Thanks!
They are stock RS mirrors.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #18 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 1:34 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

From an earlier post:

The 80 mm long headless M8 (course thread) made the tranny removal a nice glide off and will help in installation.

I even had a guy ask me where I found the "headless" bolts.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #19 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 3:34 pm
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Thumbs up Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
I even had a guy ask me where I found the "headless" bolts.
At your nearest angle grinder shop?

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
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2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #20 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 7:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
From an earlier post:

The 80 mm long headless M8 (course thread) made the tranny removal a nice glide off and will help in installation.

I even had a guy ask me where I found the "headless" bolts.
Did you cut a slot in the end for a screw driver or do they turn in and out OK without that?

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #21 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 7:27 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

Yeah I put a slot in them, just makes it easier. A couple of other notes to tuck away for the job.

1. Do not slide the switch assembly off the reverse shaft, just unplug the connector and remove it in one piece. The little tits on the micro switches are very easy to snap off then when you get it all back together it will not start.

2. Remove the line (black 10 mm) from the starter at the tie point (left side) behind the battery before you start dropping the engine/tranny assembly. Too hard to get to the other end until you drop it. Remember this in reverse for assembly.

3. You will know when you have enough clearance to start undoing the alternator wiring after you have dropped down the E/T assy a little bit. Not much room to do it nor slack in the wires.

4. Before you put the transmission back on make sure the one 5 mm allen holding the starter on it is tight (it is the ground return for the starter).

Have fun most of all!

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #22 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 7:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
Yeah I put a slot in them, just makes it easier. A couple of other notes to tuck away for the job.

1. Do not slide the switch assembly off the reverse shaft, just unplug the connector and remove it in one piece. The little tits on the micro switches are very easy to snap off then when you get it all back together it will not start.

2. Remove the line (black 10 mm) from the starter at the tie point (left side) behind the battery before you start dropping the engine/tranny assembly. Too hard to get to the other end until you drop it. Remember this in reverse for assembly.

3. You will know when you have enough clearance to start undoing the alternator wiring after you have dropped down the E/T assy a little bit. Not much room to do it nor slack in the wires.

4. Before you put the transmission back on make sure the one 5 mm allen holding the starter on it is tight (it is the ground return for the starter).

Have fun most of all!
I am sure it will be a hoot. Haven't been in this deep since repairing the transmission in a JD450. At least the LT parts don't require a hoist to move around!

I am about to order one of ErnieA's alignment tools. Looks pretty slick. Then got to make a lift decision and then small tools like these guides and the bar I hold the clutch while loosening the large nut.

Any other tools that might be handy? Did you replace your rear main, input shaft or any other seals? How about slave cylinder?

I generally use the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it philosophy", but given the extent of this disassembly, I am trying to decide what to replace proactively. Things like starter parts, slave cylinder, clutch hoses, etc.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #23 of 28 Old Aug 12th, 2013, 10:06 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

I replaced the rear main (but it really looked OK). Make sure you have a good tool to drive it home. Mine was not big enough and I got it cocked and the only way to pull it back out destroys it. Caused a quick 4 hour round trip to Nashville and I bought two this time.

The biggie is the 19x4 mm output shaft o-ring. It will be brittle and you will have a hard time pulling the clutch housing until you get the bits of it out. Be sure and replace it with a Viton one. Slave was already replaced @ 18 K during a warranty repair on the tranny output seal. It wasn't leaking but I had them go ahead and change it. Still dry @ 40 K when I did the clutch. My rule on shaft seals is if it ain't leaking don't mess with it. If you have more than (or close to) 60 K on the slave not a bad idea to replace it.

Starter is pretty robust. Hoses on the slave would be good as they tend to get rusty.

Input shaft was solid and no evidence of seal leakage so I left them all alone. I guess I don't remember what year your's is and how many miles.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #24 of 28 Old Aug 13th, 2013, 6:38 am Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
I replaced the rear main (but it really looked OK). Make sure you have a good tool to drive it home. Mine was not big enough and I got it cocked and the only way to pull it back out destroys it. Caused a quick 4 hour round trip to Nashville and I bought two this time.

The biggie is the 19x4 mm output shaft o-ring. It will be brittle and you will have a hard time pulling the clutch housing until you get the bits of it out. Be sure and replace it with a Viton one. Slave was already replaced @ 18 K during a warranty repair on the tranny output seal. It wasn't leaking but I had them go ahead and change it. Still dry @ 40 K when I did the clutch. My rule on shaft seals is if it ain't leaking don't mess with it. If you have more than (or close to) 60 K on the slave not a bad idea to replace it.

Starter is pretty robust. Hoses on the slave would be good as they tend to get rusty.

Input shaft was solid and no evidence of seal leakage so I left them all alone. I guess I don't remember what year your's is and how many miles.
2007 with 38,000. Hopefully, closer to 40K when it comes apart this winter.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #25 of 28 Old Aug 13th, 2013, 10:04 am Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
From an earlier post:

The 80 mm long headless M8 (course thread) made the tranny removal a nice glide off and will help in installation.

I even had a guy ask me where I found the "headless" bolts.
Something like this?
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2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #26 of 28 Old Aug 13th, 2013, 10:20 am
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Re: Winter project now determined

I like following these threads to help prepare me for when my time comes, although it's more fun to watch from the sidelines then be up to my elbows in it!

Jim
2003 BMW K1200LT (my favorite 2 wheeled land yacht)
2008 Yamaha FJR1300 (recent addition)
1982 Yamaha Vision (long gone)
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post #27 of 28 Old Aug 13th, 2013, 10:29 am Thread Starter
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_McG
I like following these threads to help prepare me for when my time comes, although it's more fun to watch from the sidelines then be up to my elbows in it!
I agree with you! I have been reading here for 5 years or so and once my LT got near 30K miles it started failing systematically. First a bad sag when starting out (still unsolved), then pinion seal (FD just rebuilt) and now an oil leak that got the clutch. I'd much rather be on the sidelines. If I could sell my LT, I would be on the sidelines. However, I can't sell it in this condition without losing my shirt.

So, got to suck it up and tear into it.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #28 of 28 Old Aug 13th, 2013, 10:35 pm
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Re: Winter project now determined

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Something like this?
Looks like it was closer to 88 mm long
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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