Odd brake system and cruise control behavior - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 35 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 3:12 am Thread Starter
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Question Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

I've noticed some things lately.

Sometimes I get a flashing "brake system failure" light after a stop. But I don't notice anything unusual in the feel or power of the brakes. Nor am I stopping hard enough to get into the ABS. It keeps flashing until I shut down and re-start the engine. What's up?

Secondly, the cruise control tends to cancel itself if I hit a sharp bump. Not much of a bump, either. And it STAYS off until I turn off the engine and re-start. (Sometimes it'll come back to life after several miles, but usually it stays "gone.") Is there some kind of gravity switch at play here? If so....HOW DO I BYPASS IT? It's obnoxious. I doubt it's any of the micro-switches because jiggling the handles and pedals doesn't fix it. And it it were a micro-switch hanging up it wouldn't be cured by a re-start.
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post #2 of 35 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 9:15 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsko
I've noticed some things lately.

Sometimes I get a flashing "brake system failure" light after a stop. But I don't notice anything unusual in the feel or power of the brakes. Nor am I stopping hard enough to get into the ABS. It keeps flashing until I shut down and re-start the engine. What's up?

Secondly, the cruise control tends to cancel itself if I hit a sharp bump. Not much of a bump, either. And it STAYS off until I turn off the engine and re-start. (Sometimes it'll come back to life after several miles, but usually it stays "gone.") Is there some kind of gravity switch at play here? If so....HOW DO I BYPASS IT? It's obnoxious. I doubt it's any of the micro-switches because jiggling the handles and pedals doesn't fix it. And it it were a micro-switch hanging up it wouldn't be cured by a re-start.
Eric,
What year bike, knowing that will help point the experts to the most likely list.

John Baker

2005 BMW K1200LT
1979 Suzuki GS1000E
1978 Honda CB350
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post #3 of 35 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 9:50 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

[QUOTE=Bitsko]I've noticed some things lately.

Sometimes I get a flashing "brake system failure" light after a stop. But I don't notice anything unusual in the feel or power of the brakes. Nor am I stopping hard enough to get into the ABS. It keeps flashing until I shut down and re-start the engine. What's up?

[/QUOTE/]
My guess on the brakes is that your reservoirs need topping off. Mine will do this sometimes even if it gets about a tea spoon low.

BMW 1200 LTC 2002


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post #4 of 35 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 6:48 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Like John said we need to know the year to effectively trouble shoot this as there are three different configurations. OK I checked your other posts and you have an 05. These do not usually fall prey to the low fluid flashing issue unless your pads are just about worn out. It is also usually not cleared by a key off key on issue.

If the ABS warning light is the only one on and flashing fast then you have a partial system failure. If it is flashing slow then it thinks you have not completed the roll away test. Not usually seen after driving a while.

This failure could also be causing the cruise to trip off and stay off. Best to either find some one with a GS-911 unit or the dealer to have the fault codes read out from the ABS controller. There was another fellow recently that had this same issue but I don't recall the fix. His was intermittent.

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Last edited by jzeiler; Aug 9th, 2013 at 6:57 pm.
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post #5 of 35 Old Aug 10th, 2013, 2:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Yes, it's an '05. I'll check the reservoir levels, but it had the 24K service completed this spring. The pads are all thick, so that's certainly not the issue.

It's not an "ABS" light. It's the "Brake System Failure" light. And it happens after at least several miles of riding, with no warnings or lights, so the drive-off test must be complete. It keeps flashing (or the cruise remains disabled, without a warning light) until I re-start the engine.

No loss of braking performance that I can tell. Don't know if the ABS is functional or not during one of these episodes. I've never used the ABS, and hope to avoid doing so.
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post #6 of 35 Old Aug 10th, 2013, 2:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

I need to get a GS-911. I had a similar tool back when I owned a Volkswagen. It was invaluable for a do-it-yourselfer.

One of my biggest worries about owning a BMW bike is the complexity of the electronics. But I have enough experience with this sort of thing to know that it's just a matter of having the right gadget, and internet access. At the end of the day it's still just a motorcycle. It's possible to figure out just about anything. (And I'll bet you're more likely to figure it out yourself than the dealer mechanic, which was certainly the case with VW.)
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post #7 of 35 Old Aug 10th, 2013, 3:48 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsko
Yes, it's an '05. I'll check the reservoir levels, but it had the 24K service completed this spring. The pads are all thick, so that's certainly not the issue.

It's not an "ABS" light. It's the "Brake System Failure" light. And it happens after at least several miles of riding, with no warnings or lights, so the drive-off test must be complete. It keeps flashing (or the cruise remains disabled, without a warning light) until I re-start the engine.

No loss of braking performance that I can tell. Don't know if the ABS is functional or not during one of these episodes. I've never used the ABS, and hope to avoid doing so.
OK, I think we are running in circles here because of terminology:

1) On a 2005 or later, one dash warnings contains the text "Brake failure" , BUT the SAME owner's manual keep referring to this as the "ABS Warning" light. In previous version (1999-2004) it was just a RED square marked ABS.

2) On a 2005 or later, the 2nd warning used by the ABS system is a triangle and is called "General Warning". In previous version (1999-2004) this warning had the same triangle shape.

So BACK TO YOUR PROBLEM - see attached image for all possible warning sequences on your bike:
If I understand correctly your text above, the fault that you see is either:

A) 2nd row in the image: ABS warnings flashes SLOW -AND- the triangle is OFF

B) 3rd row in the image: ABS warnings flashes FAST -AND- the triangle is OFF

NOTE: SLOW is "1 flash per second" and FAST is "4 flashes per second".
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post #8 of 35 Old Jan 23rd, 2014, 6:29 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

hi guys. i have a 2002 Lt. i have a similar issue (well not exactly). my cruise control is acting up. sometimes it will come on as required and work well. then other times it just wont come on. this problem started after i took off the foot brake peg mount on the right hand side. i noticed there is a switch there. i have taken a look at the switch and made sure i fitted everything back in place as i found them. now when it does work and i deactivate it using the other modes its ok, i am able to reactivate it. but when i deactivate it using the foot brake, i cant get it to work again. i just took a long trip a week ago and it completely refused to activate. the little red light on the handle bar switch does come on but the orange light that shows the cruise is on wont.
help!
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post #9 of 35 Old Jan 23rd, 2014, 6:55 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dass View Post
hi guys. i have a 2002 Lt. i have a similar issue (well not exactly). my cruise control is acting up. sometimes it will come on as required and work well. then other times it just wont come on. this problem started after i took off the foot brake peg mount on the right hand side. i noticed there is a switch there. i have taken a look at the switch and made sure i fitted everything back in place as i found them. now when it does work and i deactivate it using the other modes its ok, i am able to reactivate it. but when i deactivate it using the foot brake, i cant get it to work again. i just took a long trip a week ago and it completely refused to activate. the little red light on the handle bar switch does come on but the orange light that shows the cruise is on wont.
help!
That switch on the right footplate is brake light switch. Same switch cancels of course the cruise. My wild guess is that the adjustment of the switch is kinda "tight" and when you press rear brake pedal the switch "stays on" (and of course the brake light). Have you checked the functionality of the brake light? So that it comes on / off and does not remain "hanging on" after pressing the pedal.

There is also the complete cruise control test procedure available in this site. It should be able to point you at the edge of the problem..... Just a minute...

Here You are:

The engine is NOT running during this procedure.
Begin the diagnostic with the bike on the centerstand and the ignition OFF.
1. Switch the cruise-control ON (slide to the right). Press forward and hold in the SET
position, then turn the ignition ON (after a few seconds, the SET light will be ON).
Release the SET button (SET light should now be OFF).
2. Press the set button down to the RESET position (light ON). Release the RESET button
(light OFF).
3. Slide the cruise switch to the left (light ON). Slide the cruise switch to the right (light
OFF).
4. Rotate and close the throttle full-forward (light ON). Open the throttle slightly and
release (light OFF).
5. Pull in the clutch lever (light ON). Release the clutch lever (light OFF).
6. Pull in the front brake lever (light ON). Release the front brake lever (light OFF).
7. Press the rear brake pedal (light ON), hold for 5 seconds (light should go OFF).
Release the rear brake pedal (light ON).
8. With the bike still on the centerstand, rotate the rear wheel (light flashes ON/OFF).
9. Switch the ignition OFF. This is the end of the cruise diagnostic.

Born to be wild so why not

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post #10 of 35 Old Jan 23rd, 2014, 6:56 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dass View Post
hi guys. i have a 2002 Lt. i have a similar issue (well not exactly). my cruise control is acting up. sometimes it will come on as required and work well. then other times it just wont come on. this problem started after i took off the foot brake peg mount on the right hand side. i noticed there is a switch there. i have taken a look at the switch and made sure i fitted everything back in place as i found them. now when it does work and i deactivate it using the other modes its ok, i am able to reactivate it. but when i deactivate it using the foot brake, i cant get it to work again. i just took a long trip a week ago and it completely refused to activate. the little red light on the handle bar switch does come on but the orange light that shows the cruise is on wont.
help!
Steve,
If your brake switch is activated or stuck ON while riding, the cruise-control will dis-engage. Also, the clutch switch is often causing problems with age - can be seen when touching or hitting a bump.

There is help to help you troubleshoot this system: a video tutorial and a PDF file.
See this thread: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61130
__________________

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post #11 of 35 Old Jan 23rd, 2014, 11:26 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

To properly adjust the rear brake light switch it should move the peddle this far before the light comes on. You can hear the micro switch click.
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2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #12 of 35 Old Jan 23rd, 2014, 12:16 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

I had a couple of similar problems with the cruise on my '02. The first was particularly puzzling and turned out to be the easiest to fix--a loose battery ground cable. Not only would the cc turn off, but other electrical systems were erratic as well. The second time the problem was a maladjusted clutch micro switch, but that only affected the cruise.

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post #13 of 35 Old Jan 23rd, 2014, 8:26 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Hey jzeiler, I know on mine there is a separate speed sensor and on his it uses the ABS sensor to tell the brain what speed to indicate on the dash.

My question is which ABS sensor is used for the speedometer and is the same one used for the cruise control on his bike?

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post #14 of 35 Old Jan 24th, 2014, 1:29 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centaurious View Post
Hey jzeiler, I know on mine there is a separate speed sensor and on his it uses the ABS sensor to tell the brain what speed to indicate on the dash.

My question is which ABS sensor is used for the speedometer and is the same one used for the cruise control on his bike?

For the 05 it is the rear ABS sensor and it is processed inside the ABS before it gets sent to the dash (Speed Signal). This signal is also used for the cruise control.

On yours it is separate so no connection with the ABS at all.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #15 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 8:56 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-A-D View Post
That switch on the right footplate is brake light switch. Same switch cancels of course the cruise. My wild guess is that the adjustment of the switch is kinda "tight" and when you press rear brake pedal the switch "stays on" (and of course the brake light). Have you checked the functionality of the brake light? So that it comes on / off and does not remain "hanging on" after pressing the pedal.

There is also the complete cruise control test procedure available in this site. It should be able to point you at the edge of the problem..... Just a minute...

Here You are:

The engine is NOT running during this procedure.
Begin the diagnostic with the bike on the centerstand and the ignition OFF.
1. Switch the cruise-control ON (slide to the right). Press forward and hold in the SET
position, then turn the ignition ON (after a few seconds, the SET light will be ON).
Release the SET button (SET light should now be OFF).
2. Press the set button down to the RESET position (light ON). Release the RESET button
(light OFF).
3. Slide the cruise switch to the left (light ON). Slide the cruise switch to the right (light
OFF).
4. Rotate and close the throttle full-forward (light ON). Open the throttle slightly and
release (light OFF).
5. Pull in the clutch lever (light ON). Release the clutch lever (light OFF).
6. Pull in the front brake lever (light ON). Release the front brake lever (light OFF).
7. Press the rear brake pedal (light ON), hold for 5 seconds (light should go OFF).
Release the rear brake pedal (light ON).
8. With the bike still on the centerstand, rotate the rear wheel (light flashes ON/OFF).
9. Switch the ignition OFF. This is the end of the cruise diagnostic.

I appreciate that this is an old thread, but the issue I have is very similar to this ......

LT 2005 version, 26k miles.
Cruise control work fine out on the road.

From driving off, the self diagnostic runs and all the relevant warning lights extinguish.

Brakes feel great - but - if I use only the front brake, the issue doesn't appear - but if I use the rear brake (either alone or in conjunction with the front brake), the 'general warning' lamp lights up.

The manual states that either there's a bulb blown (not so) or the cruise control is unavailable (but as stated this is not the case).

I followed the cruise control diagnostic check list and it failed at step 8 (rotate rear wheel - light flashes on/off) - the light didn't flash, it remained solid.

Can anybody advise what that means? My bike is still under warranty and it'd be good to advise the dealer of what the issue is likely to be.

Confused.

Mick

Last edited by Mick R 535; Oct 5th, 2017 at 9:12 am.
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post #16 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 10:11 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

FWIW I have never been able to get my 05 to do the "rotate rear wheel and light flashes step" so it may not be an issue. The bulb to check is the center bulb in the taillight assembly. It should be a single filament incandescent. Anything else will throw the general warning light fault.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #17 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 11:27 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Hi again

The centre bulb is working fine - it is a double filament fitting - the OEM bulb holder only accepts a double filament bulb.
That said, I did manage to squeeze a single filament in - but the results were the same.

I then fitted a 'non canbus' bulb - and the 'general warning' indicator was on permanently, which does tend to show that it's an electrical / bulb issue.

Sadly, I still have the problem though I know now it's not a braking or cruise control issue.

Mick
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post #18 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 12:37 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick R 535 View Post
Hi again

The centre bulb is working fine - it is a double filament fitting - the OEM bulb holder only accepts a double filament bulb.
That said, I did manage to squeeze a single filament in - but the results were the same.

I then fitted a 'non canbus' bulb - and the 'general warning' indicator was on permanently, which does tend to show that it's an electrical / bulb issue.

Sadly, I still have the problem though I know now it's not a braking or cruise control issue.

Mick
John knows more about that system than most but I am going to ask if you rear brake light comes on normally with the rear pedal seeing you have no issue with it using only the front indicating a possible pedal switch issue.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
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post #19 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 1:25 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Hi - Yes, all bulbs across the back of the bike function correctly.

The warning light comes on only if the brake pedal is depressed. It does not come on using the brake lever.

Cruise control operates normally regardless of the warning light being on or off.

Brakes function perfectly regardless of the light being on or off and regardless of whether the front or rear (or both) brakes are used.

The only way to clear the warning light is ignition off then on again (meaning I have to come to a natural stop to be able to do this), but as soon as the rear brake is used, on comes the light again.

As an aside, I have ordered a new battery as I have no history for the one that is currently fitted (given that the bike is 13 years old) - so there is a small chance that this may cure the problem - I should know by Saturday and I'll update this post once it's fitted and I use the brake pedal.

Mick
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post #20 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 1:51 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

"I then fitted a 'non canbus' bulb - and the 'general warning' indicator was on permanently, which does tend to show that it's an electrical / bulb issue."

I'm having a problem understanding this statement, the LT does NOT have a canbus system. I have full faith in John saying it should be a single filament, if you are not using a single filament, I would try a single filament. Do not use a LED.

"The warning light comes on only if the brake pedal is depressed. It does not come on using the brake lever."

I would start my trouble shooting at the rear brake pedal and make sure the pedal switch if working. With no bad bulb warning with the front only, the bulb should be ok.

"Cruise control operates normally regardless of the warning light being on or off."

Does the cruise disengage with pressing the rear pedal only? It should.

Have you checked the condition of the rear brake pads? Have you checked the level of the reservoir(s)?

_____________

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post #21 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 2:57 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

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"I then fitted a 'non canbus' bulb - and the 'general warning' indicator was on permanently, which does tend to show that it's an electrical / bulb issue."

I'm having a problem understanding this statement, the LT does NOT have a canbus system. I have full faith in John saying it should be a single filament, if you are not using a single filament, I would try a single filament. Do not use a LED.

"The warning light comes on only if the brake pedal is depressed. It does not come on using the brake lever."

I would start my trouble shooting at the rear brake pedal and make sure the pedal switch if working. With no bad bulb warning with the front only, the bulb should be ok.

"Cruise control operates normally regardless of the warning light being on or off."

Does the cruise disengage with pressing the rear pedal only? It should.

Have you checked the condition of the rear brake pads? Have you checked the level of the reservoir(s)?
Ok - so to be crystal clear, the OEM bike fitting is for a double filament bulb. That's what is fitted. That bulb functions just fine (to test it, I swapped it out with one of the other double filament bulbs). The fitting has 3 terminals, but only two wires. I swapped out the feed wire to the unoccupied terminal, and repeated the sequence and got the same result - presumably, all that I achieved was to energise the 'other' element in the bulb (bottom line is that it made no difference) so I put it back to how I found it.

Whilst its a double filament fitting, I did manage to fit a single filament bulb (same wattage but different shape) - and whilst that illuminated as I would expect, the problem with the warning light was identical as before.

I then fitted a LED bulb (with the single filament fitting), and the problem was different in that the warning light was on continuously. It was an old (very old) bulb, hence the comment 'non canbus friendly'

The cruise control disengages upon use of either front or rear brake or clutch as I would expect.
If disengaged by use of the rear brake only (causing the warning light to appear), it re-engages again if asked to.
Equally, it will re-engage if previously disengaged by front brake or clutch.

All fluids are topped up correctly and the rear pads are brand spanking new.

Mick
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post #22 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 3:14 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

I normally don't question John but I went and pulled up the Max BMW Fiche and sure enough, it indicates a dual filament bulb in the 3 center positions.

07 11 9 905 511 LONGLIFE BULB - 12V 21/5W

This is a 21/5W bulb. 21W for the brake circuit and 5 for the running light. If you have a bulb that is too low a wattage, it can cause an error such as an LED bulb or a smaller watt incandescent. Check the bulb you are using for proper wattage on both filaments. The ABS unit powers the center bulb and the rest are on a separate relay. If that center bulb does not pull enough current, it can cause issues.

Still curious why it doesn't fail using the front lever. Have you adjusted too much play out of the rear brake pedal? Some have done that with bad results like smoking the rear rotor and catching fire with no fluid allowed to return to the reservoir.

You say the rear pedal illuminates the rear brake lights. Does it fail at a stand still or do you have to be moving?
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2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #23 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 3:28 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

QUOTE "Still curious why it doesn't fail using the front lever. Have you adjusted too much play out of the rear brake pedal? Some have done that with bad results like smoking the rear rotor and catching fire with no fluid allowed to return to the reservoir.

You say the rear pedal illuminates the rear brake lights. Does it fail at a stand still or do you have to be moving? "



Ok, so I have not adjusted the rear pedal at all - I can depress the pedal a short distance prior to the brake lights coming on (just a short distance, but enough), and even with the short distance of travel on the pedal, I can hear the pump/servo clicking in. It's only when more pressure is applied (and the brake lights come on) that the warning light comes on.

The pads do not bind. The rotor rotates freely.

The failure occurs regardless of whether or not the bike moving or standing still or even with ignition on and engine either running or not. If the ignition is on, I can replicate the error.

Mick
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post #24 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 3:44 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

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Originally Posted by Mick R 535 View Post
QUOTE "Still curious why it doesn't fail using the front lever. Have you adjusted too much play out of the rear brake pedal? Some have done that with bad results like smoking the rear rotor and catching fire with no fluid allowed to return to the reservoir.

You say the rear pedal illuminates the rear brake lights. Does it fail at a stand still or do you have to be moving? "



Ok, so I have not adjusted the rear pedal at all - I can depress the pedal a short distance prior to the brake lights coming on (just a short distance, but enough), and even with the short distance of travel on the pedal, I can hear the pump/servo clicking in. It's only when more pressure is applied (and the brake lights come on) that the warning light comes on.

The pads do not bind. The rotor rotates freely.

The failure occurs regardless of whether or not the bike moving or standing still or even with ignition on and engine either running or not. If the ignition is on, I can replicate the error.

Mick
Mick, I am going to look at the schematic tonight. If the servo comes on when the switch is activated but the brake lights don't come on till later in the motion, I suspect a fluid pressure switch is activating the brake lights but I am not all that familiar with the I-ABS as I have the earlier ABS-II system on my 01. The I-ABS brakes are linked so when you apply the front, it also applies the rear automatically. It may be that in the linked mode ( front only applied) it doesn't exert enough rear pressure to initiate the issue. I am just brainstorming right now and will have to do some more research.

Good on the pedal. That issue is if too much play is adjusted out, it blocks the fluid return and heat causes fluid expansion and will cause the pads to drag increasingly as the fluid continues to expand with the building heat. A cascade failure.

It could be an electronic issue in the ABS controller and that would be harder to isolate. Thanks for giving all of us all this information to work with. It helps.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #25 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 4:19 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Oh believe me, I'm really really grateful for the engagement - I'm sure that someone else somewhere must have had to same issue (I cannot be the only person? really?), but I'm no mechanic though I can follow instructions!

That said, my last bike (ST1100) was one of only 3 in the UK to have the engine block split (thankfully under warranty) !

I have a 90 day warranty on this LT (88 days left), so if in the end i'm still suffering the fault at the end of all the efforts to sort it out, i'll get back to the dealer and let them fathom it out. Don't really want to do that as the dealer is 4 hours away, so it's not a trip into town so to speak.

As said a little earlier, the only thing I haven't done is swap out the battery - this will achieved either tomorrow or Saturday and as soon as that is done, i'll post an update.

I have read somewhere that even if the battery has enough oomph to turn the bike over and fire it up (as my battery does - first time every time), it may be lacking in power to a degree enough to upset the ABS system.

I'd ordered the battery before I realised I had this problem simply because the bike is 13 years old on 26 thou miles and i'm second owner - so for all I know, it's the original battery!

It cant hurt!

Once again, many thanks for all your efforts. Appreciated.

I took a video of the issue on my phone - if there's a zip file attached, it's the demonstration of the problem ..... i'll have a go.
(update - I failed - couldn't get the video small enough to post here even if zipped).

Go to
- sorry for the poor quality.

Mick

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post #26 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 7:22 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

I looked at the schematic in the Clymer manual and I didn't see any indication of a pressure sensitive switch but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It could be part of the internal workings of the ABS unit and I don't have a breakdown of that circuitry. I wish it was easy to get a replacement module to swap out, then you would know if it was internal or external to the module. I hope the battery helps because I can't think of anything else to check. Maybe someone else has some ideas besides a module swap. If it is under warranty, the dealer should fix it regardless so if the battery doesn't fix it, take it in in a hurry.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #27 of 35 Old Oct 5th, 2017, 10:02 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

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I appreciate that this is an old thread, but the issue I have is very similar to this ......

LT 2005 version, 26k miles.
Cruise control work fine out on the road.

From driving off, the self diagnostic runs and all the relevant warning lights extinguish.

Brakes feel great - but - if I use only the front brake, the issue doesn't appear - but if I use the rear brake (either alone or in conjunction with the front brake), the 'general warning' lamp lights up.

The manual states that either there's a bulb blown (not so) or the cruise control is unavailable (but as stated this is not the case).

I followed the cruise control diagnostic check list and it failed at step 8 (rotate rear wheel - light flashes on/off) - the light didn't flash, it remained solid.

Can anybody advise what that means? My bike is still under warranty and it'd be good to advise the dealer of what the issue is likely to be.

Confused.

Mick

Based on you last post where you included the VIDEOs, I am 99% sure the problem is with the rear brake switch (located behind pedal).

The owner manual (for 2002-2009) does mention fact that defective rear-bulb will cause a steady GENERAL WARNING (triangle). HOWEVER, what the owners manual (or the shop manual) does NOT say is the following:

(1) if either brake switch does NOT "click" when pressure is applied to lever or pedal. The IABS modulator can sense that there is fluid pressure, but no switch contact was made prior - switch should be adjusted to go on fairly early in lever/pedal travel.
(logged fault in system is: 17917 defective Rear brake switch)

(2) if either brake switch is disconnected (or a wire cut), the fault will not be the same as it will be seen as a false self-check (after ignition ON). In such case you would see continuous fast ABS warning (4 times per sec)

(3) if rear bulb brake filament (high intensity) is defective, you will see similar error as you saw but it would affect both front lever and brake pedal. If the filament of the rear night lite (low intensity) is burned , the GENERAL WARNING will be on even before you have applied brake

(4) when a steady GENERAL-WARNING happens only on either FRONT or REAR brake application, then you need to investigate if the specific brake switch is working.

AT THIS POINT, BEST TROUBLESHOOTING method is to test continuity of rear brake switch WITH IGNITION OFF. The 1st connector you can reach is located behind fairing on right side - see attached photos. Use OHM function of multi-meter to test unplugged connector using small pins (needle) on female side (toward pedal).

IMPORTANT: On IABS models (2002-2009 for USA) these brake switches have reversed logic: continuity when lever/pedal is at rest ...AND... no continuity when brake is applied.

IF NEEDED, assuming this first test is not conclusive, FURTHER tests can be done directly at the large connector located on the ABS modulator (as the brake switches signal goes thru the IABS unit electronics). These test should be done ONLY with the main battery disconnected.
See 2nd photo ...
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-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
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Last edited by sailor; Oct 5th, 2017 at 10:25 pm.
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post #28 of 35 Old Oct 6th, 2017, 9:26 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

That's very helpful - many thanks. I'll let the dealer know when he replies to my enquiry.

For what it's worth, a brand new battery made no difference to anything.

Mikc
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post #29 of 35 Old Oct 6th, 2017, 2:06 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

John is correct. I was wrong the socket and bulb in the center (It has been 10 years since I looked at mine) is a dual element bulb but only the running light element is energized.

Yes there is a pressure switch inside the ABS and if the pressure switch trips with no foot pedal switch input it will trip the warning. Easy to check as you can listen for the "click" right at the pedal when you press the pedal down.

The pics show the "paddle" for the brake switch and how it should function. The click should occur after picture two.
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John
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post #30 of 35 Old Oct 6th, 2017, 5:46 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Yes there is a pressure switch inside the ABS and if the pressure switch trips with no foot pedal switch input it will trip the warning. Easy to check as you can listen for the "click" right at the pedal when you press the pedal down.

The pics show the "paddle" for the brake switch and how it should function. The click should occur after picture two.
I had similar or same issue when I bought my K12GT a few years ago (same system). Previous owner didn't know what was wrong and couldn't fix it.... I found the switch didn't "click" when the peddle was released. a liberal application of WD40 around the foot-peddle brake switch freed things up and the switch operated normally ever since.

Chris
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post #31 of 35 Old Oct 6th, 2017, 8:05 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

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Originally Posted by Mick R 535 View Post
That's very helpful - many thanks. I'll let the dealer know when he replies to my enquiry.

For what it's worth, a brand new battery made no difference to anything.

Mikc
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post #32 of 35 Old Oct 6th, 2017, 8:50 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
John is correct. I was wrong the socket and bulb in the center (It has been 10 years since I looked at mine) is a dual element bulb but only the running light element is energized.

Yes there is a pressure switch inside the ABS and if the pressure switch trips with no foot pedal switch input it will trip the warning. Easy to check as you can listen for the "click" right at the pedal when you press the pedal down.

The pics show the "paddle" for the brake switch and how it should function. The click should occur after picture two.
Thanks for the pictures of the rear pedal with switch on the LT... this might be useful in future.

Reason why I insisted on doing continuity test BOTH at 1st connector AND also at large IABS connector is to eliminate a case where 1 or 2 pins have been bent (or forced). I have seen cases where the IABS large connector was not pushed back perfectly straight - causing a bad contact on these small pins related to either brake switches.

Also, pushing a proper size small needle (or wire) on the female side of the IABS connector (light blue side), will let you feel if the tightness of the internal individual connectors is the same (one could be damaged or loose internally).
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post #33 of 35 Old Oct 12th, 2017, 6:08 am
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Dear all

Problem solved - a result of suggestions on this forum.

Despite the micro switch on the brake pedal making a reassuring 'click' as the pedal was depressed, I decided to swamp it with WD40 as it couldn't do any harm anyway.

..... and it was that simple! Clearly, it wasn't making the correct connection/disconnection. It is now.

No warning light...... one happy rider.

Much thanks and appreciation to everybody who has contributed to the discussion - couldn't have done it without you.

Best wishes

Mick
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post #34 of 35 Old Oct 12th, 2017, 5:06 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

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Dear all
Problem solved - a result of suggestions on this forum.
Despite the micro switch on the brake pedal making a reassuring 'click' as the pedal was depressed, I decided to swamp it with WD40 as it couldn't do any harm anyway.
..... and it was that simple! Clearly, it wasn't making the correct connection/disconnection. It is now.
Good to hear Mick... simple solution always the best one.
Did you happen to notice if the brake pedal "clicked" when you released the pedal? I suspect is probably wasn't (same issue I had) which was fixed by freeing up the components.
So make sure you hear the micro-switch click both when depressing, and also releasing the pedal.

Chris
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post #35 of 35 Old Oct 12th, 2017, 5:40 pm
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Re: Odd brake system and cruise control behavior

Hi CWS

I confess that I cannot now recall if the micro switch 'clicked' when the brake pedal was released when I was searching for the solution - but I can say now (having used the WD40) that it clicks 'on' and 'off' (or vice versa).

As a complete aside, given that the centre bulb at the rear is a double filament, but only one filament is energised, what's to stop the second filament being energised by connecting it to the second filament on the neighbouring bulb?

Mick
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