Advanced riding and getting used to the bike. - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 5:26 pm Thread Starter
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Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

So I found a parking lot to learn the bike, went and did some tight figure 8's and then decided to find out what the bike feels like when you do a panic stop.

Why does it feel like the rear tire came off the ground? Really suprised me as I have never had another bike do that in my life. IT felt like the rear tire lifted and skidded. I was hard on the front and medium on the rear like I was taught to do at advanced riding classes.

Bike stayed in a straight line, but it did not react like I though it should have. Is that the ABS kicking in?

It did stop in a shorter distance than I have ever seen any motorcycle stop before. Certainly a LOT shorter stoping distance than my Venture or other bikes have stopped doing the same exercise.

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #2 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 5:32 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Love those power assist brakes. Check your shocks. Mine were worn out at 30k and did what you described, or could be they just need adjusting.

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post #3 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 5:34 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwnahas
Love those power assist brakes. Check your shocks. Mine were worn out at 30k and did what you described, or could be they just need adjusting.
I do have the rear set soft. I'll try again setting it harder.

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #4 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 5:50 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

different suspension but on my K100 and K1100 if you got progressively harder on the brakes they would start to shuffle a bit - rear wheel off ground - have not done it that I am aware of with the LT but do not have power brakes on the 2K

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post #5 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 7:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Part of the exercise is learning what the bikes does when you just slam them on as hard as you possibly can as if in a panic stop, specifically trying to activate the ABS. I was only doing 20mph and did it several times. 2 out of 3 times it had the same rear end feeling. I need to go back out and try again with the rear shock set stiffer. I notice it does not dive like other bikes do when you break hard. Most will really compress the front forks until the hydraulic anti dive valves kick in. She acted as if it was riding on solid steel front forks almost no noticeable compression.

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #6 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 7:54 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

If the rear came off the ground (not likely), the ABS would engage, pulsing the fronts until the wheel came back down and the speed from both ends became the same.

It definitely takes some getting used to the feel of the ABS. On my way to the highway, I ride down a steep washboard section. Brake too hard and the lever feels like you are metal to metal until both ends agree. I feel it going off quite often. Exit the interstate and run over a reflector dot while braking and it will activate. I was surprised by a recent poster that reported he had never activated the ABS, I seem to do it all the time.

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post #7 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 7:58 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timgray
Part of the exercise is learning what the bikes does when you just slam them on as hard as you possibly can as if in a panic stop, specifically trying to activate the ABS. I was only doing 20mph and did it several times. 2 out of 3 times it had the same rear end feeling. I need to go back out and try again with the rear shock set stiffer. I notice it does not dive like other bikes do when you break hard. Most will really compress the front forks until the hydraulic anti dive valves kick in. She acted as if it was riding on solid steel front forks almost no noticeable compression.
The front end will not go into a nose dive, thanks to the paralever type of suspension. The downside is that you need to keep the wheel straight when coming to a stop and using the front brakes or she will take a nap.

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post #8 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 9:00 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

On your 2003 it doesn't matter which brake lever you apply they are linked. If you use one or both they do the same job. You can use just the hand brake or just the foot brake or both of them it doesn't matter.

Dave Selvig
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post #9 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 9:09 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
On your 2003 it doesn't matter which brake lever you apply they are linked. If you use one or both they do the same job. You can use just the hand brake or just the foot brake or both of them it doesn't matter.
OH! BMW linked is different than everyone else. On the Goldwing and other big bikes Linked is the back break and the left side of the front for the foot brake, and the hand brake is the right side of the front.

I did not know that BMW did a complete linking of all 3 brakes no matter what you touch, good to know!

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #10 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 9:20 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
On your 2003 it doesn't matter which brake lever you apply they are linked. If you use one or both they do the same job. You can use just the hand brake or just the foot brake or both of them it doesn't matter.
I've often wondered just what the control algorithm is as I have heard a number of different explanations.

This article is one of the more extensive I have found and claims to be based on BMW documents, but it still doesn't really give the nitty gritty details on the whizzy brakes.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-moto...mw-abs-asc.htm

When I bought my LT, the dealer explained the linked brakes and the servo assist. I was told that the linked brakes would favor the end being applied. So, rear alone would provide more braking at the rear wheel and less at the front. Front alone would provide mostly front, but some at the rear. I was advised that both brakes needed to be used to get a maximum performance stop. I was also advised that the brakes were "adaptive" and would change the front to rear link ratio based on load on the bike, etc.

Still not confident I REALLY know how the whizzy linked brakes really work...

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post #11 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 9:59 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

The only time the linked brakes favor the front or rear is when they are very lightly applied. In other words if you lightly apply just the rear foot brake pedal it will favor the rear brake & it must be applied lightly. The same goes for the front hand brake lever. Either way you always have front & rear brakes applied.

Once you apply anything more than light pressure on either brake lever the ABS servo brake system controls the brake bias pressure from front to rear.

This only applies on the 2002 to 2009 LT's

Dave Selvig
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post #12 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 10:17 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

When do such hard break, all of that 850 lbs or about will transfer to the front, not surprised if you felt the rear wheel coming off the ground.
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post #13 of 21 Old Aug 7th, 2013, 11:56 pm
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timgray
I was hard on the front and medium on the rear like I was taught to do at advanced riding class.
I don't think that technique is necessary/valid for the LT due to the ABS and linked brakes. Seems like the purpose of the medium rear braking is to keep the tire from skidding as weight transfers to the front wheel and available rear friction diminishes. But the ABS should kick in to prevent a skid. Right?


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post #14 of 21 Old Aug 8th, 2013, 6:43 am Thread Starter
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruivis
I don't think that technique is necessary/valid for the LT due to the ABS and linked brakes. Seems like the purpose of the medium rear braking is to keep the tire from skidding as weight transfers to the front wheel and available rear friction diminishes. But the ABS should kick in to prevent a skid. Right?

And that may be another point, Servo assist IS hitting them harder than I think I am.. Maybe my panic stop I was pulling them way too hard and I was causing the ABS to become overwhelmed? I never felt the pedal or handbrake give any feedback like you do in a car with ABS.

Is it possible to hit the brakes so hard that servo assist can override the ABS? I am used to stopping an 800 pound beast with standard single piston Yamaha brakes, so you had to get on the brakes hard to make it stop.

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #15 of 21 Old Aug 8th, 2013, 8:10 am
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

I did the "Ride Like a Pro" class several years ago on my 02 LT and one of the classes had to do with medium speed panic stops. The LT ran/stopped rings around all of the other bikes, especially the Harleys. A GoldWing came in a close second. Medium speed swerving, it was the same. None could keep up, but that had nothing to do with the brakes.

A high speed stop on the LT's linked brakes is quick and quite safe. It's nice to know how quickly you can not only stop, but swerve.

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post #16 of 21 Old Aug 8th, 2013, 10:21 am Thread Starter
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver
I did the "Ride Like a Pro" class several years ago on my 02 LT and one of the classes had to do with medium speed panic stops. The LT ran/stopped rings around all of the other bikes, especially the Harleys. A GoldWing came in a close second. Medium speed swerving, it was the same. None could keep up, but that had nothing to do with the brakes.

A high speed stop on the LT's linked brakes is quick and quite safe. It's nice to know how quickly you can not only stop, but swerve.
That is exactly what I am trying to learn Dan.. What to expect and what the bike can do. Plus I have been slacking and have not practiced any of what I learned at the class for a couple of years, so I figure it's a good time to do it.

So far I can do the figure 8 in a 20 foot circle without issue. I need to also throw a 2X4 on the ground and ride over it at different angles to see how it reacts to uneven pavement.

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #17 of 21 Old Aug 8th, 2013, 10:42 am
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timgray
. . . . I never felt the pedal or handbrake give any feedback like you do in a car with ABS.
I've posted that before about no feedback - during an MSF class, the instructor said he could see my front wheel cogging with the ABS active, but it is transparent to the rider.

I've read elsewhere the ABS needs to be activated often to prevent the valves from sticking, so now I try to it daily. It's awesome how fast this beast can stop, just make sure there's nobody behind you!!

Jim
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post #18 of 21 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 12:52 am
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

So, Tim - is this what you were talking about?
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post #19 of 21 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 1:02 am
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Technically, the LT's brakes are neither Linked nor Integrated as they don't fall easily into either of those definitions. BMW Motorrad uses the term Integral to refer to the 2002 and up brakes (2001 in Europe/Canada).

Yes, they are power assisted, but they are also controlled by a small processor that varies the front and rear braking forces applied depending on wheel speed, lever forces applied, and other conditions. At driving speeds and normal conditions, you will get a similar response from either the front or rear lever. But at slower speeds, the front brake lever has much more effect on the front wheel and the rear brake can be applied without generating any noticeable force on the front wheel. That's what makes slow-speed u-turns possible. Add to that the ABS functions, which attempts to limit wheel lockups under heavy braking or in slick conditions, and the power assist, which multiplies the forces exerted by the brake levers onto the calipers.

Some of the older Gold Wings had one front and the rear caliper connected to the rear lever, while the front lever operated the other front caliper. That setup (and linking all calipers to both levers) can easily be accomplished by just rerouting the hydraulic plumbing. Honda's current Linked Braking System uses multi-piston calipers with some brake pistons from each wheel hooked to the front lever and the others hooked to the rear lever, but again this is just a trick of plumbing with no real intelligence or active compensation. The BMW Integral Power ABS unit is much more sophisticated and active unit that doesn't really fit into those classifications.

So basically what BMW has done is unique in the motorcycle world, and not directly comparable to any other brake system that you may be familiar with. And yes, it just works, very well.

There's more good info in this thread, and a detailed description of flushing and bleeding the Integral brakes in this pdf.

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post #20 of 21 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 4:06 am
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

It's a tough bike to get used to, as tall as it is. But I'm getting along with it a lot better lately. Two things are helping my confidence:

1. Traded the ridiculous Corbin it came with for an OEM "low" seat. Not only does it cut the bike down to a reasonable height, it's also more comfortable.

2. Took off the top box. Much more nimble and agile that way.

I did a long ride today, through twisties, and at some point something clicked and I really felt like I was getting along with the bike for the first time. Flicking it through the corners with a feeling that I was in control, rather than just hanging on and praying.
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post #21 of 21 Old Aug 9th, 2013, 7:59 am
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Re: Advanced riding and getting used to the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
The only time the linked brakes favor the front or rear is when they are very lightly applied. In other words if you lightly apply just the rear foot brake pedal it will favor the rear brake & it must be applied lightly. The same goes for the front hand brake lever. Either way you always have front & rear brakes applied.

Once you apply anything more than light pressure on either brake lever the ABS servo brake system controls the brake bias pressure from front to rear.

This only applies on the 2002 to 2009 LT's
+1 on this.
When practicing slow speed full lock turns I drag the rear brake and feather the clutch into the friction area.
By lightly dragging the rear brake I can almost stall the engine while the bike stays fully controlled and upright. Scary fun to do a 5mph turn while in full control.
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