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post #1 of 23 Old Oct 7th, 2005, 9:06 am Thread Starter
 
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Question Full Power

Hi everybody,

This qestion to those having to face the 100HP power restriction. Have you turned your engine to full power? Was it expensive to do it and in the end is it worthwhile in terms of power, torque and agreement?
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post #2 of 23 Old Oct 7th, 2005, 9:17 am Thread Starter
 
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Red face Full power

Well I could be more precise... I am talking about the LT.
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post #3 of 23 Old Oct 7th, 2005, 5:37 pm
 
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The only upgrade I know that would add appreciable horsepower or torque to my '02 is to drop an '05 motor in it. Do you know something I don't know?
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post #4 of 23 Old Oct 7th, 2005, 7:45 pm
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Hello Chris : I think BMW has the 05 1200 turned up about as much as they can,thats what seperates the 04 from the 05. You could change exhaust and air cleaner to make it breath a bit better. I know Rhinewest makes a new cam gear that works fairly well. Or you could spend alot of money and put S bike pistons and cams in it. I would like to get my bikes to run as good as they do at sea level without moving away.
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post #5 of 23 Old Oct 7th, 2005, 8:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
The only upgrade I know that would add appreciable horsepower or torque to my '02 is to drop an '05 motor in it. Do you know something I don't know?
Why, yes. The chip and Remus.



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post #6 of 23 Old Oct 7th, 2005, 9:10 pm
 
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C'mon Grif! I said "appreciable"! What's the Remus/RW combo add...3, maybe 4 HP?! MAYBE?

In fact, Big Al dyno'ed his bike after the Remus/RW mod...zero gain. You ask him. Maybe he was lying to me.
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post #7 of 23 Old Oct 12th, 2005, 11:12 pm
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Ditto to Grif's comment. The Rhinewest chip will give a legitimate 9-10 lb/ft of torque. The chip gives about 95lb/ft in the pre '05 LT's which is considerably more torque than the '05 produces. I would like to run against an '05 with my chip-equipped '00 LT...I have no doubt I would smoke the '05.
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post #8 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 12:14 am
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Nice gains

I added a Remus pipe and a Rhine West chip recently on my '01. Though not extreme gains, it is definitely noticeable. It really needed a bit more punch, and I found (most of) it. Of course, I will always want more.. more.. more... but I think it's a nice set-up. I wouldn't go back.
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post #9 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 2:36 am
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This may be heresy, but....

here it goes. Please be gentle if you elect to flame me.....I'm very sensitive


More horsepower and, or, torque are always good. You'll never get me, or most other enthusiasts, to say otherwise. However the question is, "at what price?". The LT is a LARGE bike. It is not a dragster or a street brawler and so being lite in weight and having a slight power edge on the competition (for the most part, other LT's) in terms of acceleration is NOT what the game is all about. That said, "how much am I willing to pay per unit increase in power?" 'There is a number.

I have an '04 LT and I acknowledge that it is less powerful than the '05 (an informed choice I made based on relative price at time of purchase). Assuming that the engines are essentially the same with the stipulation that the '04 is effectively de-tuned relative to the '05, the question is, "am I willing to pay a significant amount of money to get a bit (call it 5-10%) more power?" When I say significant, we're looking at about $100 per horsepower and about $150 per foot/lb of torque. Those numbers are pretty steep.

For me, WHEN I feel that I have mastered the skills associated with the LT (not likely in the foreseeable future), then I'll look to adding more power at significant expense. At this point in my riding, relative to MY ability, a top two-up speed of over 110 mph and a two-up speed in corners about double the posted suggested speed is plenty exciting and is at the limit of my "sanity check" limiter for pace. Regardless, the cornering pace is not limited by the available power on tap. I still have enough power available to affect the physics of the bike in a corner and feel that I'm effectively in grade school in terms of understanding all of the cornering dynamics and the application of my inputs to affect them.

Don't get me wrong on this, I would love to propel Dieter BETWEEN corners at a faster clip, but how much faster and at what cost? Straight-aways are not the measure of a motorcyclist, unless they're a drag racer, or a street brawler (see Wolfgang, 500 lbs, 174 HP). To borrow a phrase, "it's the cornering, Stupid".

To date, I've never had a group bike pass my LT, including two-up, in a straight-away, except Raffy on a "buzz" , even though they clearly had the power to do so. My belief is that we measure our relative position in the "pack" based on the ability to negotiate the curves. Riders that determine they are overmatched in the corners by a rider behind them will freely give way, if they don't, they should.

In short, if you're anxious to spend money to "go faster", spend the money on skills development first. When you have mastered the limits of the bike, THEN spend the money on increasing the potential of the bike.


.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05

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Last edited by BillyOmaha; Oct 13th, 2005 at 2:42 am.
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post #10 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 5:00 am Thread Starter
 
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Unhappy Full power

My question was only about getting the maximum power available on the machine without any kind of "heretical" modifications or upgrades. My LT is an april '04 model and I am wondering if it is factory limited to 100HP (due to the french law in this matter). In this case, is it easy to turn up to the maximum available power?
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post #11 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 9:55 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris1951
My question was only about getting the maximum power available on the machine without any kind of "heretical" modifications or upgrades. My LT is an april '04 model and I am wondering if it is factory limited to 100HP (due to the french law in this matter). In this case, is it easy to turn up to the maximum available power?
Howdy Christian,

My apologies for that previous long winded answer.

In short, the answer to your question is, "yes". Expensive, but not "heretical".

On the '04, after cutting the "Brown Wire" which eliminates the slow speed hesitation, the balance of the power related enhancements get pricey, but they're not radical.

There are essentially two changes you can make:
Remus exhaust system
Rhinewest performance chip

With these changes you would be buying about 15, or so, horsepower and a few ft/lbs of torque. Essentially making the output equal to the '05 LT.

Aside from the cost, the Remus has a rumble that some pillion riders may find uncomfortable for long periods.


Hope this helps with your pursuit of performance.


.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05

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post #12 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 10:11 am
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Brain Fart!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris1951
This qestion to those having to face the 100HP power restriction.
You're in FRANCE! D'oh!!

I believe in Europe the '04 LTwas the same as the U.S. '05 model.

Do you have separate light units for high and low beam and chrome on the top case above the latch?

If you do, then you have what we in the U.S. refer to as on '05 model. It may be that for France, something specific was done to lower the power. Contacting Rhinewest may be good source for answers.

If your top case is like mine, the one in the picture below, without the chrome above the latch, then it's probabably not restricted any more than we've been discussing and the "chip and exhaust" would be effective.


.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05

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post #13 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 9:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakotaDude
Ditto to Grif's comment. The Rhinewest chip will give a legitimate 9-10 lb/ft of torque. The chip gives about 95lb/ft in the pre '05 LT's which is considerably more torque than the '05 produces. I would like to run against an '05 with my chip-equipped '00 LT...I have no doubt I would smoke the '05.
I seriously doubt that you would be able to pull away from, much less smoke an 05. The 05 has roughly 15 more hp which is a lot. My first LT an 02 ran great, but once you passed 6500rpm you could feel the engine starting to ease off. I always shifted at around this rpm because of this. The 05 LT is totally different. It pulls like a freight train all the way to red line. I have raced my buddy on his 02 GL1800 with my previous 02 LT and my current 05. With the 02 LT he would steadily pull away from me a little bit all the way to triple digits. My 05 LT is just the opposite as I can steadily pull from away from him by about the same amount as he once pulled me.

If we start from a dead stand still and he is in front, even with his great torque off the line I will be running all over him by the time I get half way through second gear.

So if you don't have a friend with an 05 LT to play with maybe you have a friend with a GL1800 that you can play with. If you can pull away from or smoke the 1800 then you can take an 05 to the cleaners.

I love lots of torque, but horsepower rules. A neat way of explaining the difference between the two if someone asks and doesn't know is this: Torque determines how much work an engine is capable of doing and Horsepower determines how fast the engine can do that amount of work.

If you get a chance to play with either of the two bikes, please be careful and be sure to let us know the results.


Wayne Mann
Randleman NC
05 Ocean Blue LT
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post #14 of 23 Old Oct 13th, 2005, 10:07 pm
 
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I have a 12K service appt set up for next week at Hermy's in Port Clinton Pa. They will doing and install for my HID high and low beams at the same time and possibly an Autocom system. I am debating on an exhaust but not a Remus. Looking at the Remus I cannot see how in any way it could make any real gains in power beyond removing the restrictive cat conv. I an seriously considering a RB Racing exhaust. The said even they make no claims for above stock power, maybe 1-2 HP. They did say that customers report about a 10% increase in fuel milage and better response and roll on. They sell a recalibrated Bosch fuel pressure regulator and a high flow fuel rail--no injectors at this time for the LT, probably because they do not have a ram-air system available for the LT. You can visit them at rbracing-rsr.com.
Look at the build on the header pipes compared to the Remus. There system is a 4-2-1 with long head pipes. I am ready to commit--anybody know why I should not buy from these guys?
Walt Roman 2005 LT (Goldie Hun)
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post #15 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 12:35 am
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Somewhere between 5 to 10% added efficiency isn't going to make any "real" difference to an LT. It will be noticeable, but not blindingly obvious. Keep your LT well tuned and run a good grade of fuel, and the LT has all the power anyone will really need in a big tourer.

Just follow any GL1800 wing along a twisty bit of road and you'll find the extra 600cc's and the extra torque of the wing adds up to zip in the corners.

When I brought my LT my mates in the ST1100 club gave me such a baggin, calling it a truck, an elephant etc. However, first ride together through the twisties, and the guy who did most of the baggin confessed "It don't go to badly for a truck"!

Cheers

Barry
Brisbane
Australia

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post #16 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 12:50 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rattso
I have a 12K service appt set up for next week at Hermy's in Port Clinton Pa. They will doing and install for my HID high and low beams at the same time and possibly an Autocom system. I am debating on an exhaust but not a Remus. Looking at the Remus I cannot see how in any way it could make any real gains in power beyond removing the restrictive cat conv. I an seriously considering a RB Racing exhaust. The said even they make no claims for above stock power, maybe 1-2 HP. They did say that customers report about a 10% increase in fuel milage and better response and roll on. They sell a recalibrated Bosch fuel pressure regulator and a high flow fuel rail--no injectors at this time for the LT, probably because they do not have a ram-air system available for the LT. You can visit them at rbracing-rsr.com.
Look at the build on the header pipes compared to the Remus. There system is a 4-2-1 with long head pipes. I am ready to commit--anybody know why I should not buy from these guys?
Walt Roman 2005 LT (Goldie Hun)

We had a guy on the site just before the switch over who purchased an R&B.
If I remember right, it (The R&B) was back up for sale within a month .... because it was TOO NOISY !!

The Remus really woke up my Y2K, but it too was ... Too Noisy, So I did this:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=939

Now have the better power delivery of a free flowing tuned exhaust, No 4500 rpm vibes, and moderate noise levels.

Scott

"00" Canyon Red LTI ~ Well Farklized ~ Bug Splattered
Our "semi" quiet riot
*** Trailer Too ***

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post #17 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 1:01 am
 
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With performance enhancements the law of diminishing marginal returns usually kicks in very quickly.
You have to spend more and more to get less and less.
There is usually very little you can do on modern bikes to create a significant improvement without spending a truckload of money.
Best is to buy a bike with all the power you need up front.
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post #18 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 5:00 am Thread Starter
 
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Red face Full power

I have called a BMW add ons specialist who was recommended by a friend for the good work he did on his R1150RT. The guy told me that my april '04 LT is not full power and that it can be upgraded thanks to the electronic of the machine. He has already done it and tells that it gives an increase of power, torque but also an appreciable reduction of fuell consumption without any bad effect on the character of the engine. He can also install Garmin GPS and all kind of interesting devices.

Well, I will first try the power upgrade and I will keep you informed of the result.
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post #19 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 5:37 am
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Billy,

Amen, brother! Your logic is undeniable, however.... anyone with testicles knows that you can never have enough power!

'07 - R1200RT Slippery Silver

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RA #28511

Past rides:
'03 R1150RT - MAXed out
'03 K1200LTC - Gone to the Darko side
'00 Kawasaki Concours - Buzz
'71 Honda SL350 - The original dual-sport
'72 Kawasaki 250 triple - The smoking gun
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post #20 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 6:48 am Thread Starter
 
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Wink Full power

You're right about power needs. Concerning the LT I will accept to have only the maximum it can deliver without deep modifications. I will be quite happy with manufacturer specs which are reduced here in France to 100HP because of a stupid law!
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post #21 of 23 Old Oct 14th, 2005, 2:49 pm
 
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Smile

Regarding the FLLT (French) version of the LT, I think it is enough to replace the French model Motronic unit/chip with a "foreign" of the same year and you'll be up to full power.

I don't understand BMW's policy with this 98 HP stuff. Most other mfgs offer models with 106 HP here in France, this including the Gold Wing.

O'boy, I'm sure glad I don't have a French neutered Hayabusa ;-)

Why does not the French motorcycle society revolt against laws like this and just drag down the "responsable" to Place de la Concorde and offer a replay of the Marie-Antoinette sequence unless they get in line with the rest of the world?

On the other hand the powerband of the full power LT and the "neutered" version is different only above 4,500 rpms, so it is not that critical really.

BTW, our moving van is coming on Wednesday next week, so try to stop by the house as soon as you can if you want to check out the GPS set up.

A +

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post #22 of 23 Old Oct 15th, 2005, 5:35 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rattso
I am seriously considering a RB Racing exhaust. I am ready to commit--anybody know why I should not buy from these guys?
Walt,

Go to the old LT site and search for RB Racing. You'll get a few decent opinions there, then you can make up your own mind.

Here's what I wrote about them earlier this year in response to a similar query:

I spoke with them (RB Racing) a while back about their LT mods. They basically said the main weak points of the LT are the clutch and too-small injectors. They aren't selling the LT turbo kits because the clutch won't handle it (neither will your bank account) and they've been "working on" a stronger clutch for several years now. I don't know a lot about injectors, but it seemed like a reasonable argument, however the questions of duty cycle and fuel consumption probably need to be answered first.

I also heard enough bad things about the company from dissatisfied customers that I'd be hesitant to part with my cash unless I could speak with them face to face. That's easier for me as I live near L. A., but obviously more difficult if you're out of state.

If you do decide to go with them, be sure to let us know how it all goes. Much better to offer facts from a real customer than hearsay and opinions from armchair experts.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #23 of 23 Old Oct 16th, 2005, 9:27 pm
 
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Wasn't able to coordinate the dealer and RB racing last week. I do not know if they offer dealer incentives, my guess is they do not. I would not hesitate to buy an exhaust from them but unsure about the fuel rail and pressure regulator. My seat of the pants dyno tells me this bike ("05 LT) runs a little rich as you start to get above 60 MPH. My Gold Wing 1800 did also. I can ride it on two lane country roads and if I am relaxed get over 60 MPG then jump on the highway and with the cruise set at 80 and milage will drop to the mid 40's. That is more than air resistance, I believe the bike is on the rich side of OK. On my Wing I cut out the converter and installed Tourque Master Tork Loops (looked just like the name-a large loop connecting the header pipe to the muffler) and the same companys mufflers. The guy that designed the loops worked off a dyno and gas sniffer and built an exhaust that provided the correct flow to allow the correct air/fuel mixture at the broadest range of operation. That is proper design, probably why the RB Racing guys claim 10% gain in fuel milage--I would not put on a exhaust just to gain milage but when a bike is getting better milage the engine will generally have better response and run crisper, with a little more "edge" to the throttle.
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