Holding Brake at Stoplight - Will it wear out Servo Assist motor? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 12:47 pm Thread Starter
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Question Holding Brake at Stoplight - Will it wear out Servo Assist motor?

Still pretty new to the KLT (only about 1000 miles under my belt). I do have, what's probably, a stupid question.

If you hold the brake in at a stop light, does this prematurely wear out the ABS/Servo brake pump? Just wondering since I'm very congnizent of this at stop lights, since I can hear the pump running. The pumps sounds very normal, it's just that I can hear it.....so it just got me wondering if I'm gonna wear it out too soon.

Sorry fo he dumb question.

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post #2 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 1:11 pm
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Thats a great question! I was wondering the samething. Also, this is even dumber is it a bad habit to hold your clutch in while at a stop light, will this cause un needed wear?

Donald
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post #3 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 1:20 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickAR
Thats a great question! I was wondering the samething. Also, this is even dumber is it a bad habit to hold your clutch in while at a stop light, will this cause un needed wear?
The only thing that will wear holding the clutch in is the little "throwout" bearing in the front end of the slave cylinder piston. I had that get tight once, and that causes the piston to spin inside the cylinder, wiping out the seal.

I did always hold the clutch in when stopped for short times, so 80,000 miles of that could very well have contributed to the slave failing.

I would imagine that some of the failed slave cylinders are due to the bearing freezing, but I may be the only one who has disassembled a failed one to see what happened. Dealer replaced cylinders are most likely just trashed, and I have not read of anyone else here dismantling one for evaluation.

Personally though, If I get another LT, I will still hold the clutch in when stopped, but I will also routinely replace the slave at 60 K, and also will drill the drain hole so when one does fail, the repair will be limited to just replacing the cylinder, and NOT the clutch.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #4 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 2:03 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDragon
When I stop at a light/stop sign I watch the traffic approaching from behind and flash the brake lights to alert them to my presence.
I also position the LT so that I can slide in between vehicles ahead of me if the approaching vehicle(s) don't slow there approach to my liking.

Bike in 1st Gear, Pointed to the Escape Route, Hand on the Throttle watching and Flashing
I'm with Dave on this one, same thing I do, still got rear ended sitting at a light about 6-7 years ago. Saw him coming too .....fast, he saw me too ....late, locked up the brakes and slid sideways,
knocking the bike out from under me.
My strategy is what saved me as I was already moving when he hit me.
Then the S.O.B. tried to run but got wedged up on the median curb.
I ran after him, reached in and pulled the keys out of the ignition and reared back to pop him a good one when I realized he was just a kid, 15 with his learners permit, stole mama's station wagon while they went out to a movie.
Geeesz!!!!!


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post #5 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 3:24 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
I would imagine that some of the failed slave cylinders are due to the bearing freezing, but I may be the only one who has disassembled a failed one to see what happened. Dealer replaced cylinders are most likely just trashed, and I have not read of anyone else here dismantling one for evaluation.
Actually David I have dismantled both of mine and have found that deterioration of the seal leaves little "balls" of rubber that I believe result in the leakage around the seal. I had a friend of mine who is in hydraulics design look at them and he was able to locate the manufacturer of the seal and he is going to send me a seal of different material that they believe will hold up better in that environment.

Jeff in Myrtle Beach
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post #6 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 4:35 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffklt
Actually David I have dismantled both of mine and have found that deterioration of the seal leaves little "balls" of rubber that I believe result in the leakage around the seal. I had a friend of mine who is in hydraulics design look at them and he was able to locate the manufacturer of the seal and he is going to send me a seal of different material that they believe will hold up better in that environment.
I did not doubt that plain seal failure is the reason MOST fail, but do imagine that there have been more than just mine that failed due to the piston being spun in the cylinder, scoring the cylinder wall, which in turn destroys the seal in very short order.

I posted pictures once of the cylinder and piston that suffered this particular failure.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #7 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 7:34 pm
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Not a dumb question!

As I was sitting in traffic just 30 minutes ago at a very long light I had the same exact question. Now I know.

Thanks for asking.

Howard Schisler
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2009 BMW K1200LT - 60k miles
2012 BMW F650GS (sold)
2005 BMW K1200LT - "Gray Ghost", traded at 120k miles
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post #8 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 7:43 pm
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All our RTPs have servo assist and some of the motors run 7 days a week, since 2002. Never had problem with them yet, and we sure do not baby them.
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post #9 of 17 Old Mar 30th, 2006, 11:52 pm
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Just squeeze 'em hard enough to keep from rolling. If a long light, I sometimes shut off the motor and put it in gear.

Usually, if not too much incline, I can put it in neutral and straddle the bike... lean forward just a bit.. nice monkey butt releif and I can see over the cage in front of me.

I don't shut off motor unless a long light (Austin traffic in construction is bad, add to that, lack of driver edicate, overabundance of anger...etc) and the folks behind me are keeping their distance and there are a couple cars behind me. Still I keep my eyes peeled.

My 2005 did have the ABS fail... probably just a bad one.. because Lonestar fixed it and it's been fine.. even BETTER than new!

If you can leave motor running, put in neutral, release clutch to reduce wear on TO bearing, fork, slave, etc. Keep your foot on the pedal so you can just "click" it down into 1st and move out.

...............
J.M.J...
Dcn Channing

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post #10 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 8:15 am Thread Starter
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Wink

Thanks for all the replies. I can rest easy now while holding my brake lever at a stop light.

For what it's worth, I also leave it in first gear, with the clutched pulled in at a stoplight. I also only put one foot down (my left foot), and leave both hands on the handelebars....ready for action. Only time I might take a hand off to wipe my brow, etc....is after the vvehicle behind me has ocme to a stop. But even, then it's probably not a good idea...since there will be other vehicles coming in behind that one..and I'm still suceptible to a chain reaction/domino rear-end crash.

Most of these practices are taught as part of the Motorcycle Safety Rider's courses. As was said above in the thread, it allows you to scoot out of the way quickly, if an "overzealous" driver that comes up behind you at a stoplight, doesn't appear to be slowing down/stopping. Of course, this also means you have to have an escape path...so along with this in the Safety Rider's course, they teach you to stop far enough behind the vehicle in front of you, and off to one side, so as to create that path. I liek to flash my brake lights too as these vehicles approach from behind.
when they're incoming.

Cheers...and thanks again.
Toolman

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post #11 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 9:11 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
-------------If you can leave motor running, put in neutral, release clutch to reduce wear on TO bearing, fork, slave, etc. Keep your foot on the pedal so you can just "click" it down into 1st and move out.
There is no "fork" on these like on cars. The throwout bearing is a VERY small ball thrust bearing (only about 10MM diameter) in the front of the slave cylinder piston, the actuating rod that goes through the tranny main shaft to the clutch spins with the clutch, and that little bearing is all there is to keep the piston from spinning with it. That is the dumbest engineering on the bike in my opinion.

Unfortunately, there is no room in front of the swing arm to make the assembly sit further back and allow more room for a thrust bearing with better radial retention of the stationary race, so only the piston seal resists the rotation of the piston.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #12 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 10:03 am
 
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So I have to ask.

Is there any part of this bike you have not disassembled? Your scope of knowledge is impressive.
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post #13 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 10:18 am
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David,

I looked at the slave I had replaced as a precaution during my rear trans seal warranty replacement (it was perfect at 16K). Still glad I did it for cost of $83 bucks (2 year warranty on parts).

That is a small bearing but I was surprized at the force of the internal spring. It keeps everything in contact with the clutch released so it is under some wear stress just driving down the road. It is amazing it can go as long as it does.

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
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post #14 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 12:42 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rixchard
So I have to ask.

Is there any part of this bike you have not disassembled? Your scope of knowledge is impressive.


Thanks for the compliment!

About the only thing I have not disassembled is the transmission, front forks, and the ABS system. Although I did replace all the tranny seals. Just about everything else has been under my knife. or is that ?

Yes, I do know quite a bit about the bike, much of it the hard way, the rest learned here from others or just reading.

I am the type of person who will look over any vehicle I have carefully and in detail, just to know as much as I can about it's workings, and always get a service manual and speed read through it pretty completely just so I know how things work. I have always been very curious about how anything works. Even in my pre-teen years I was the neighborhood "Mr. Fix It", repaired lawn mowers, appliances, some automotive repairs, etc. both at home and for neighbors. That lead me to become a machinist then tool and die maker, and then engineer. Had a somewhat insatiable quest for knowledge of how things are designed and work. My dad taught me a lot as soon as I knew a wrench from a screwdriver. Of course that meant he sometimes had to help me put something back together that was never broken in the first place. The last three decades I have been a manufacturing system and automation machine designer.

The LT was no different. Pretty much read the service manual through before I even had to do anything to the bike. That way, when something happens I pretty much know what it is, and what is likely to be required for me to fix it.

I like being able to drive or ride down the highway, and visualize how every little individual part of the vehicle is working together to do what I ask of it.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #15 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 1:09 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
I like being able to drive or ride down the highway, and visualize how every little individual part of the vehicle is working together to do what I ask of it.
Yep, I know exactly what you mean.

But it's also your willingness to share what you've learned, and to help others understand that sets you apart. We're lucky to have you as part of this group, and glad that you're still hanging around here.

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post #16 of 17 Old Mar 31st, 2006, 3:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
There is no "fork" on these like on cars. The throwout bearing is a VERY small ball thrust bearing (only about 10MM diameter) in the front of the slave cylinder piston, the actuating rod that goes through the tranny main shaft to the clutch spins with the clutch, and that little bearing is all there is to keep the piston from spinning with it. That is the dumbest engineering on the bike in my opinion.

Unfortunately, there is no room in front of the swing arm to make the assembly sit further back and allow more room for a thrust bearing with better radial retention of the stationary race, so only the piston seal resists the rotation of the piston.
Hard to see that in the BMW Service CD pics.. thanks, Dave.. now I know I can throw that part away.. =)P

...............
J.M.J...
Dcn Channing

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post #17 of 17 Old Apr 1st, 2006, 6:53 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolman
Still pretty new to the KLT (only about 1000 miles under my belt). I do have, what's probably, a stupid question.

If you hold the brake in at a stop light, does this prematurely wear out the ABS/Servo brake pump? Just wondering since I'm very congnizent of this at stop lights, since I can hear the pump running. The pumps sounds very normal, it's just that I can hear it.....so it just got me wondering if I'm gonna wear it out too soon.

Sorry fo he dumb question.

no question is dumb, well ok most aren;t <g>, anyhow my abs had problems when the bike was new, but now after another 100k since it was replaced I have not had a issue, and I just about alway's hold the brake keep the bike in first clutch in, just in case of a someone coming up hard on me, it gives me a advantage to get way from a rear ender,

i figure if it is causeing a tad wear so be it, it;s a price to pay to be prepared in case of rear ender!

Tom

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