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post #1 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 7:39 am Thread Starter
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100 LL Avgas non ethanol

I mix this with 90 octane non ethanol and run it in my LT. Will this harm anything in the engine?
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post #2 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 8:30 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

You might be the first to know!
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post #3 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 8:40 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

I seriously doubt it.

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post #4 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 8:50 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by eremite06
I mix this with 90 octane non ethanol and run it in my LT. Will this harm anything in the engine?
100 low lead is not lead free. I've seen the lead deposits on pistons and valves of my Cessna. What are the effects on the bike's catalytic converter? Why not use premium unleaded as called for by BMW? I don't have a clue but some of our aircraft mechanic friends may chime in here.

Bruce
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post #5 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 8:56 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

If you have a cat on the bike you will plug it up.
Lead content on 100LL Avgas has a higher lead content than automotive fuel back in the day that lead was still in our fuel. If you were around back then the lead in automotive fuel fouled up spark plugs and left lead deposits all over the combustion chamber. You should have done your research before putting Avgas in your bike. GET IT OUT ASAP.

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post #6 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 10:19 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

If you run it consistently it will damage your cat and pretty much screw up your valves/valve seats - but I don't think a tank of your "witches brew" will harm anything. Your engine was DESIGNED by ENGINEERS to run on unleaded gasoline.

BTW, that cat is a $2200.00 part. It has lots of Unobtanium in it.

I guess my only question is what are you trying to accomplish by mixing in Avgas?


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post #7 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 10:23 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
BTW, that cat is a $2200.00 part. It has lots of Unobtanium in it.
I have a big ol pile of Unobtanium in my pole barn. I am not sharing it though......

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post #8 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 10:32 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Your engine was DESIGNED by ENGINEERS to run on unleaded gasoline.
I agree with your post in full, but I had to chuckle at the above-quoted portion.

Same bunch of engineers who designed the cowbell? The FD assembly process? The brake lines? Pre-05 throttle cables? Those guys?

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post #9 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 10:43 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

I can think of NO reason to run AvGas in the LT. It will likely cause you much grief if you do very much of it, as stated by someone else, 100LL has a much higher lead content than what they stopped selling for automotive use. Aviation piston engines were designed many decades ago, with very high lead content fuel in mind. LL has reduced that content to about the minimum the old engine designs can handle, but it is still higher than the automotive fuels were.

I agree with the previous statement, "Get it out, NOW".

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post #10 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 10:54 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

get the lead out.

Just Go
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post #11 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 11:24 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Think about it this way, the engines that the 100LL is used for are working on 1930's technology complete with carburetors, manual mixture control, magnetos, leather piston seals (okay, maybe not quite but you get the idea). I have no doubt that 100LL is a better fuel than the ethanol crap that is dispensed at the gas station, just not good for a 21st century engine and systems.

One other concern that probably is nothing more than a conscience concern, but technically it is probably illegal to use 100LL as you are not paying any of the mandated taxes. I know they check truckers tanks, but at 50 mpg they probably aren't going to waste time checking too many LT tanks for contraband fuel
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post #12 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 12:20 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by copperstatetour
Think about it this way, the engines that the 100LL is used for are working on 1930's technology complete with carburetors, manual mixture control, magnetos, leather piston seals (okay, maybe not quite but you get the idea). I have no doubt that 100LL is a better fuel than the ethanol crap that is dispensed at the gas station, just not good for a 21st century engine and systems.

One other concern that probably is nothing more than a conscience concern, but technically it is probably illegal to use 100LL as you are not paying any of the mandated taxes. I know they check truckers tanks, but at 50 mpg they probably aren't going to waste time checking too many LT tanks for contraband fuel
You do pay tax, a lot of tax on Avgas. The taxes just go to the aviation trust fund ( read general tax fund). They all really end up in the same black hole in DC.
As far as diesel, it's a difference between Ag( less tax) use and the gas station variety( more tax).

If you have an older 70's 2 stroke that requires premo gas, then use the 100 LL.

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post #13 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 1:05 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyK12LT
You do pay tax, a lot of tax on Avgas. The taxes just go to the aviation trust fund ( read general tax fund). They all really end up in the same black hole in DC....
I don't know about other states but in AZ avgas state tax is $.05/gal vs $.19/gal on auto gas, I think the AZ dept of revenue would have something to say about that. Some states don't even tax avgas, last I knew only about 18 or 19 did.
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post #14 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 1:37 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

I forgot to mention that the price point makes no sense either; Avgas is $5.50 per gal. and even higher in the big cities. The older low compression airplanes do run well on auto fuel and the EAA has obtained approval for using lead free auto gas as an STC since 1964.

Bruce
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post #15 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 2:25 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by beartooth
I forgot to mention that the price point makes no sense either; Avgas is $5.50 per gal. and even higher in the big cities. The older low compression airplanes do run well on auto fuel and the EAA has obtained approval for using lead free auto gas as an STC since 1964.

Bruce
Here is a link to some additional information on use of auto fuel in aviation for anyone interested, this topic is kind of equivalent to the tire discussions we see here on the forum

I think the cost of AvGas is more based on distribution and production ratios but that doesn't stop it from making you think you are getting a bargain when you fill up your car or moto at ~$4.00 a gallon
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post #16 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 6:50 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by eremite06
I mix this with 90 octane non ethanol and run it in my LT. Will this harm anything in the engine?
Not likely to hurt the engine. The high lead will ruin the catcon almost immediately and probably will foul the plugs over time. And burning leaded gas is obviously very illegal in the US.

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post #17 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 6:52 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by beartooth
100 low lead is not lead free. I've seen the lead deposits on pistons and valves of my Cessna. What are the effects on the bike's catalytic converter? Why not use premium unleaded as called for by BMW? I don't have a clue but some of our aircraft mechanic friends may chime in here.

Bruce
It not only is no lead-free, but 100LL has about 4 times the lead that the old leaded autogas had!!

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post #18 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 8:22 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Is this the new oil thread? (Running and ducking.) INCOMING!

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post #19 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 9:16 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouter-50
Is this the new oil thread? (Running and ducking.) INCOMING!
Only if you can't tell oil from gasoline!

So, is it?

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post #20 of 35 Old Oct 29th, 2012, 9:33 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Only if you can't tell oil from gasoline!

So, is it?
Yep...

I been running a "blenderized" concoction of refried beans, corn silk, soy bean cake, Roma tomatoes and shot of Jack Daniels....

Smoooooth..... Beats that wanna be oil brand by a mile...



Oh... and a pint of Grey Goose in the tank just to thin out the mix... NICE!!!!

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post #21 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 9:06 am Thread Starter
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

My bad.....actually didn't realize or notice the LL meant it had lead in it. Have run it in my Yamaha Road Star with high compression pistons and it runs like a raped ape!! This stuff is actually used by airboats in our area of Florida.

I'll run it all out of my bikes and stick with the 90 octane nonethanol.

Thanks all, for the info!
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post #22 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 9:43 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by beartooth
100 low lead is not lead free. I've seen the lead deposits on pistons and valves of my Cessna. What are the effects on the bike's catalytic converter? Why not use premium unleaded as called for by BMW? I don't have a clue but some of our aircraft mechanic friends may chime in here.

Bruce
I've leaned out a rough running engine and you could actually smell the lead burning off. I'm not sure I'd run it in a motorcycle.

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post #23 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 9:47 am
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Here's my observation. I've seen a good many aircraft for sale that boast "automotive gas conversion". I haven't seen any automobiles that boast a "aviation gas conversion".

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post #24 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 12:29 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Lets keep it simple.

Unless it has wings and flies in the air do NOT use Avgas.

Next question will be can I use aviation grade oil in my BMW?

No!

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post #25 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 1:24 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

My observations are... Ethanol doesn't seem to bother the LT.
We've had it in our gas for a few years here. I havn't heard of anything bad happening yet.
Av gas Will crap up your spark plugs & probably damage your cat.
Exhaust might smell like rotten eggs.

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post #26 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 1:24 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6speedTi
Lets keep it simple.

Unless it has wings and flies in the air do NOT use Avgas.
Umm, it has tipover wings, and after a ride up 87A following Foiler a couple weeks ago I would say it flies
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post #27 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 1:32 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhawk
M
Av gas Will crap up your spark plugs & probably damage your cat.
And no one wants to have to fix a damaged cat...

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post #28 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 3:18 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by eremite06
My bad.....actually didn't realize or notice the LL meant it had lead in it. Have run it in my Yamaha Road Star with high compression pistons and it runs like a raped ape!! This stuff is actually used by airboats in our area of Florida.

I'll run it all out of my bikes and stick with the 90 octane nonethanol.

Thanks all, for the info!
Many airboats use aircraft engines that can't be re-certified for flight, or would be too expensive to do so...

However, at 550 hp this marine V8 bad boy would certainly be adequate to swing a prop:

http://www.pcmengines.com/XS-550/
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post #29 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 6:23 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by eremite06
My bad.....actually didn't realize or notice the LL meant it had lead in it. Have run it in my Yamaha Road Star with high compression pistons and it runs like a raped ape!! This stuff is actually used by airboats in our area of Florida.

I'll run it all out of my bikes and stick with the 90 octane nonethanol.

Thanks all, for the info!
Many air boats use airplane engines so that would be appropriate.

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post #30 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 6:30 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Many airboats use aircraft engines that can't be re-certified for flight, or would be too expensive to do so...

However, at 550 hp this marine V8 bad boy would certainly be adequate to swing a prop:

http://www.pcmengines.com/XS-550/
Well, probably not. It appears these engines are made to run at 5,000 give or take. Not very good for swinging a prop. Airplane engines run at 2800 RPM or less for a reason.

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post #31 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 11:02 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

If you are in posession of a 63 chevy 409 supersport the 100LL is the shit, just plan on buying lots of sparkplugs but probably not good for your LT
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post #32 of 35 Old Oct 30th, 2012, 11:16 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

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Originally Posted by Voyager
Well, probably not. It appears these engines are made to run at 5,000 give or take. Not very good for swinging a prop. Airplane engines run at 2800 RPM or less for a reason.
Aw shucks, all 'ya need is a pulley or two.

My bet is these inflatable rescue boats use a cog belt drive similar to this one from Roush racing... I'll bet it would be an A-ticket ride going UP a river!

I've got one on the airship I fly too, this particular belt is Kevlar and made by Continental.
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post #33 of 35 Old Oct 31st, 2012, 7:05 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Aw shucks, all 'ya need is a pulley or two.

My bet is these inflatable rescue boats use a cog belt drive similar to this one from Roush racing... I'll bet it would be an A-ticket ride going UP a river!

I've got one on the airship I fly too, this particular belt is Kevlar and made by Continental.
Yes, a few airplanes have used reduction drives, but only a very few were all that successful. And not many belt drives will handle 500 HP!

Better to get a 500 HP airplane engine designed to run at prop speeds and also make TONS of torque in the process.

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post #34 of 35 Old Oct 31st, 2012, 7:49 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Yes, a few airplanes have used reduction drives, but only a very few were all that successful. And not many belt drives will handle 500 HP!

Better to get a 500 HP airplane engine designed to run at prop speeds and also make TONS of torque in the process.
Yep, less is more.

I just bought a new washing machine with a direct drive motor. No tranny - thank God. It has a 10 year warranty on the motor - with a large, very nice looking 3D badge right on the front advertising it.

I've never been so excited about a washing machine in my life.

It also runs on 100LL.


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post #35 of 35 Old Oct 31st, 2012, 8:34 pm
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Re: 100 LL Avgas non ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Yep, less is more.

I just bought a new washing machine with a direct drive motor. No tranny - thank God. It has a 10 year warranty on the motor - with a large, very nice looking 3D badge right on the front advertising it.

I've never been so excited about a washing machine in my life.

It also runs on 100LL.
But does it make 500 HP?

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