Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out.. - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 16 Old Sep 23rd, 2012, 2:14 pm Thread Starter
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Exclamation Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

I'm sure this issue has been covered before, but thought I would bring it to light again, knowing that a lot of the LT's on the road today are getting pretty old.

A lot of times when I try to figure out what the solution to a problem is I tend to think the worst - but always try to first come back to the simple things that make a motor function properly.

This time I was on the hunt for something that was causing all sorts of issues. The first thing I do to get a "heartbeat" is by reading the plugs. I guess that comes from my history with two strokes. After pulling the plugs and being happy with the color and condition I went to fuel supply. It didn't take a lot of thinking that my fuel filter might be plugged since it hasn't been changed ever, and this is on my second '01 LT (bought used) with only 30K on the clock. My first LT made it to 140K and was still running strong when I parted with it.

After pulling the suspect filter I found something even more interesting - the very small section of hose that goes from the pump to the filter had a noticeable hole in it, not to mention the entire hose was extremely porous and ready to fall apart. Strangely enough the larger U shaped hose exiting the filter looked good - and could probably have gone quite a bit longer.

Why did the small hose look so bad vs. the larger hose? Pressure! Since the fuel filter was probably at it's minimum flow limits there was MUCH more pressure between the pump and the filter, causing increased HEAT and contributing to the hose degradation. All of this could have been easily assessed up front by doing a simple fuel pressure check - no doubt it would have been very, very low. I would not be surprised if this could cause a pump failure as well since it had to work so much harder - and $366.00 to replace!

My LT now runs like it should and fires up within one second, hot or cold.

Just food for thought - it pays to do your maintenance on a timely basis. ....and, when you hear hoof beats don't go looking for zebras.

(The new set up shows 5/16" hose and standard fi clamps plus a Gates uni-coil. This also saved a whopping $55.86 (numbers 4 and 6 on the attached diagram) for the two OEM hoses. Just remember to tighten the clamps so that they are just snug.)
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Last edited by RonKMiller; Sep 23rd, 2012 at 2:22 pm.
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post #2 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 3:10 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

I hope that wasn't regular fuel injection hose off a spool.

53 MPG and life just keeps getting better

2001 Triumph Sprint ST [sold]
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post #3 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 6:51 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
I'm sure this issue has been covered before, but thought I would bring it to light again, knowing that a lot of the LT's on the road today are getting pretty old.

A lot of times when I try to figure out what the solution to a problem is I tend to think the worst - but always try to first come back to the simple things that make a motor function properly.

This time I was on the hunt for something that was causing all sorts of issues. The first thing I do to get a "heartbeat" is by reading the plugs. I guess that comes from my history with two strokes. After pulling the plugs and being happy with the color and condition I went to fuel supply. It didn't take a lot of thinking that my fuel filter might be plugged since it hasn't been changed ever, and this is on my second '01 LT (bought used) with only 30K on the clock. My first LT made it to 140K and was still running strong when I parted with it.

After pulling the suspect filter I found something even more interesting - the very small section of hose that goes from the pump to the filter had a noticeable hole in it, not to mention the entire hose was extremely porous and ready to fall apart. Strangely enough the larger U shaped hose exiting the filter looked good - and could probably have gone quite a bit longer.

Why did the small hose look so bad vs. the larger hose? Pressure! Since the fuel filter was probably at it's minimum flow limits there was MUCH more pressure between the pump and the filter, causing increased HEAT and contributing to the hose degradation. All of this could have been easily assessed up front by doing a simple fuel pressure check - no doubt it would have been very, very low. I would not be surprised if this could cause a pump failure as well since it had to work so much harder - and $366.00 to replace!

My LT now runs like it should and fires up within one second, hot or cold.

Just food for thought - it pays to do your maintenance on a timely basis. ....and, when you hear hoof beats don't go looking for zebras.

(The new set up shows 5/16" hose and standard fi clamps plus a Gates uni-coil. This also saved a whopping $55.86 (numbers 4 and 6 on the attached diagram) for the two OEM hoses. Just remember to tighten the clamps so that they are just snug.)
Gates Unicoil, Where did you find that? I love it. I had the same issue on my 2000. Mine did not look that bad. Do you have lots of alcohol in your fuel?

Thanks, Robert,

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1994 R1100RSL (wife's)
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post #4 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 8:40 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Why did the small hose look so bad vs. the larger hose? Pressure! Since the fuel filter was probably at it's minimum flow limits there was MUCH more pressure between the pump and the filter, causing increased HEAT and contributing to the hose degradation.
I agree that pressure is the most likely cause, the on off cycling would stress this part much more than the down side of the filter.

But, there is always a but , I would think that with this part emersed in fluid that a heat contribution would so small as to not be measurable.

I can't belive I disagree with Ron.

Found that neat coil sold here

John Baker

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post #5 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 9:34 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Nice work. That Gates Unicoil is pretty neat...never saw it before.

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post #6 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 9:42 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

+1 Agree with everything but that HEAT created by the pressure. There isn't compressed air to heat up and quite a lot of cooling liquid all over...

Born to be wild so why not

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post #7 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 9:58 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

I found a piece of rubber fuel line while cleaning my garage. Is it safe to say that these LT's don't take any special rubber fuel line that attach to the filter in the tank? I am aware of the using the stainless FI style hose clamps.

Bill (aka Chipper)
Elk Grove Ca.
2014 K1600GTL-E
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post #8 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 10:25 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Unfortunately not all fuel hose is rated for immersion in fuel. "Normal" fuel hose has an inner liner that can withstand the chemical attack from the fuel constituents, but the exterior has no such protection. Hose rated for immersion service also has an outer cover and will typically have the word "Immersion" or "Submersible" and the specification "SAE30R10" printed on the outside. Since the hose in the LT tank is immersed, you need to use fuel hose rated for "submersible" service, and you'll find the cost is way more than the normal FI hose.

André Strydom
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post #9 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 10:37 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Thank you Andre for the information, I will check the outer hose for the information that you provided....
Thanks again,

Bill (aka Chipper)
Elk Grove Ca.
2014 K1600GTL-E
2009 K1200LT (BLACK)-Traded In
2004 RTP Work Bike(Retired)
2002 LTE Totaled Aug/2011)
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post #10 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 11:45 am Thread Starter
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by andres
Unfortunately not all fuel hose is rated for immersion in fuel. "Normal" fuel hose has an inner liner that can withstand the chemical attack from the fuel constituents, but the exterior has no such protection. Hose rated for immersion service also has an outer cover and will typically have the word "Immersion" or "Submersible" and the specification "SAE30R10" printed on the outside. Since the hose in the LT tank is immersed, you need to use fuel hose rated for "submersible" service, and you'll find the cost is way more than the normal FI hose.
THAT is an excellent point and something I should have mentioned. Here's a good primer on the subject, and I've been a huge fan of Gate's products for years:

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...ocation_id=541


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post #11 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 12:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbaker15
I agree that pressure is the most likely cause, the on off cycling would stress this part much more than the down side of the filter.

But, there is always a but , I would think that with this part emersed in fluid that a heat contribution would so small as to not be measurable.

I can't belive I disagree with Ron.

Found that neat coil sold here
Granted, with the gas cooling the exterior of this hose this is probably nominal, but whenever there is an increase in pressure there will be an increase in heat. Generally speaking it does not take much of an increase in heat to dramatically accelerate degradation. Over time it will contribute to earlier failure.

Besides the increased pressure and heat all of the exotic solvents they are putting in today's "reformulated" gasoline would also accelerate degradation. Ethanol is the prime suspect here but there are dozens of other chemicals that no doubt act as catalysts too...

The best policy would be to replace these hoses with SAE R10 hose every time the fuel filter is replaced - even if they look OK.

All I know is that after the grief required to replace the stoopid $34.00 OEM filter I will come up with an exterior mounted solution for the next change and install a $5.00 Fram every two years instead. It shouldn't cost $100.00 and half a day's labor to install a fuel filter.

No doubt someone has already done this.


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post #12 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 7:49 pm
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
All I know is that after the grief required to replace the stoopid $34.00 OEM filter I will come up with an exterior mounted solution for the next change and install a $5.00 Fram every two years instead. It shouldn't cost $100.00 and half a day's labor to install a fuel filter.
I'd pay 5 bucks to see that...


Uncle Mark

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post #13 of 16 Old Sep 24th, 2012, 8:55 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

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I'd pay 5 bucks to see that...

You're NOT going to make me take the tupperware off yet again?

For another fin I'll show you how it can be done in about two minutes with dzus fasteners too!

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post #14 of 16 Old Jan 6th, 2013, 7:15 pm
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

I was wondering if anybody would use these hoses inside thier tank;by all the specs this kit should work;( 15 dollar kit).
www.euromotoelectrics.com. Search-Part# FP-HoseKit

Gary
2003 K1200LT
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post #15 of 16 Old Jan 7th, 2013, 10:03 am
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
You're NOT going to make me take the tupperware off yet again?

For another fin I'll show you how it can be done in about two minutes with dzus fasteners too!
Look like the same fasteners that HD uses to secure their side cases. Does that make the Hundred Dollar fasteners?

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
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post #16 of 16 Old Jun 2nd, 2013, 11:18 am Thread Starter
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Re: Hard and very slow starting, stumbles, lack of power? Check this out..

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryEm
I was wondering if anybody would use these hoses inside thier tank;by all the specs this kit should work;( 15 dollar kit).
www.euromotoelectrics.com. Search-Part# FP-HoseKit

Gary
2003 K1200LT
Listen up homies: I think Gary has the ULTIMATE solution!!

1. Inexpensive: $7.50 PER REPAIR (it looks like enough hose to do two repairs) beats me by $22.50 and BMW by about - oh $40.00 or so.

2. Easy to install: Just trim one end long, and one end short, save the leftover piece to connect the pump and filter. (I'll bet you could gently heat the short section with a hair dryer or heat gun on low once installed to get the slight bend)

3. Durable - it meets the standard for submersible hose - 'nuff said.

4. ..and a LOT less hassle then hunting up a 1 foot section of submersible hose and the uni-coil. They're BOTH not easy to find. Nothing like having it show up on your doorstep instead of running around town looking for parts.

I guess the only question is does it work? I'm tempted to pull my tank off again - umm, maybe not. - to see if it does.

Dood, I wish you found that last fall before I wrestled with that hose. My bet is that it will work great.


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