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post #1 of 27 Old Sep 13th, 2012, 9:29 pm Thread Starter
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Rear Brake stopped working.

Hey guys: When I was dropping my wife off at the Midway airport terminal yesterday on my 2000 LT, (and she carried on just a full "Kathy Bag") I suddenly noticed that I could push the rear brake pedal down for its full travel distance; with no resistance and no braking effect. The ABS lights still function as if everything were alright. I rode it home okay using the front brake alone. The rear brake fluid reservoir is still full. The hoses appear in tact. When I use the front brake, I doubt that the rear brake works with the front, as with ABS, it is supposed to do. Does it sound like air suddenly got trapped in the rear brake system? Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks.

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
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post #2 of 27 Old Sep 13th, 2012, 11:44 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Do a complete flush of the rear brake, there has to be air somewhere.

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post #3 of 27 Old Sep 14th, 2012, 4:05 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I agree with the flush yet it sounds like the rear master cyl. may be faulty. Unsure what the failure rate is for these bikes but when I read your post it sounds thats what it made me think of. Try separating the pads from the rotor (like you were going to replace them) and see if when applying the rear brakes the caliper closes the gap back.
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post #4 of 27 Old Sep 14th, 2012, 7:03 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

perhaps the rod which pushes on the piston inside the cylinder has become detached from the pedal

Gary
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1992 K1100LT
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post #5 of 27 Old Sep 14th, 2012, 8:14 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45
perhaps the rod which pushes on the piston inside the cylinder has become detached from the pedal
That's the first thing I would check.

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post #6 of 27 Old Sep 14th, 2012, 9:11 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Happened on two of my LT's - rear master cyl. may be faulty.
It's on the back side of your foot peg, I think I paid Beemer bone yard $25 for one.
I would replace the brake lines with it, go with a stainless lines.

John & Cathy
Northern CA
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post #7 of 27 Old Sep 14th, 2012, 8:01 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

The brakes are not linked in 1999, 2000, and part of 2001

Flushing the rear system is easy; you can push the brake down with one hand and with the other open the bleed screw at the same time. It can be a PITA to get at the reserve cap. Definately need a a long neck funnel.

When you take the top off the rear reserve there might be a cap-like device on top of the fluid? I seem to remember it there but it might not be there?

There are two bleeders on the rear brake; rem to do them both.

Bob

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post #8 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 8:24 am Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

The master cylinder rod is still connected to the end of the footpedal. My clymer manual almost goes out of its way to make the bleeding job sound difficult. I'm gonna try it any way today. Are there any really good threads in here about doing it? What I'm wondering from you veterans of this is this; could a perfectly runnning rear master cylinder/brake system just suddenly get enough air in it to just all at once fail, to be at the place where the foot pedal goes through its full travel range with no resistance/ braking effect and still be good? Is there any decent chance that the master cylinder is still good? What kind of special tools do I need?

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
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post #9 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 8:33 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Air would make the pedal feel spongy imo.
Could be a bad o ring on the rod inside the master cylinder.
You feel no resistance at all?
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post #10 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 8:37 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Are you sure it's full of fluid?
The reservoir can be stained and look full.
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post #11 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 8:47 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCCCC1
The master cylinder rod is still connected to the end of the footpedal. My clymer manual almost goes out of its way to make the bleeding job sound difficult. I'm gonna try it any way today. Are there any really good threads in here about doing it? What I'm wondering from you veterans of this is this; could a perfectly runnning rear master cylinder/brake system just suddenly get enough air in it to just all at once fail, to be at the place where the foot pedal goes through its full travel range with no resistance/ braking effect and still be good? Is there any decent chance that the master cylinder is still good? What kind of special tools do I need?
It is rather unusual for a working brake system it get air in it, air is usually introduced when you are either replacing parts or replacing fluid. I would suspect that the master cylinder it faulty. A total failure like this is also unusual and that is why some suggested something is disconnected. So make sure there is fluid and no leaks and nothing is disconnected. If all is well with those checks then pump the brakes to see if you can get braking. If that fails then it is most likely the rear master cylinder and you will need a rebuild kit. I have not done a rebuild on this system but other brake systems I have worked on do not need special tools.

So my guess is that the master is toast and you need to repair or replace.

John Baker

2005 BMW K1200LT
1979 Suzuki GS1000E
1978 Honda CB350
1975 Suzuki GT380

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post #12 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 9:04 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Corrosion between friction material and backing plate on pad could lead to sudden detachment of friction material, which can lead to full depression of pedal with no braking for several pedal strokes, until the piston travels far enough to push the metal backing plate against the rotor.
Chances are you have already pressed the rear brake pedal enough to eliminate this as a possibility. It would seem more likely to happen on a car or truck operated through the winter with salt and slush to promote the corrosion, than on a bike which usually doesn't see that type of environment. Just something for consideration anyway.

Ross
K1200LT (99)
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post #13 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 9:59 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

master cylinder I have had fail on motorcycles have all had the piston fail to return to the out position because of dirt or corrosion, no stroke no brakes, I think with the rear IF that is what is happening in your case replace the complete unit - the handlebar one is rebuildable, beemerboneyard sells the kit

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
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post #14 of 27 Old Sep 15th, 2012, 9:40 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I know of one bike that had a rear MC fail at CCR a few years ago and the supporting dealer replaced it and the rear flex line blew out from the pressure from the new MC. So the MC can just go bad.

Bleeding or flushing is pretty easy just keep the reservoir full and open a bleed port on the caliper and hold a length of tubing (3 ft or so) above the caliper and pump away. If the MC is bad nothing will happen. If the MC is good an air was in the line it will show up as bubbles in the tubing. As long as you hold the line up the bubbles will rise to the top. When he tubing gets full close the bleeder and drain the tubing. Repeat untill all air is gone.

John
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post #15 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 10:30 am
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

i love how john can make what seems difficult so simple. i like the hose trick.i have the pickel jar system but dont use the vacume pump on the bikes
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post #16 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 12:03 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I have just tried a lot of different ways to do this. I have a mason jar with brass tubing soldered to the lid for the vacuum method. My favorite is the SpeedBleeder bag and hose. They last forever and are easy to elevate making it a one man operation. The tubing was just a way to the same thing only you can find the tubing just about anywhere and it requires no special tools. I like to keep it simple.

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 114 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #17 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 2:53 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

John; I really value your input highly. I have a vacation scheduled for next week. I was supposed to leave this friday, sept 21 for the tail of the dragon. I am desperate!!! I need to order a master cylinder, get speedy delivery, figure out what I'm doing, and get her going again by thurs night or i"m taking a car. Those 4 wheel things suck on roads like that!!! The BMW shops don't even open till tomorrow @ 9am. None of them have openings to actually do the job. I work days this week also. Greg Machak

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
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post #18 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 3:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I just did your idea John with the clear tubing. Pushing the pedal down did send brake fluid up the clear tube. There were 3 very small bubbles (about 1 mm dia) in about 2 feet of fluid up the tube. I asume that means that the master cylinder is shot. Are you saying that I should replace the brake hose going back to that caliper also?

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
BMW MOA# 180321
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post #19 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 4:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I just went back out to the bike. I found that the single brake line going back to the rear caliper has a pinhole leak right where the rubber line takes a 45 angle going back, that's right above the steel portion where the banjo bolt goes into it. this is the one right behind the right passenger peg. I suspect that the rear master cylinder is okay; It's making enough pressure to make quite a little jet of fluid shoot against the right saddle bag. As long as I keep the reservoir full of fluid the rear brake actually works. I apologize for not getting out the whole picture earlier. Does any one else make hoses that will work?

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
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post #20 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 6:26 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I am not going to tell you it is OK to ride like that but keep in mind that 95% of your stopping power comes from the front brake. The rear is good for low speed speed control. Considering the age of the bike and the brake line age (12-13 years) now would be a good time to replace them all with a Spieglers kit.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 114 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #21 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 8:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Is there any chance that this one; 20" long brake line with banjo bolt holes at both ends is a thing that is fairly "generic" and could be bought at any auto parts store? Does the whole rear BRAKE CALIPER need to come off after I replace the hose in order to push the brake pads in with wedges in order to get all the air out of the system or can I just leave it in place on the disc and pump the air out with the foot pedal?

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
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post #22 of 27 Old Sep 16th, 2012, 9:05 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

You might be able to get one made locally, look for someone that make hydraulic lines. At least that would get you on your trip and you could replace the remainder after you get back.

I would be a little cautious about the renmaining lines as they will now be getting full pressure. Test, Test in a safe place.

John Baker

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1979 Suzuki GS1000E
1978 Honda CB350
1975 Suzuki GT380
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post #23 of 27 Old Sep 17th, 2012, 12:18 am
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Wink Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

If and when you find a replacement hose, you can bleed the system without removing the rear caliper. There are two bleed ports on the rear caliper, but either one will suffice to remove most of the air. Both should be bled if time permits though.

Good Luck!
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCCCC1
Is there any chance that this one; 20" long brake line with banjo bolt holes at both ends is a thing that is fairly "generic" and could be bought at any auto parts store? Does the whole rear BRAKE CALIPER need to come off after I replace the hose in order to push the brake pads in with wedges in order to get all the air out of the system or can I just leave it in place on the disc and pump the air out with the foot pedal?

John & Marilyn Fisher
'00 K1200LTC "Katie"
'95 Triumph "Tigger"
'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
Hillsboro, Oregon

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post #24 of 27 Old Sep 17th, 2012, 10:22 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

It is common that these rubber lines spring leaks. It's not hard to replace both lines, just time consuming.

There many be a place near you that can make the brake lines, if, and only, if you bring the lines from your LT to them.

Rem that you have to use DOT4; that brake fluid eats paint. Bleeding the lines is easy. You can push down on the rear brake lever and turn the nipple while you push down. The same for the front brake line. The same for the clutch.

You will need a funel with a long neck.

The stock brembo brakes and the stock clutch lines have these nasty things called grub screws. I replaced them with "speed-bleeders". The LT uses two different size bleeders. While the speed bleeders would make it easier, since we can reach all of the nipples while pushing levers, the bleeders are not necessary. I had to put vice grips on the grub screws along with a lot of pressure to brake the screws free from the lock-tight.

The clear hose makes it easy to capture the fluid and monitor its color.

When you squeeze either the clutch or front brake lever, fluid will fountain from the reservoir. Make sure you have clean rags handy. You can cover the reservoir, make sure air can get in. Or, as someone on this site suggested, place a quarter in the reservoir over the small hole.

The directions want you to put your bike on the center stand, and then to loosen the reservoir so that they are level with respect to the ground. The full lines inside the reservoir are for when you follow the directions.

It's a good idea to have a few extra washers for the banjo bolts.

I made myself a BIG!!!! problem when I replaced the brake lines. For some reason I though the clutch line should have the same resistance at it's lever as the brake line--NOT!!!

While you are at it, find the wire-tie on the rear brake line that digs into the wire from the rear sending unit, and get rid of it. look up intermittent speedometer speedo.

Enjoy the Dragon with perfectly working brakes. You can run most of the curves on the Dragon in second gear at high RPMS.

If you do not already6 have the habit of reducing foot pressure on the pegs when they start scraping, rem to try it. And, yes the tupperware will start to scrape shortly after you let the scraping peg to push your foot up.

Best from Tucson
Bob

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post #25 of 27 Old Sep 18th, 2012, 9:08 am Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Thanks a bunch guys. I'm learning as I go. Your help is actually better than my confusing Clymers manual. I ordered a set of spieglers stainless mesh brake lines. Be here tomorrow. I found no close equivalant brake hose in AUTO parts stores and nobody any where near me makes them. BMW country side could get an OEM rubber one.......too late for the ride. For now I put heat shrink and electrical tape with panduit ty wraps over the leak in the old hose and bled/refilled the rear brake line. Brakes work great...for now. Just have to get me through about a day and a half till I put the brand new SS one on. Then Friday.....I'm off. 2nd gear on the Dragon curves, huh. Greg

'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
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post #26 of 27 Old Oct 7th, 2012, 7:42 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

I really apreciate all of your input on my last minute brake problem. I ordered a set of Speigler brake hoses (about $240) and stayed up fairly late on Thurs. Sept. 20th replacing the rear one, flushing and bleeding it and then just packing up the bike to leave right after work on the next day, Fri. 9-21. The bike ran great!! After picking up my wife in Atlanta GA we rode "The tail of the Dragon". See attached pic's. Put 14k on it this summer. Thoroughly enjoyed the privelidge of LT ing with my wife.
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'00 BMW K 1200LT, Basalt Grau with Shark tones. My Only bike at present. 34K miles on it. Bought used in Oct. 2011.
BMW MOA# 180321

Last edited by NCCCC1; Oct 7th, 2012 at 10:17 pm.
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post #27 of 27 Old Oct 7th, 2012, 9:19 pm
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Re: Rear Brake stopped working.

Don't you know you are supposed to smile and wave at the cameraman as you're going through the Dragon! You were way too focused on the road ahead, what fun is that?
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