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post #1 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 7:32 am Thread Starter
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seeing were talking tires

looking for feedback on nitrogen instead of air.
i am getting ready to change tires on the lt. i have been reading some stuff about increased tire wear do to pressure not building up & cooler tread temp.
looking for feedback from those that use it re, inital pressures and wear
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post #2 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 7:43 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobst2
looking for feedback on nitrogen instead of air.
i am getting ready to change tires on the lt. i have been reading some stuff about increased tire wear do to pressure not building up & cooler tread temp.
looking for feedback from those that use it re, inital pressures and wear
Howdy, Bob - I did a quick search on Nitrogen in threads and there must be hunnerts of mentions. Too many to read thru - so I did a search on Nitrogen just in the thread 'titles' - easier reading, as there have been 6 threads or so from folks asking about nitrogen versus plain ole air. Click here for a quick tour. Best always.
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post #3 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 7:48 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Custom blend is the best. 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, 1% Argon.

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post #4 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 8:20 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwnahas
Custom blend is the best. 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, 1% Argon.
I agree, that is by far the most cost effective, and is readily available.

Just two words for the people that try and sell you 100% nitrogen: rip. off.

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post #5 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 9:24 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

isn't regular air 85% nitrogen anyway?
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post #6 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 9:26 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

I remember seeing, in the past, a few threads about nitrogen. This recent post got me wondering if N2O would work as well? At least with it, it your clutch of FD let go, you could laugh about it.

While searching around I found the following posts:

I am a chemical engineer turned chemistry teacher who worked in the rubber and plastic field for over 20 years. *The only issue with types of gases in the tires that I see are density and reactivity. Concerns for pressure fluctuations and other mechanical stability issues are pure garbage. *Lets address the density issue first: Lighter gases for the same pressures mean better fuel economy (i.e. less mass to move around). *However there is only about 26 grams of air in an inflated auto tire, about an ounce per tire. *Nitrogen is 96% the density of air and Nitrous Oxide is 50% more dense than air. *Helium, at 13% the mass of air, would save wieght, but it is a small atom and woule leak from the tire much faster (e.g. Think about how fast a helium balloon leaks vs. and air balloon). *You want to save fuel economy then clean out the trunk and throw away trash on the floor. *Now regarding reactivity; there is no concern; All the gases discussed gases are inert to tire rubber and unreactive. *Bottom line: use air. *

Read more: http://forums.motortrend.com/70/1071...#ixzz21GcLVMKL


Read it on an internet science blog so it must be true.

I am a licensed professional chemical engineer turned chemistry teacher who worked in the rubber and plastic field for over 20 years. *This migration you refer to is known as effusion and relates to the size of the gas molecule. *Oxygen and Nitrogen are almost the same size (thats why they are mixed so well in the air). *Nitrogen is actually a slightly smaller molecule than oxygen and therefore effuses faster. *Regarding the "retaining heat" issue; that is total garbage. *There is only about 26 grams of air in a tire anyway and gas is not ever considered to be a heat sink. *The amount of heat held by gas in a tire could not be even measured relative to the the heat of the tire rubber and metal wheel. *Heat is generated mostly by the brakes and a little from road friction and retained by solids. *All this heat is dissipated to the surrounding air through conduction and convection. *Tires don't rust and corrode; only the metal rims do and those materials are alloyed and coated to prevent oxidation. *The oxidation process is very slow and insignificant at the conditions run by automobile tires. *

There needs to be more science literacy in our population. *Add this text to the science blog. *

Read more: http://forums.motortrend.com/70/1071...#ixzz21GcSvufX

Damed ifin Iknow?

Best from Tucson
Bob

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post #7 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 9:59 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyga
isn't regular air 85% nitrogen anyway?
no...see post #3

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post #8 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 10:44 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

I am NOT a science person.

But here you go..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

Gas Volume
Nitrogen (N2) 780,840 ppmv (78.084%)
Oxygen (O2) 209,460 ppmv (20.946%)
Argon (Ar) 9,340 ppmv (0.9340%)
Carbon dioxide (CO2) 394.45 ppmv (0.039445%)
Neon (Ne) 18.18 ppmv (0.001818%)
Helium (He) 5.24 ppmv (0.000524%)
Methane (CH4) 1.79 ppmv (0.000179%)
Krypton (Kr) 1.14 ppmv (0.000114%)
Hydrogen (H2) 0.55 ppmv (0.000055%)
Nitrous oxide (N2O) 0.3 ppmv (0.00003%)
Carbon monoxide (CO) 0.1 ppmv (0.00001%)
Xenon (Xe) 0.09 ppmv (9×10−6%) (0.000009%)
Ozone (O3) 0.0 to 0.07 ppmv (0 to 7×10−6%)
Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) 0.02 ppmv (2×10−6%) (0.000002%)
Iodine (I2) 0.01 ppmv (1×10−6%) (0.000001%)
Ammonia (NH3) trace

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post #9 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 11:59 am
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Maybe just a whole lot of helium to reduce the weight? Put in enough and the bike will be a little lighter. Maybe get better mileage too! Not sure if it will help with the FD though.

Dano
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post #10 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 12:59 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

My understanding the use of nitrogen is not for weight savings but because it doesn't need time to heat and expand to operating temps. so you get better gas mileage because the tire filled with air is under-inflated until it heats. My question is: why do the shops that push nitrogen add the same pressure as they did with air? If I put in air, I put in 36# and the tire heats to 42. If they put in 36# of nitrogen then the tire pressure doesn't heat up and increase in temp. so is it under-inflated?

This info. didn't come from the internet but from my HVAC guy and Costco so you know it is right.

_____________

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post #11 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 2:08 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by alabrew

This info. didn't come from the internet but from my HVAC guy and Costco so you know it is right.
If it is not on the internet, can we trust it as being true? Everyone knows that they cannot post it on the web or send it in an email if it is not true.

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post #12 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:19 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleknight
I am NOT a science person.

But here you go..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

Gas Volume
Nitrogen (N2) 780,840 ppmv (78.084%)
Oxygen (O2) 209,460 ppmv (20.946%)
Argon (Ar) 9,340 ppmv (0.9340%)
Carbon dioxide (CO2) 394.45 ppmv (0.039445%)
Neon (Ne) 18.18 ppmv (0.001818%)
Helium (He) 5.24 ppmv (0.000524%)
Methane (CH4) 1.79 ppmv (0.000179%)
Krypton (Kr) 1.14 ppmv (0.000114%)
Hydrogen (H2) 0.55 ppmv (0.000055%)
Nitrous oxide (N2O) 0.3 ppmv (0.00003%)
Carbon monoxide (CO) 0.1 ppmv (0.00001%)
Xenon (Xe) 0.09 ppmv (9×10−6%) (0.000009%)
Ozone (O3) 0.0 to 0.07 ppmv (0 to 7×10−6%)
Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) 0.02 ppmv (2×10−6%) (0.000002%)
Iodine (I2) 0.01 ppmv (1×10−6%) (0.000001%)
Ammonia (NH3) trace
What no H2O Paul I can guarantee you this time of year when ever I put air in tires they get some H2O.

Dave Selvig
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post #13 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:48 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
What no H2O Paul I can guarantee you this time of year when ever I put air in tires they get some H2O.
Dave,

I think water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and they are in the list.

John Baker

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post #14 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 6:58 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbaker15
Dave,

I think water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and they are in the list.
Roger that John, I'm just messing with Paul .

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post #15 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 8:00 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

I think the way this all got started had something to do with NASA using nitrogen in the space shuttle tires because it held pressure better at the ultra-low temperatures in outer space. If it's good for the space shuttle, it must be great for my car. NOT.


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post #16 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 8:54 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
What no H2O Paul I can guarantee you this time of year when ever I put air in tires they get some H2O.

Darn DAVE,

EVERYONE knows this is the composition of dry atmosphere, by volume.

NOT WET atmosphere.

sheshhh!!

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2008 R1200GSA Dec'11 - March '12 (sold)
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post #17 of 24 Old Jul 21st, 2012, 10:09 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Nitrogen is used in many aircraft tires, mostly because it will not support combustion if the tire gets hot enough to burn (military/commercial aircraft). Secondly, if a tire bursts, it is much better to have a cloud of nitrogen around what may be a hot area than air. Also, some aircraft tires are at very high pressures, easy to do on a ramp with a nitrogen bottle, not so easy if a high pressure air compressor is needed.

Even many general aviation aircraft have nitrogen, because of the second reason above. Easy to cart a high pressure nitrogen bottle around for filling tires. The flying club I was in used a nitrogen cart to keep the tires of all the rental planes inflated.

The differences between air and nitrogen in automobile/motorcycle tires is miniscule at best.

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post #18 of 24 Old Jul 22nd, 2012, 1:44 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

I tried nitrogen in my new tires on the car for a year. I saw no improvement in gas mileage. They held pressure very good but I thought that was because of the fancy caps they put on the valve stems. I switched to air and use the fancy valve caps. The tires hold air pressure for a long time and gas mileage remains the same. To me nitrogen has no good reason to be used so I won't use it again.
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post #19 of 24 Old Jul 22nd, 2012, 2:18 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

From what I understand, it doesn't make much of a difference if you use air or nitrogen in your tires. What can make a big difference in tire Pressures is if you get fluid inside your tires. Like soppy water, stuff to get the tire on to the rim. When cold the fluid doesn't change things much. But as the tire heats up in use, the fluid changes into a gas. That makes the Pressure in the tire go up a lot more that it would have if it were dry inside the tire to start with.

I was taught to have 2LB higher Pressure in my tires when they are hot VS cold.
If you set your tire Pressure by going from cold to cold +2LB when hot, you can't always get a good number to start with. As the vaporized fluid makes more Pressure, they just hot air inside the tire.

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post #20 of 24 Old Jul 22nd, 2012, 3:31 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

I'm starting to like my idea more and more; carry around a bottle of N2O just to top things off every once in a while.

Sorta like Alfred E Newman--"What? Me worry?" (about the clutch and FD?)

"He was a foul caricature of himself, a man with no soul, no inner convictions, with the integrity of a hyena, and the style of a poison toad." H. S. Thompson
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post #21 of 24 Old Jul 22nd, 2012, 5:11 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver
Maybe just a whole lot of helium to reduce the weight? Put in enough and the bike will be a little lighter. Maybe get better mileage too! Not sure if it will help with the FD though.
Seems like somebody tried that with a little blimp called the Hindenberg.... We know how that worked out....

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post #22 of 24 Old Jul 22nd, 2012, 6:30 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver
Maybe just a whole lot of helium to reduce the weight? Put in enough and the bike will be a little lighter. Maybe get better mileage too! Not sure if it will help with the FD though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochinosucio
Seems like somebody tried that with a little blimp called the Hindenberg.... We know how that worked out....
That was hydrogen, silly. Airships changed to helium because it is inert and not generally explosive under normal atmospheric conditions.

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post #23 of 24 Old Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:38 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

To start, I did not every post here, so I am sorry if I am taking another swing at the dead horse.

Simply put, the volume of a given quantity of Nitrogen changes much less through temperature change than most other gasses.If the volume does not change, the pressure in your tire does not change. So using Nitrogen is a great idea in tires. There are two major problems here.
1. Air is approx 78% Nitrogen
2. In order to get reasonable results from doing this, you would have to seal the beads on your tires, then evacuate the tires in order to remove any contamination from inside the tire. I have never seen a tire tech using a vacuum pump.

Although this is a great idea, the methods currenly employed make the results marginal at best. That is, unless you look at profit margin.....

BTW, I am a real HVAC guy, unlike the one at Cosco who is quite wrong about your underinflation. If you wanted to get in to the whole theory, IF you properly inflated your tires with Nitrogen, you would effectively raise the speed rating of your tires. (DISCLAIMER, don't do it, don't test this, Im not paying for your wrecked bike, etc) A big part of speed rating is maximum pressure the tire can safely operate at. More speed= more friction=more heat=more pressure inside the tire when using air. Use Nitrogen, pressure is build much more slowly, therefor, even more speed=etc, etc

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post #24 of 24 Old Jul 23rd, 2012, 3:54 pm
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Re: seeing were talking tires

My 2 cents

I've used Nitrogen in my tires of all my vehicles for years ... A friend of mine that manages a tire store asked me to let him do the Nitrogen thing on my F-350 dually, my little car ... and at the time my Harley Ultra (yes nitrogen in the Lt tires too). He said he would do nitrogen for life for me if I'd report back to him in several months. He did this for about thirty people.

My observations:

F-350 - I used to have to add air every month ... with nitrogen, I check the pressure quarterly and it does not change ... maybe once a year or so he has to bump it a pound or two, I'm guessing due to lose from checking the pressure ... I run 85#

Little car - very similar experience ... bump pressure maybe once a year ... running 32#

Harley - never bumped pressure in several several years .. ran 38#

LT - never bumped pressure ... a year in Aug ... running 42# front 48# rear


As to gas mileage ... no difference on any vehicle

As for wear ... I have 48k on the dually tires ... never rotated (if you own a Ford dually you know why) ... the tires still look new .. the little car only has 23K on this set of tires .. still look new ... the Harley I was getting 25K on the front tire and 14-15K on the rear ... on the LT I've put 5k on the bike this year and I see no wear on either tire ,,, no cupping

All of my tires have the same valve caps they did before Nitrogen add on ... my guy fills the tires and releases the pressure three times before setting the pressure, he says to ensure maximum Nitrogen concentration ... who knows

Take all of this for what it's worth ... for me ... I like nitrogen and since I don't pay for it ... I'll continue to use it ... when I go on trips I just don't worry about tire pressure ... I check it before the trip and rest easy

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