Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 32 Old Jul 18th, 2012, 6:22 pm Thread Starter
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Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

DanDiver and I looked at my rear rotor, about a month ago, and discovered the rear rotor was loose. After taking a close look it seems like it was made to be loose. It does make a lot of noise when hitting any small bump in the road. When applying rear brake no more noise. Is it supposed to be that noisy?

2002 BMW K1200 LT.....Bought 6/15/2012

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post #2 of 32 Old Jul 18th, 2012, 6:27 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

It is made to "float" some but if it is noisy then it is too loose. Replace it with an EBC rotor & you be good to go.

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post #3 of 32 Old Jul 18th, 2012, 6:45 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonHolly
DanDiver and I looked at my rear rotor, about a month ago, and discovered the rear rotor was loose. After taking a close look it seems like it was made to be loose. It does make a lot of noise when hitting any small bump in the road. When applying rear brake no more noise. Is it supposed to be that noisy?
That "cow bell" feature is part of why the LT costs what it does. You can replace it with an EBC rotor as I ad many others did, but you are likely to piss off some german engineer(s) and that is probably not a good thing. After all, they designed it so you can ride your fancy BMW motorbike and have people look at you like you are on a rickety P.O.S. from all of the noise it makes. Same reason the brakes squeal until you replace them with EBC pads and bed them in good.


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post #4 of 32 Old Jul 18th, 2012, 8:27 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by deputy5211
That "cow bell" feature is part of why the LT costs what it does. You can replace it with an EBC rotor as I ad many others did, but you are likely to piss off some german engineer(s) and that is probably not a good thing. After all, they designed it so you can ride your fancy BMW motorbike and have people look at you like you are on a rickety P.O.S. from all of the noise it makes. Same reason the brakes squeal until you replace them with EBC pads and bed them in good.

+1 and lots of threads on how to do it. beemerboneyard has them and use BMWMOA for a 10% discount

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post #5 of 32 Old Jul 18th, 2012, 9:52 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

What wears to cause the looseness ? I haven't had mine off yet, it's still silent but there is looseness there, obviously not enough. I'm wondering if liquid polyeurethane can be poured into the voids to take up the slack (around tyhe floating bushes). My disc is still like new (thickness) and brakes are fine so it's a shame to waste the disc. Thoughts ?

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post #6 of 32 Old Jul 19th, 2012, 1:45 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Here is an oldie but goodie:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...Floating+rotor

The stock front pads were about twice the price of EBC. So, I use EBC front and back.

Withthe audio cranked up so that I can hear it thru my helmet and using ear plugs on the open road, I nevr hear the rear rotor rattle.

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post #7 of 32 Old Jul 19th, 2012, 6:46 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Just for the record, I replaced my rear break pads with BMW pads and got rid of the school busl and had the rotor replaced with a BMW rotor over 30k miles ago, been quiet ever since. When you buy the new rotor, whichever one you choose get new bolts too.

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post #8 of 32 Old Jul 19th, 2012, 7:56 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

I just replaced mine with the ebc pro lite rotor and ebc pads for $161.00, no more noise and seems to be better braking, you don't need to change the two bolts that hold it on, they just hold it in place when the wheel is removed, the five lugs do all the work.

EBC Pro-Lite Brake Rotor - Rear MD615 = $131.01

Amazon was the cheapest I found.

It's an easy fix with a little heat from a torch or heat gun.

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post #9 of 32 Old Feb 11th, 2013, 11:03 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Well, being new to the LT glad to hear this is normal. I got a helluva racket every time I apply the brakes. Sounds like the pads in the rear caliper are slapping around loose or a sound like the caliper bolts were loose.

Squeal from hell too. Anyhow, I pulled the caliper off, all bolts were tight. I applied Wurth Anti-Squeal spray to the rear of the pads. Then put them back in and re-mounted the caliper. Then I was playing around with the rotor... all loosy-goosy and I'm thinking what the heck? Now I read here it's normal. Well the "bolts" that hold the rotor surface onto the rest of the rotor hub look like big rivets no way to tighten them... the whole floating rotor thing. I'm wondering if this is my clackety clack noise when I hit rear brakes at a stop light while going real slow.

Hopefully the wurth spray fixes most of my squeal issue. I'm gonna spray that stuff on the front brake pads as well next fix-it-session.

I left the rear wheel off, gonna replace the tire this week, have a new one on the way.
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post #10 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 6:43 am Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by westvandude
Well, being new to the LT glad to hear this is normal. I got a helluva racket every time I apply the brakes. Sounds like the pads in the rear caliper are slapping around loose or a sound like the caliper bolts were loose.

Squeal from hell too. Anyhow, I pulled the caliper off, all bolts were tight. I applied Wurth Anti-Squeal spray to the rear of the pads. Then put them back in and re-mounted the caliper. Then I was playing around with the rotor... all loosy-goosy and I'm thinking what the heck? Now I read here it's normal. Well the "bolts" that hold the rotor surface onto the rest of the rotor hub look like big rivets no way to tighten them... the whole floating rotor thing. I'm wondering if this is my clackety clack noise when I hit rear brakes at a stop light while going real slow.

Hopefully the wurth spray fixes most of my squeal issue. I'm gonna spray that stuff on the front brake pads as well next fix-it-session.

I left the rear wheel off, gonna replace the tire this week, have a new one on the way.
Your rotor is worn out. Due to poor design of the rotor they have early failure and the only thing to do is replace it. Not cheap to do but about the only "real" fix for it. You could try and "jerry rig" with replacing two or three rivets with bolts to tighten things up. I elected to replace my rotor and new pads and haven't had a problem since. Let us know what you do to yours and how it worked out. To see how it was made I removed the inner hub from the rotor and it's more than just rivets. I post pic when I get a chance.

You can see the wear on this "special" rivet. There is/was a spring wire going around the rivet's circumference that is worn away that is supposed to provide a cushioning effect. You can also see, on the disk, where the rivet has wallowed out cutout and this is what's causing all the clanking!




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post #11 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 7:20 am Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

I bought the EBC rotor disc and brake pads from BMW Bone Yard for $228 delivered. Wish I had bought better pads so there's not so much dust on the rims.

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post #12 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 8:13 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonHolly
Your rotor is worn out. Due to poor design of the rotor they have early failure and the only thing to do is replace it.
I respectfully disagree with the basis of that conclusion. The best way to tell if the rotor is "worn out" is to take a caliper to it. Another way to tell if a rotor replacement is required is to check for warping. I did not see any measurements posted about either of these factors.

That the floating rear rotor developed the beloved "cow bell" syndrome is NOT, on its own, evidence of the rotor wearing out. Cow bell IS annoying, even a bit disconcerting until one realizes what the problem is, but it does not necessarily indicate a worn out rotor.

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post #13 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 8:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by deputy5211
I respectfully disagree with the basis of that conclusion. The best way to tell if the rotor is "worn out" is to take a caliper to it. Another way to tell if a rotor replacement is required is to check for warping. I did not see any measurements posted about either of these factors.

That the floating rear rotor developed the beloved "cow bell" syndrome is NOT, on its own, evidence of the rotor wearing out. Cow bell IS annoying, even a bit disconcerting until one realizes what the problem is, but it does not necessarily indicate a worn out rotor.
Here's what he has already identified, "Then I was playing around with the rotor... all loosy-goosy and I'm thinking what the heck? " I guess we will see what the problem was when he get's it all figured out and repaired. Loosy-Goosy means worn rivets.

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post #14 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 9:03 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

By loosy goosy I mean about 1-2mm play. In my experience with Japanese bikes the rotors are tight. So I was kinda freaked out by this. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't seem like anything is falling off (the rotor) just seems odd to me. All the rivet pins are in place, none are missing or look like they are falling out.

Probably just going to run with it this next season and check it a couple times during the year to see it's not getting worse.
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post #15 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 9:08 am Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by STEBS
I just replaced mine with the ebc pro lite rotor and ebc pads for $161.00, no more noise and seems to be better braking, you don't need to change the two bolts that hold it on, they just hold it in place when the wheel is removed, the five lugs do all the work.
EBC Pro-Lite Brake Rotor - Rear MD615 = $131.01 Amazon was the cheapest I found. It's an easy fix with a little heat from a torch or heat gun.
I wish I could have found the Amazon deal you found when I was looking. I checked everywhere I could research including Amazon and Boneyard was the best I could find at the time July '12.

2002 BMW K1200 LT.....Bought 6/15/2012
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post #16 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 9:14 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

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Originally Posted by RonHolly
Here's what he has already identified, "Then I was playing around with the rotor... all loosy-goosy and I'm thinking what the heck? " I guess we will see what the problem was when he get's it all figured out and repaired. Loosy-Goosy means worn rivets..
Yes, but the very next sentences were: "Now I read here it's normal. Well the "bolts" that hold the rotor surface onto the rest of the rotor hub look like big rivets no way to tighten them... the whole floating rotor thing."

"Loosey Goosey" is the floating rotor floating, albeit more than one might prefer. There are many forum posts on this being annoying but not generally negatively impacting braking performance or safety.

"Worn" is quite different than "worn out." For example: The boots I bought last month are "worn" but it will be years before they are worn out.

FWIW, I replaced my factory rotor, which had developed the cow bell, with an EBC rotor because the clanging and rattling sounds were annoying and embarrassing. I did not need to replace it for any reason other than I wanted to get rid of one of the more annoying LT sounds. I still have that rotor in my garage as a spare, in case my EBC wears our or fails.

Just my $0.02. YMMV

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post #17 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 9:17 am Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by westvandude
By loosy goosy I mean about 1-2mm play. In my experience with Japanese bikes the rotors are tight. So I was kinda freaked out by this. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't seem like anything is falling off (the rotor) just seems odd to me. All the rivet pins are in place, none are missing or look like they are falling out.

Probably just going to run with it this next season and check it a couple times during the year to see it's not getting worse.
If it's loose "at all" it will make a noise everytime you hit a bump in the road. Shouldn't be able to move it by hand. Can't remember how many rivets are securing my rotor, 8 I think, but with that many it shouldn't move with your hand pressure. How many miles are on yours? When I bought my bike it had 36,500 miles on it and rotor was already worn out. Sooo embarrising when I would go down a brick road that I had to slightly press rear brake, under power, to keep noise down. Radio wouldn't hide it! LoL

Take a rubber headed mallet and slightly tap the rotor and see if it makes noise. Shouldn't be any "if" you don't like cow bells ringing. I agree that's it's not unsafe "but" who wants a Cadillac of the motorcycle industry sounding like a rattle trap. When I see rivet wear and excessive mating rotor wear it's not OK with me.

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post #18 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 9:35 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

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If it's loose "at all" it will make a noise everytime you hit a bump in the road. Shouldn't be able to move it by hand. Can't remember how many rivets are securing my rotor, 8 I think, but with that many it shouldn't move with your hand pressure. How many miles are on yours? When I bought my bike it had 36,500 miles on it and rotor was already worn out. Sooo embarrising when I would go down a brick road that I had to slightly press rear brake, under power, to keep noise down. Radio wouldn't hide it! LoL

Take a rubber headed mallet and slightly tap the rotor and see if it makes noise. Shouldn't be any "if" you don't like cow bells ringing. I agree that's it's not unsafe "but" who wants a Cadillac of the motorcycle industry sounding like a rattle trap. When I see rivet wear and excessive mating rotor wear it's not OK with me.
Nobody is disputing the embarrassing and annoying aspects of the cow bell. Those are the reasons I cited (above) for swapping mine for an EBC.

The sole point in dispute here is your stated conclusion that the rotor is worn out.

Oh, I also take exception to your calling our beloved (and cursed at the same time) LTs a Cadillac. To me, that just sounds silly because Cadillac does not summon up images of quality, precision, or status. On the other hand, neither does my LT.


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post #19 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 10:10 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

The rear rotor on my '01 LT went 140K and was not even close to being worn out.

I think BMW has the absolute best brakes of any brand motorcycle I've ever owned. That even goes back to my '79 Airhead's ATE's - which by today's standards is like dragging your feet - but for it's time was simply amazing.

Oh yeah, there is NO SUCH THING as a "warped" rotor. Sorry.

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post #20 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 10:41 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

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Oh yeah, there is NO SUCH THING as a "warped" rotor. Sorry.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths
Even better, Ron! Does that leave just caliper measurement of the rotor disc as the sole technical measure of whether rotor is worn out?

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post #21 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 10:52 am Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Oh no man! It looks like I started a "URINATION" contest. From "MY" pictures of "MY" rotor it was "WORN OUT" because it is not meeting designed specifications. "MINE" was extremely noisy and am sure BMW did not design and manufacture it to become an annoyance as "MINE" was. The brakes were safe except for squeal and excessive rattle noise. In "MY OPINION" If he wants to correct "HIS" annoyance a new rotor and brake pads will do it. This has been such a common occurence in this forum based on his description. He can ride it with the squeal and cow-bells or he can fix it!

Oh, Deputy5211, "I see you stirring up that little pot down there."

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post #22 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 11:45 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
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...To me, that just sounds silly because Cadillac does not summon up images of quality, precision, or status. On the other hand, neither does my LT.

I don't know. I hear Caddys are still status symbols on "the other side of the tracks".
Reminds me of a funny memory. Back in the 80s there was a woman going door to door, selling various products. Might have been Amway. She approached our home and saw my father's El Dorado sitting out front. She wanted to know who owned "that car" because she knew for sure she was going to sell that person some soap (and lots of it).

If noises of cow-bells were the only issue we had from our BMW bikes, then this forum would be a whole lot quieter.

BTW, I don't recall anyone mentioning trying to replace the rivets. Would that fix the problem and/or are they not available?

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post #23 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 12:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Quote:
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I don't know. I hear Caddys are still status symbols on "the other side of the tracks".
Reminds me of a funny memory. Back in the 80s there was a woman going door to door, selling various products. Might have been Amway. She approached our home and saw my father's El Dorado sitting out front. She wanted to know who owned "that car" because she knew for sure she was going to sell that person some soap (and lots of it).

If noises of cow-bells were the only issue we had from our BMW bikes, then this forum would be a whole lot quieter.

BTW, I don't recall anyone mentioning trying to replace the rivets. Would that fix the problem and/or are they not available?
I was just out in my shop looking at my old rotor trying to figure out what to do without having to replace the whole center and rotor disk. It "seems" that oversize special rivets could easily be made. The re-sizing of the worn cut-outs, where the rivets mate, would be a little harder. The worn cut-outs have to be concentric to the new rivets. The rotor metal is really hard metal and might have to be cut with carbide side cutting end mills with preciseness in relation to the other nice rivets. That's much harder to do. (for me) I have a CNC mill that could do it but I think it would be too labor intensive to make it worth while. Oh, and then there is the "liability" thing to worry about if you made it for someone else and accident happened. We now live in a "suing" society for the quick buck!

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post #24 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 12:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Do I look like the kinda guy that would steer anyone wrong?



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post #25 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 12:56 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

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Do I look like the kinda guy that would steer anyone wrong?


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post #26 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 1:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Got the cheeze and whine and only need some French flies to make a good meal. Riv-it! (No pun intended!)

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post #27 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 4:11 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

The rotor is actually a two piece assembly. The rivets have a spring loaded assembly around each shaft which allows the rotor to float laterally and to a small degree rotationally relative to the hub. I suspect the logic is to allow for the smoothest possible brake feel as this design would dampen any irregularities in the rotor when the brakes are applied. On cars this is accomplished with the caliper sliding on it's mounting bolts. While they get loose and allow the cowbell effect, I doubt there is any danger of failure as they loosen up. I glued mine in place with Loctite and high temperature silicone. Silence ever since.


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post #28 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 5:16 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Dean, so this technique actually works then ? I asked about / suggested something similar in a previous post but received no comment. Mine is loose but not yet rattling, so I think I'll try some high temp RTV silicone injected around the rivets.

Dennis
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post #29 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 6:10 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

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Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
The rotor is actually a two piece assembly. The rivets have a spring loaded assembly around each shaft which allows the rotor to float laterally and to a small degree rotationally relative to the hub. I suspect the logic is to allow for the smoothest possible brake feel as this design would dampen any irregularities in the rotor when the brakes are applied. On cars this is accomplished with the caliper sliding on it's mounting bolts. While they get loose and allow the cowbell effect, I doubt there is any danger of failure as they loosen up. I glued mine in place with Loctite and high temperature silicone. Silence ever since.
Dean, I do know of one person that the "Cowbell" ended up so bad that it destroyed the disc carrier while he was on the road. Total failure requiring all new parts.
Robert

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post #30 of 32 Old Feb 12th, 2013, 7:02 pm
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

Yea, I suppose if it went ignored long enough and got to be metal on metal that would be the eventual outcome. When I did mine it still had enough spring left to hold the disc centered up where it belongs. I don't see eliminating the lateral movement as an issue since there are pistons on both sides of the caliper. It would be important to make sure the disc is properly centered when it gets anchored.


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post #31 of 32 Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 8:37 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

I had the same cowbell clang on my '03 LT. Dealer said they had an advisory on it from BMW. I asked about an appointment to have it replaced. I was told that the advisory was to alert the dealers to the noise problem but no warranty or help from BMW. They quoted me $475.00 for the new rotor assembly and $75.00 labor to install.
I took the bike into my shop and dismounted the rear wheel, examined the rear rotor and found it to be in near new condition after 18,000 miles. I decided then and there that I was NOT going to throw away a perfectly good rotor. I measured the "float" distance between the rotor and the hub and found it to be 19/1000th of an inch. Below is the technique I used to correct the "BMW Cowbell Clang".

I now have over 500 miles on my reworked back rotor and I have no more Cling, Clang. It doesn't help the little screetching from the brake pads that comes and goes, but everyone seems to think it is the compound of the OEM brake pads. I am waiting for my time for pad change, which will not be OEM, to see if that can be solved also.
The re-work for the rotor is fairly straight forward. Remove the rear wheel, remove the two bolts securing the rear caliper and suspend the caliper out of the way to remove the two bolts securing the brake rotor hub from the final drive. Once you have the hub rotor assembly on the bench and cleaned up, you need to gently wedge between the rotor and the hub with something like knife blades or wood chisels in at least three equidistant places around the hub. This will hold the "floating disk" at the far side from the hub on the float pins. Then, using a metal shim feeler gauge, measure the distance between the hub and the rotor. Mine was 19 thousands of an inch.

I obtained some 19 thousands shimstock and cut 1/2" x 1/2" square peices. Then, on one edge of each shim , bent a 1/8" inch x 1/2" 90 degree bend.

These angle bent shims are now gently tapped between the hub and the rotor from the outside, centered between each set of float pins. The little 1/8" flange on the shim stops it from sliding through by stopping it at the edge of the hub. As I recall, I needed eight shims so there was one centered between each pair of float pins.
I then set the hub/rotor assembly in my bench vise, gently clamping on the rotor with one of the shim flanges now setting firmly against the vise jaw. I then used a utility knife to lift and bend another flange on the shim on the inside of the rotor. After the flange is bent 90 degrees on the inside, I used a small pin punch to firmly swege the newly bent flange tightly against the rotor's arched cutout. Then rotating the hub rotor in the vise, I proceeded to do the same with all the shim spacers. When they are all sweged tightly, put a drop of super glue on the inside flange bend on each shim, allowing the glue to run between the rotor and shim.

This basically turns the "floating disk" into a non-floating disk and eliminates the "clang clang" tune. My first attempt did not resolve the problem as the shim stock I had was 18 thousands, and left an almost imperceptible amount of float on the disk. The clang was greatly reduced, but not completely gone. You need a shim that will eliminate all float to be successful. Total cost of repair $2.50.
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post #32 of 32 Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 11:19 am
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Re: Tingle-Dangle-Bong!! Rear Rotor Noise

podunk, that sounds really interesting, and it's a fairly detailed account of your modification. Using super glue was an interesting choice. I for one have never had any luck w/ that stuff, other than getting my fingers stuck together, which it does very well.

It'd be great to see pictures or video of your shims and installation of them. Look forward to seeing some one day.

Jeff
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