Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling. - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 35 Old May 13th, 2012, 6:26 pm Thread Starter
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Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

I've been noticing that my gas mileage has been plummeting on the highway. I remember a time when I was getting 45+ to the gallon at 80mph. Now I'm lucky to top 40. Today, I was riding through some twisties in the lower Adirondacks and found that the bike stutters when accelerating out of a sharp turn (left or right). I stopped to snap a couple of pics at a scenic overlook and the bike took more than 5-6 cranks to fire up (typically, she starts up in 2-3 cranks). I've tried all the easy suggestions...gas treatment for the ethanol, fuel injector cleaners, canisterectomy, and changed all my fluids and spark plugs.

I've never replaced the fuel filter or air filter. I'm guessing my next step is the fuel filter, the air filter, vacuum lines on the fuel rail, and possibly the internal fuel hose in the tank. Am I missing anything else, that may be easier than pulling the whole tank?

Patient's vitals are as follows:

Name: Tickets
Birthday: 2002
Age: 39,000 miles
Ethnicity: Silver
Typical meal: 5.5 gal of 93 octane with 10% ethanol and a shot of fuel injector cleaner.
Other: No farkles. Resides in a cozy garage. Battery is new. Right side mirror vibrates due to broken plastic tab. Some of the cover screws are missing, but she has enough to hold her together at maximum velocity.

She's getting sick, please help me save her.

Thanks,
Chad

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post #2 of 35 Old May 13th, 2012, 6:54 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cealbrecht
I've never replaced the fuel filter or air filter. I'm guessing my next step is the fuel filter, the air filter, vacuum lines on the fuel rail, and possibly the internal fuel hose in the tank.
Chad
Sounds like you are on the right track, Replace the injector O-rings also...

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post #3 of 35 Old May 13th, 2012, 7:09 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

You've listed what I would do - I think you're on the right track.

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post #4 of 35 Old May 13th, 2012, 9:04 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Typicaly a sharp sudden drop in MPG is due to a failing O2 sensor.

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post #5 of 35 Old May 13th, 2012, 9:14 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

O2 sensor- Bosch 13475. Plug and play.

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post #6 of 35 Old May 14th, 2012, 12:42 am
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

I'd be trying a non-ethanol blend for a while and see if it helps. I ran 95 Ron with 10% ethanol for a few years, and had a hesitation on opening the throttle, particularly from standstill at the lights.
Eventually sucked it up and started paying more for straight 95 Ron petrol (super unleaded) and the hesitation disappeared completely.
Worth it for the extra $1-$2 a week.

Chris
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post #7 of 35 Old May 14th, 2012, 8:55 am
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cws
I'd be trying a non-ethanol blend for a while and see if it helps. I ran 95 Ron with 10% ethanol for a few years, and had a hesitation on opening the throttle, particularly from standstill at the lights.
Eventually sucked it up and started paying more for straight 95 Ron petrol (super unleaded) and the hesitation disappeared completely.
Worth it for the extra $1-$2 a week.
95 is the highest I have seen here in the states, save the occasional SuperFuels stand offering 100 unleaded.

I have yet to see anywhere offering on-ethanol blended fuel, at least between Texas and California. I remember up somewhere between Cairns and Tully...

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post #8 of 35 Old May 14th, 2012, 10:39 am
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Replace your plug wires. I just did mine and the poor running and bad mileage went away. I now get 48.5 mpg US.

Pretty poor construction on the factory wires. Makes for easy fabrication, but the wire end to the connectors is a bad design. Not a solid connection and prone to corrosion. Might need to cut one open and show everyone.

Best of luck.

53 MPG and life just keeps getting better

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post #9 of 35 Old May 14th, 2012, 6:33 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Thanks for the suggestions. I had thought about the O2 sensor, but I wasn't sure how that would only effect my cornering.... I will need to take her out again and verify that I don't have an acceleration issue at low RPM when riding vertical. Maybe the stutters occur after a drop in RPM's followed by a sudden acceleration?? I will let you know if I have any other specific symptoms.

What would you expect the bike to do, if the internal fuel line were cracked inside the tank? Wouldn't there be more problems with less gas in the tank? I haven't noticed any difference in the symptoms as the tank becomes depleted of fuel.

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post #10 of 35 Old May 14th, 2012, 7:06 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cealbrecht
What would you expect the bike to do, if the internal fuel line were cracked inside the tank? Wouldn't there be more problems with less gas in the tank? I haven't noticed any difference in the symptoms as the tank becomes depleted of fuel.
It will deteriorate quickly, eventually not running at all.
Does it stutter on left and right curves?
Is it worse when cold? Warm? Or both?
Does it idle smoothly at all times?
Does it stutter all the way up to 6-7K rpms? ( stutters thru the entire rpm band)

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post #11 of 35 Old May 14th, 2012, 9:53 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

I would vote for the O2. My experience is more with cars, but fuel filters typically exhibit as loss of power at sustained high power (high fuel flow rates).

Jim H.

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post #12 of 35 Old May 16th, 2012, 6:15 am Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochinosucio
It will deteriorate quickly, eventually not running at all.
Does it stutter on left and right curves?
Is it worse when cold? Warm? Or both?
Does it idle smoothly at all times?
Does it stutter all the way up to 6-7K rpms? ( stutters thru the entire rpm band)
It stutters on both left and right curves.
I think it's the same cold and warm.
The bike sounds like it might have a small sputter about once every 2 seconds when idling, but it's not a big movement on the tach.
I will need to experiment with the RPM's but right now my answer would be no....I don't remember a problem when I'm cruising on the highway or above 3k rpms.

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post #13 of 35 Old May 16th, 2012, 8:19 am
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Run seafoam through it while waiting for your new 02 sensor to arrive.... and always buy the best gas you can.

"You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than you can by what others say about him."
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Remember folks, street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph. ~Jim Samuels




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post #14 of 35 Old May 16th, 2012, 7:06 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cws
I'd be trying a non-ethanol blend for a while and see if it helps. I ran 95 Ron with 10% ethanol for a few years, and had a hesitation on opening the throttle, particularly from standstill at the lights.
Eventually sucked it up and started paying more for straight 95 Ron petrol (super unleaded) and the hesitation disappeared completely.
Worth it for the extra $1-$2 a week.
I have the sam problem with my LT, hesitation when starting out, particularly once the bike is warmed up. When cold it isn't noticeable, but one warm it hesitates and sags below 2,000 RPM. I believe the issue is ethanol related also, but can't find any real gas around here to buy anymore.

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post #15 of 35 Old May 19th, 2012, 8:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

OK, new data...

It stutters on acceleration from low RPM to about 3.2k. Once it's revving above 3500rpm, there is very little noticible effect except that she gets only 39 mpg on the highway. I don't notice any stutter when cold. Could this be the O2 sensor? Is there any way to clean an O2 sensor or should I replace it?

How should the bike run if the O2 sensor was removed? Shouldn't it run rich all the time and have no stutter at all in the lower RPM's?

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post #16 of 35 Old May 19th, 2012, 9:41 am
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Chad,
Don't run without the 02 sensor. Mileage drop and poor running are signs of a bad sensor. You will damage it if you try to clean it. Don't cut corners, fuel mixture issues can be devistating to your motor.

"You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than you can by what others say about him."
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Remember folks, street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph. ~Jim Samuels




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post #17 of 35 Old May 19th, 2012, 3:12 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Symptoms as described would get me to thinking about that O2 sensor.

Run a good dose of Sea Foam through it, a whole can to a half tank of gas.

B D R
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post #18 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 7:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Latest update:

Spent $130 for new O2 sensor and special tools to remove the old one. Went for a test ride with the new O2 sensor. I could tell right away that something was different. The bike was smoother and better between the gears and a 1 hour ride displayed a highway MPG of 44. This is a 4-5 MPG improvement.

However, my low RPM stutter is still there. I don't like the stutter. It's a dangerous nuisance. I'm afraid I'm going to stall out one of these times when pulling into traffic. My idle is rough when the engine warms up and the bike kicks and bucks when accelerating out of a corner or when accelerating after braking for a turning car, etc.

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post #19 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 7:53 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cealbrecht
Latest update:

Spent $130 for new O2 sensor and special tools to remove the old one. Went for a test ride with the new O2 sensor. I could tell right away that something was different. The bike was smoother and better between the gears and a 1 hour ride displayed a highway MPG of 44. This is a 4-5 MPG improvement.

However, my low RPM stutter is still there. I don't like the stutter. It's a dangerous nuisance. I'm afraid I'm going to stall out one of these times when pulling into traffic. My idle is rough when the engine warms up and the bike kicks and bucks when accelerating out of a corner or when accelerating after braking for a turning car, etc.
I've got it! I never asked if this was done. No doubt the 02 sensor was PART of the problem, but not the whole problem.
Take the topcase off, remove the black cover, and remove the YELLOW CAT CODE PLUG. The hesitation is caused by the motronic alternate fuel map. That will fix it. It takes 15 minutes. If you don't have the YELLOW CAT CODE PLUG, then look up "Cut the brown wire" under search.
That should do it!

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Remember folks, street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph. ~Jim Samuels




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1986 Honda Interceptor Black (Weezy)
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post #20 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 8:13 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

No, it's not the brown wire. I cut that a few years ago. I think I've got a vacuum leak or a bad fuel injector. (it's what I would have guessed, if I hadn't already cut it)

Can the fuel injectors be pulled without removing the tank? I'm getting the feeling that the tank's coming off next weekend....

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post #21 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 8:25 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

RATS!
The injectors are very easy to pull. You can remove them with just the left tupperware off. Just a few bolts and the whole rail comes off...

"You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than you can by what others say about him."
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Remember folks, street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph. ~Jim Samuels




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1986 Honda Interceptor Black (Weezy)
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post #22 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 8:50 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

HI, Just to add my experiences... I had virtually the same problem... purchased a new O2 sensor.... but the low rev stutter/ hesitancy was caused by the spark plug wires... they had rubbed through in places, no insulation caused them to arc out.... replaced the spark plug wires and the bike was like new again...

HTH...

Andy
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post #23 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 8:50 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochinosucio
I've got it! I never asked if this was done. No doubt the 02 sensor was PART of the problem, but not the whole problem.
Take the topcase off, remove the black cover, and remove the YELLOW CAT CODE PLUG. The hesitation is caused by the motronic alternate fuel map. That will fix it. It takes 15 minutes. If you don't have the YELLOW CAT CODE PLUG, then look up "Cut the brown wire" under search.
That should do it!
Never heard of this plug before. I searched the forum and didn't see much either. Do you have a picture of what this looks like and where it is located?

Did some more searching (omitted "code" to get fewer erroneous hits) and found the information. It appears this applies to older LTs, the brown wire to middle-aged LTs and the air box temp sensor is the only option for my 2007. Is this correct?

The "sag" during start-outs in warm weather is really annoying!

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post #24 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 9:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyfb
HI, Just to add my experiences... I had virtually the same problem... purchased a new O2 sensor.... but the low rev stutter/ hesitancy was caused by the spark plug wires... they had rubbed through in places, no insulation caused them to arc out.... replaced the spark plug wires and the bike was like new again...

HTH...

Andy
Thanks Andy, I will check them this weekend.

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post #25 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 9:45 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochinosucio
RATS!
The injectors are very easy to pull. You can remove them with just the left tupperware off. Just a few bolts and the whole rail comes off...
Works for me. I'll let you know if I see anything suspicious. Thanks.

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post #26 of 35 Old May 20th, 2012, 9:52 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Have you tried resetting the Motronic? Disconnect the battery for at least 10 minutes. Re-Connect. Turn key on (but don't start). Open and close throttle fully three times slowly. Start, and go for a ride.

Brian
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post #27 of 35 Old Jun 3rd, 2012, 5:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

And it appears that Andy is the winner!

I spent the day pulling my tank for the first time ever and checking the fuel filter, fuel lines, vacuum lines, air filter, etc. It all looked good. I performed a few vacuum tests of my own to see what happens when you pull hoses and clog hoses. Nothing was helping, but then there was a bolt of lightning and a crash of thunder. The wind started to pick up and I decided to move the whole operation into the dimly lit garage. I try to keep troubleshooting but the lighting is so weak that I can't see much around the fuel rail in the garage, so I decided to take the cover off of the spark plugs.....then I saw more than I cared to see. It appeared that plug number 2 was more dangerous than the lightning outside and plug number 4 was getting into the act occasionally. It looks like a new set of spark plug wires will cure my low RPM stutters and probably bring the highway gas mileage back to 45+ mpg. I made a little video of what I saw for anyone who may be experiencing the same issue and have the same doubts about the spark plug wires being the culprit....as I did.

You should be able to see my video on Facebook. I shared it with the public.
Video

Thanks everyone for the help, and many thanks to Andy for having had the same problem before me and replying to my post.

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post #28 of 35 Old Jun 3rd, 2012, 7:53 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

I looked at the video and it appears to be the plugs and not the wires that were "leaking" electricity. I base this on the fact it all appears to come from under the plug cap. If that is so then a new set of plugs is cheaper and easier than new wires. ($58.00 each).

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2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #29 of 35 Old Jun 3rd, 2012, 9:03 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
I looked at the video and it appears to be the plugs and not the wires that were "leaking" electricity. I base this on the fact it all appears to come from under the plug cap. If that is so then a new set of plugs is cheaper and easier than new wires. ($58.00 each).
Hi John,

Yes, you are correct. I called Dave Selnig shortly after I posted the video and explained what I saw. He said the same thing....the plugs. I recently put in a new set of Iridium NGK's to combat this same issue. The new plug in cylinder 2 turned out to have a hairline crack in the ceramic. I may have caused it during install or I purchased it that way. It was barely visible, but you can see it if you're looking for it. I replaced it and all is well, except that I broke one of the quick disconnects on the fuel tank (even though I was trying to be careful). Anyway, I think I'm in the home stretch and expect to be back to some smooth riding in a couple of days. Thanks everyone.

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post #30 of 35 Old Jun 4th, 2012, 5:52 am
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

[QUOTE=cealbrecht]Latest update:

Spent $130 for new O2 sensor and special tools to remove the old one.QUOTE]

You need a special tool to remove the O2?

Mugz

"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving."

BMWMOA - #45711

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2003 R1150GS - Yellowbird
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post #31 of 35 Old Jun 4th, 2012, 6:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

[QUOTE=Mugszy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cealbrecht
Latest update:

Spent $130 for new O2 sensor and special tools to remove the old one.QUOTE]

You need a special tool to remove the O2?

Mugz
Yeah, I had nothing that would get a good grip on the old one and still leave enough room to turn it. My tools kept slipping around the nut and stripping off the edges. I went to the automotive store to find a 22mm open ended wrench but even that was giving me a fit, so I spent another $16 on an O2 sensor removal offset-socket for my socket set at Advance Auto. It worked like a charm but I hope I never need to use it again.... I'll post a picture of it, if you would like to see what I'm talking about.

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Chad Albrecht
2002 Chartreuse Yellow and Black BMW K1200LT Tickets
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post #32 of 35 Old Jun 4th, 2012, 6:48 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Mine did that last year on the way home from Bloomburg. It turned out to be an O2 sensor.

***********************************
Larry Kniess
Beaverton, Oregon
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post #33 of 35 Old Jun 4th, 2012, 7:59 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Here is some pic's of my Snap-On O2 sensor socket. You fish the wires thru the socket & then attach it to the rachet.
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Dave Selvig
2004 Black LT
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post #34 of 35 Old Jun 4th, 2012, 8:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Dave's pictures are pretty close to the same thing that I bought. Mine has a cut through on one the far side so that the wires can slip into it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chad Albrecht
2002 Chartreuse Yellow and Black BMW K1200LT Tickets
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post #35 of 35 Old Jun 4th, 2012, 8:44 pm
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Re: Stutters on hard corners. MPG is falling.

Thanx, guess I need to get one as I'm noticing a slight drop in gas mileage.

Regards,

Mugz

"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving."

BMWMOA - #45711

2006 K1200LT - Blue Baby
2003 R1150GS - Yellowbird
1981 R100CS - Sadly gone
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