Canistorectomy Good or Bad? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:04 pm Thread Starter
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Canistorectomy Good or Bad?

Recently I have done the canistorectomy to my K bike and am now wondering if it was such a good idea. After my commute from work I've noticed after parking in the garage that gasoline fumes are so bad I'm surprized the it has not blown up when turning on the light switch.
Should I reinstall the canister to stop the fumes or is there another mod which will keep this from happening?
Or reinstall the charcoal canister?
Me thinks reinstalling the charcoal canister to keep the house from EXPLODING would be the best answer!

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post #2 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:24 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustedknuckles
Recently I have done the canistorectomy to my K bike and am now wondering if it was such a good idea. After my commute from work I've noticed after parking in the garage that gasoline fumes are so bad I'm surprized the it has not blown up when turning on the light switch.
Should I reinstall the canister to stop the fumes or is there another mod which will keep this from happening?
Or reinstall the charcoal canister?
Me thinks reinstalling the charcoal canister to keep the house from EXPLODING would be the best answer!
Stephen - Toad and I had the same question. I don't smell too good (alright, alright!! ), butt Cheryl sure did talk me into moving Toad outdoors the first night. Her smeller is pretty keen and she had the same thought as you; plus she's paranoid about fire. Since then, I've been keeping Toad down at the storage unit.

However, I did re-route the vent hose last week and took the belly sag out of it by running it alongside the gas cap overflow-apron hose and dropping the end to just below the riders right side footpeg. After my 5.5 hour run Sunday, I parked Toad in the garage and Cheryl didn't smell any gas fumes. I'm still gonna move Toad outta the garage to lessen Cheryl's stress, butt I'm wondering what I did wrong that no one else has done. There have been too many canisterectomies in the past, that this example should have come up if it's germaine to the procedure. Of course, now that I think about it, isn't this the same as leaving the cap off of a gas can, in the garage?!?! I'll be watching your thread for feedback from the gurus.
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post #3 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:25 pm
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Something else?

I did the canisterectomy last fall and I don't have any fumes in my garage from the bike. I gotta think that something else is wrong but I don't have any suggestions on what to check as I'm new to this.

Hopefully some of the wiser members will have some ideas. Your not seeing any drips from the re-routed tube down by the center stand are you?

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post #4 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:31 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustedknuckles
Recently I have done the canistorectomy to my K bike and am now wondering if it was such a good idea. After my commute from work I've noticed after parking in the garage that gasoline fumes are so bad I'm surprized the it has not blown up when turning on the light switch.
Should I reinstall the canister to stop the fumes or is there another mod which will keep this from happening?
Or reinstall the charcoal canister?
Me thinks reinstalling the charcoal canister to keep the house from EXPLODING would be the best answer!
You hit on the reason charcoal adsorbtion systems are on vehicles. They are designed to adsorb fumes from the tank when the vehicle is sitting still, or the tank is hot enough to cause the vapor pressure of the fuel to be high enough to drive off fumes, then when the engine is running a solenoid valve opens to allow the manifold vacuum to pull air back through the cannister and pull the stored fuel vapor back out of the charcoal, burning it in the engine.

Don't think you would ever get the fume level to the possible ignition point in your garage, but you are absolutely correct in that putting the cannister back would relieve you of smelling the fumes.

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post #5 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:36 pm Thread Starter
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Your not seeing any drips from the re-routed tube down by the center stand are you?
I did not reroute any of the hoses........just reconnected the vent to the hose running out at the rear of the bike. Then plugging the other hose from the intake vacuum.
I have not noticed any gasoline leaks since doing this mod, and just yesterday installed new throttle cables and would have noticed anything leaking.

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post #6 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:41 pm Thread Starter
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David would installing a check valve in the vent line be a possible cure or would the pressure of the gas vapors cause more problems else where?
What comes to mind is for instance a gasoline storage container in the heat of a garage in the summer which builds up pressure.

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post #7 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:51 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustedknuckles
David would installing a check valve in the vent line be a possible cure or would the pressure of the gas vapors cause more problems else where?
Installing a check valve to prevent pressure from exiting the tank, but allowing vent air in when fuel is used (or cools off) would work to keep fumes from escaping, but would possibly raise the pressure in the tank to a high enough level to cause problems. Also, the fuel injection rail pressure needs to be held very closely, and if you had 2-3 PSI in the tank with a check valve preventing it's release, you would have fuel pressure too high when you start the engine. The fuel pressure regulator controls fuel pressure relative to atmospheric pressure, but if the vent line from the regulator back to the tank has pressure on it the pressure in the rail would likely be raised by that amount, depending on the design of the regulator. Not sure if the LT pressure regulator controls pressure relative to actual atmospheric, or the "apparent" atmospheric pressure in the return line. If the latter, the engine would run rich when the tank is pressurized.

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post #8 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustedknuckles
Recently I have done the canistorectomy to my K bike and am now wondering if it was such a good idea. After my commute from work I've noticed after parking in the garage that gasoline fumes are so bad I'm surprized the it has not blown up when turning on the light switch.
Should I reinstall the canister to stop the fumes or is there another mod which will keep this from happening?
Or reinstall the charcoal canister?
Me thinks reinstalling the charcoal canister to keep the house from EXPLODING would be the best answer!
No fumes from mine, but I did put in an inline fuel filter after removing the canister (connecting the tube from the tank to the vent tube behind the rear fender). My thinking is to reduce the chances of any dust making its way to the tank. Perhaps it is keeping the fumes from exiting the tubing near the right rear portion of the saddlebag. Whatever I did seems to work just fine. Good luck.

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post #9 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 4:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
...and dropping the end to just below the riders right side footpeg.
Dick,

I did the same thing and never noticed any smell. And my wife has one of those sensitive noses, too! :<)

But when it falls over, it dumps fuel out that hose, until I pick it back up. ;<(

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post #10 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 6:17 pm
 
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Originally Posted by Buck
I did the same thing and never noticed any smell. ...{snip}... But when it falls over, it dumps fuel out that hose, until I pick it back up.
That's the point where I begin to question the wisdom of all this re-engineering of this bike. Who among us can claim to be informed and capable enough to best the efforts of all the design engineers at Motorrad, so as to change the hardware configuration of the LT for the better?

Sure, it's "cool" to make cosmetic changes to get the machine more to one's personal preferences, but, engineering changes? I guess I'm naive enough to think that the people who spent all those hours designing this thing, then putting rubber on the ramp, testing it, prior to bringing it to market, have a lot of data to support the end product they came up with, and trying to diddle around with that end product to make it "better" will have unintended consequences, somewhere along the line. Prove me wrong.
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post #11 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 7:00 pm
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Smile Canisterectomy

I agree with Critical. I just sold my 02 with 68000 miles (troublefree I might add) and it still had the canister on it and whatever else the way it came new. I always filled the gas tank to the brim (on the sidestand) and rode the bike in all kinds of weather. Was I just lucky, or what?
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post #12 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 7:20 pm
 
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Originally Posted by dsidler
I agree with Critical. I just sold my 02 with 68000 miles (troublefree I might add) and it still had the canister on it and whatever else the way it came new. I always filled the gas tank to the brim (on the sidestand) and rode the bike in all kinds of weather. Was I just lucky, or what?
That makes two of us...maybe the only two. But I do it the same way.

Jeez, someone actually agrees with me...what a novel concept! .

And, you've bolstered my confidence in this bike a little with your "trouble-free" comment. I must say, after twelve years of Goldwing experience, and the "no-show-stopper-maintenance" issues I had in that time, all the report of all the stuff going wrong with LTs has caused me a little concern.
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post #13 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 7:27 pm
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I dunno y'all. Five years without a canister, running from EPA and the black helicopters haven't affected me at all.



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post #14 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 7:39 pm
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Mark Neblett has a great article in the Hall of Wisdom about doing a canisterectomy. In the thread Mark makes reference to re-routing the tank hose down to follow the overflow bib hose down in front of the swing arm. The thread make reference to the hose not having any droop, belly or sag; but a continuous downward slope to eliminate any problems. He also make specific reference NOT to connect the hose to exit out of the back of the bike.

I followed Mark's instructions and no problems with fumes, vapor or liquid.
Good Luck.

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post #15 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 7:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CriticalMass
That's the point where I begin to question the wisdom of all this re-engineering of this bike. Who among us can claim to be informed and capable enough to best the efforts of all the design engineers at Motorrad, so as to change the hardware configuration of the LT for the better?

Sure, it's "cool" to make cosmetic changes to get the machine more to one's personal preferences, but, engineering changes? I guess I'm naive enough to think that the people who spent all those hours designing this thing, then putting rubber on the ramp, testing it, prior to bringing it to market, have a lot of data to support the end product they came up with, and trying to diddle around with that end product to make it "better" will have unintended consequences, somewhere along the line. Prove me wrong.
For the most part you are correct. BUT BMW has proven to be less than stellar in many cases over the years. Just on the LT we have THREE glaring problems, at least two of them would take little effort on BMW's part to make less problematic, but they have to know how many warranty claims they are spending WAY too many dollars on, and still have done nothing to address them.

Number one, but probably hardest to change, is the rear drive bearing failures.

Number two, and easiest to make less problematic, is the slave cylinder leakage taking out the clutch. Drilling a drain hole will not stop the cylinder failures, but will limit the repair to replacing the cylinder, instead of a much more expensive clutch replacement.

Number three, and two people have taken it into their own hands to come up with a repair solution, is the WAY too often breakage of the trunk opening handle.

Yes, for the most part BMW has done a pretty good job. It is not so forgiveable though for them to carry on a well known problem for YEARS, and not address it. Sometimes we DO know better than they are willing to admit to.

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Last edited by dshealey; Mar 20th, 2006 at 7:53 pm.
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post #16 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 8:28 pm Thread Starter
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I did not read the article written by Mark in the HOW section before removing my charcoal canister referring to changing vent hose routing, but can see no reasonable explanation as to how the hoses being routed would cause gasoline fumes not to escape.

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post #17 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 10:28 pm
 
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I think the cannister may only be installed in certain markets. My "Canadian" 2002 LT does not have a cannister (yes I bought it new) and my dealer says that because we do not have the same standards for emission controls BMW did not install them on "for sale in Canada" bikes. One could deduce from this that removing the cannister would not be tampering with the engineering of the bike ?
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post #18 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 10:43 pm
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Originally Posted by jorawro
I think the cannister may only be installed in certain markets. My "Canadian" 2002 LT does not have a cannister (yes I bought it new) and my dealer says that because we do not have the same standards for emission controls BMW did not install them on "for sale in Canada" bikes. One could deduce from this that removing the cannister would not be tampering with the engineering of the bike ?
Correct. Cannisters are not installed in Europe either. Removing them only increases standing emissions, but has no bearing on the running of the engine.

I did not know that the Canadian bikes were canisterless also, now we know.

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post #19 of 30 Old Mar 20th, 2006, 10:57 pm
 
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Thumbs down

I won't own a bike with a cannister . . . period!
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post #22 of 30 Old Mar 21st, 2006, 10:57 am
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Instead of pulling the canister on my bike. I plugged the vacuum line from the canister to the engine and left everything intact as is. So far I've had no problems with the tank having any vacuum on it (which I did have prior to the modification). I also don't have any fumes in my garage and my wife has a very sensitive nose. I suppose the fumes are still collecting in the canister (maybe like a little time bomb). Every so often I check the drain line at the back of the bike just to make sure that the lines aren't plugged and still vent from the tank (blow on the line, don't suck unless you like the taste of fuel fumes and if you do, don't light up a smoke afterwards!!). Basically, I've eliminated the tank vacuum and everything looks like it's all there so I don't have to worry about the EPA black helicopters coming after me just yet. Been this way for over 50k with no problems.

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post #23 of 30 Old Mar 21st, 2006, 11:33 am Thread Starter
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I like your thinking best. A way to keep the gasoline vapors in check without the vacuum problem on the tank.

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post #24 of 30 Old Mar 21st, 2006, 3:37 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustedknuckles
I like your thinking best. A way to keep the gasoline vapors in check without the vacuum problem on the tank.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... The problem that happens to the LT is when the canister gets fuel soaked due to a back-up of fuel from the tank vent tube into the canister. Right? If you leave the canister in place and just plug the vacuum line to the manifold you will solve only part of the potential problem, an ultra rich fuel mixture entering the intake manifold. The other part of the problem is a vacuum lock in the tank, which can cause the tank to squeeze against itself and damage the fuel sending unit as well as overheat the fuel pump. By installing a small fuel filter in the place of the canister (between the tank vent hose and the old hose venting the canister) you can cause a break in the vapors without any restriction in the line. JM2CW Happy wrenching.

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post #25 of 30 Old Mar 21st, 2006, 3:54 pm
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Originally Posted by rdtebeau
Instead of pulling the canister on my bike. I plugged the vacuum line from the canister to the engine and left everything intact as is. So far I've had no problems with the tank having any vacuum on it (which I did have prior to the modification). .

It is strange that you had the vacuum in the tank before plugging the engine vacuum line to the cannister, but not after! In any case, leaving the cannister in line with the tank vent, but now with no air flow when the engine is running to clear it, you may eventually have a plugged cannister, then get a tank vacuum when it cannot vent as fuel is used.

I feel that the cannister should either be in the system and used correctly, or removed completely and the tank vented to atmosphere normally, maybe even through a filter. I would never suggest to anyone that they plug the purge line, and still leave the cannister in the system.

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post #26 of 30 Old Mar 21st, 2006, 9:02 pm
 
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For the most part you are correct. BUT BMW has proven to be less than stellar in many cases over the years. Just on the LT we have THREE glaring problems, at least two of them would take little effort on BMW's part to make less problematic, but they have to know how many warranty claims they are spending WAY too many dollars on, and still have done nothing to address them.

Number one, but probably hardest to change, is the rear drive bearing failures.
Obviously, I've noted the discussion here on that. Hopefully, my '06 will not be subjected to that defect.

Quote:
Number two, and easiest to make less problematic, is the slave cylinder leakage taking out the clutch. Drilling a drain hole will not stop the cylinder failures, but will limit the repair to replacing the cylinder, instead of a much more expensive clutch replacement.
I've read, with rapt attention, your posts on that issue. I'm presently willing to allow BMW to show me they built my bike so it will function without that problem. If that's not the case, I'm gonna' be really unhappy.

Quote:
Number three, and two people have taken it into their own hands to come up with a repair solution, is the WAY too often breakage of the trunk opening handle.
I've seen all the traffic. I'll surely be in line for one of the aftermarket parts if/when I have that problem.

So, I acknowledge your points. But, I'll just point out that there's not a perfect bike on the face of this earth. They all have issues and idiosyncracies. Would that it were different. It's not.

Far be it from me to think I can best the engineering these companies (and, that's a plural, you'll note, because I've owned many other bikes, and still now own a '04 Goldwing) bring to market. Maybe you can. But, in my little insignificant mind, screwing around with the design of all these production-level machines makes more heat than light. YMMV.

Last edited by CriticalMass; Mar 21st, 2006 at 9:31 pm.
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post #28 of 30 Old Mar 22nd, 2006, 9:12 am
 
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I hear that. And, at times, it's actually therapeutic.
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post #29 of 30 Old Mar 22nd, 2006, 12:15 pm
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post #30 of 30 Old Mar 22nd, 2006, 12:36 pm
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Originally Posted by dshealey
It is strange that you had the vacuum in the tank before plugging the engine vacuum line to the cannister, but not after! In any case, leaving the cannister in line with the tank vent, but now with no air flow when the engine is running to clear it, you may eventually have a plugged cannister, then get a tank vacuum when it cannot vent as fuel is used.
I was on a rainy trip, went to fill up and had vacuum on the tank, so did some checking. The vent line from the cannister to atmosphere that exits at the right saddlebag had sucked water up into it so it wasn't getting any venting with this line plugged. Figured at this point that the engine vacuum/purging action was pulling water into the line and causing the vacuum issue I was having, so I took care of that by plugging the vacuum line from the engine purge. Now the tank vents through the cannister before heading out into the atmosphere. I do check the vent line occasionally and at every oil change to make sure it is still open and venting from the tank, I believe this purges the system to some degree. The may not be the best method but it works for me and I don't have any gas smells in the garage. If the cannister ever plugs on me, I'll bypass it at that time.

Randal Tebeau
Blairsville, GA
CMA National Evangelist SE Region
BMWMOA, AMA, ABATE
2006 K1200LT
1996 F650
rdtebeau is offline  
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