where is the charcoal cannister - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 3:35 pm Thread Starter
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where is the charcoal cannister

I have a 2000 lt with 13k miles its sputtering real bad on cold start but when reach temp it idle very smooth checked all vaccum hose there all in place so next step is removing the canister if I can find it...any help is appreciated
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post #2 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 3:39 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Under the top case.

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post #3 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 3:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

top case? were is that
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post #4 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 4:02 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

If you remove the rear seat you will see the tubing that goes to the charcoal cannister. They also have junctions you can disconnect. So you can do a cannisterectomy without removing the top case (other wise known as a trunk). There are two lines of tubing one on the left side and one on the right side. One is the vent line FROM the tank breather. The other is from the cannister back TO the vent valve at the throttle bodies. Find the lines (as I can't remember which is which). Undo both lines and with the gas cap removed blow into each line (the end that points to the front of the bike). The one you can hear blowing into the tank is the one you leave open. The other you can't blow though is the one you should plug.

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post #5 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 5:55 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
If you remove the rear seat you will see the tubing that goes to the charcoal cannister. They also have junctions you can disconnect. So you can do a cannisterectomy without removing the top case (other wise known as a trunk). There are two lines of tubing one on the left side and one on the right side. One is the vent line FROM the tank breather. The other is from the cannister back TO the vent valve at the throttle bodies. Find the lines (as I can't remember which is which). Undo both lines and with the gas cap removed blow into each line (the end that points to the front of the bike). The one you can hear blowing into the tank is the one you leave open. The other you can't blow though is the one you should plug.
The tank vent hose is on the rider's right; the purge path hose to the solenoid and throttle bodies is on the rider's left.

If you do it this way, the plugged line can stay where it is, but the tank vent should be re-routed along side the tank bib's drain hose, i.e., along the bottom of the tank/along the top of the right crankcase, to come out behind the right swingarm pivot/right footpeg plate area. The reason is if you leave the right hose in place, you form a low spot in the hose between the canister end and the tank vent end -- a place for liquids/crud to gather and potentially eventually clog the hose, just like a clogged canister.

On your original post, "sputtering real bad on cold start but when reach temp it idle very smooth" doesn't sound like a canister issue to me. What do you think, John? Defective temp sensor telling the Moronic the bike isn't cold??

Of course, we are assuming the rest of the bike is up to snuff, i.e., valve clearances recently checked/set, battery in good shape (and load tested good), good spark plugs, ignition wires, air filter, etc.

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #6 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 6:33 pm Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

bike is ok new plug,air filter, reflo the injectors. new gas filter the only thing I have not replace is the spark plug wires they seem ok for 13k miles. and should I just go ahead and replace all vacuum lines bikes is 11 yrs old but been garage a lot cause of injury
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post #7 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 6:35 pm Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

should I just replace the temp sensor and were is it located
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post #8 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 6:40 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Quote:
Originally Posted by printman
should I just replace the temp sensor and were is it located
Before you do this, have you checked the crankcase breather hose for cracks? That would lean out the cold start mixture (when the O2 sensor is not being used by the Moronic), but if not a severe crack, may still be within the range the Moronic can compensate for basedon the O2 sensor output (i.e., explaining of the "ok" warm performance).

Mark Neblett
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post #9 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 6:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

ok where is this hose located
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post #10 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 7:54 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Mark - your are doing such a good job here I will let you give "printman" - who has no name or profile the bad news!!

Dan Finazzo
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post #11 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 8:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

bad news what bad news
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post #12 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2011, 9:45 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Quote:
Originally Posted by printman
bad news what bad news
The crankcase breather hose's location.

HOWEVER, before getting too worried about this, or starting to take the bike apart, check from the front as described below -- while it is not an uncommon problem, it is by no means a certain cause of your cold starting issue. By itself, your low mileage would tend to be against this as the cause, but the old age coupled with the lack of use (rubber drying out) tends to make it more a possibility.

You can see the hose in the photo below (looking toward the rear of the bike from the front forks area; in this pic the Telelever arm has been removed; the hose is visible under the arm when the arm is in place). The hose comes off the stub on the rider's right (left side of the pic, under the main frame backbone) and zig-zags over to the back side of the throttle body stub tubes (common distribution tube).



The throttle rail sits next to the left side of the frame backbone,



so you have to remove the rail to access the tube for replacement (throttle end hose clamps visible in lower right corner of this pic.



A significant pita to replace this hose **IF** this is the problem. A flashlight and an inpsection mirror on the end of a long rod can be used to reach in/view from the fork area before ripping things apart. A tell-tale bit of oil grime in the vicinity of the #4 throttle body is a clue toward this tube being cracked.

Edit: IIRC, if the tank's off, the hose can just be seen under the right side of the frame back bone, looking under the lower part of the electrical box.

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA

Last edited by mneblett; Oct 23rd, 2011 at 9:54 pm.
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post #13 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 7:56 am Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

well seeing that I have the bike turn down already (see picture) ill check those areas
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post #14 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 7:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

today am taking the airbox out to check the hose better
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post #15 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 11:59 am Thread Starter
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Quick question I notice the air filter is oem BMW filter I had the bike for 11yrs now bike has 13k miles because of injury my riding been limited. my 12k check at the dealer that was 5 yrs ago the filter was not change so my estimate the air filter is 11 yrs old. it looks clean those this filter go bad and can this too be the cause of cold start sputering
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post #16 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 12:39 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Quote:
Originally Posted by printman
Quick question I notice the air filter is oem BMW filter I had the bike for 11yrs now bike has 13k miles because of injury my riding been limited. my 12k check at the dealer that was 5 yrs ago the filter was not change so my estimate the air filter is 11 yrs old. it looks clean those this filter go bad and can this too be the cause of cold start sputering
Afraid not -- even if the paper in filter somehow went bad, the LT is somewhat unique in that there is no flow-measuring device in the air inlet path -- air volume is indirectly measured as a function of throttle butterfly position, ambient air temp and a look-up table in the Moronic. So, even if the filter was gone, no difference (the LT is not flow constrained by the filter, BTW); if the filter were totally clogged, you wouldn't have satisfactory running when warm -- and you'd be able to see it when you inspected the filter.

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #17 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 12:42 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

Quote:
Originally Posted by printman
well seeing that I have the bike turn down already (see picture) ill check those areas
You may be able to avoid pulling the airbox -- in the pic of the right side of the bike, not the gap between the frame backbone and the top of the engine, just behind the lower portion of the electric box -- you can inspect most (if not all) of the breather hose through this gap.

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post #18 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 2:38 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

You have to look at this as what can change between cold and hot, cracked vacuum hoses, dirty air filters will effect both warm and cold.
You have closed loop when warm and it will compensate for minor leaks but that correction will also be there in open loop due to adaptives.
I'm not telling you what to do but I think your on the wrong track looking at vacuum hoses and crankcase breathers based on what you describe.
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post #19 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 3:48 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

If you think it's an intake (vacuum leak) you can give it a wiff of WD40 (brake clean works well but if you have an ignition arc you won't be happy) It will pull in the WD and you will note a distinct change in idle RPM's and quality. If that's the case you can direct the tube to localize it.

If you think it's ignition, fill a spray bottle with water and start misting the coil, wires, boots. When you hit it you will hear the arc, if it's in low light you will see it.

If you think it's either the IAT or ECT sensor, disconnect it. Go for a ride, let it cool and see if there is a difference. Disconnecting the sensor will put it at a default temp. The best way is real time data or resistance/temp chart.
Either of these sensors can show an erratic or open reading at a given temp. and be OK otherwise. If you're going to check resistance with a meter and heat gun use an analog meter, the digital can be misleading when it changes scales.
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post #20 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 7:37 pm Thread Starter
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Exclamation Re: where is the charcoal cannister

ok here's were i am now i dicided not to pull the air box I was able to inspect the crankcase hose (very dificult but done) it's soft and still looks new. the boots that connect the air box to the throttle body looks good no cracks. now I notice the vaccumm line to the 4 throttle body were super easy to slip off so I cut the 4 tip of the hose and re-insert it now with some resistence now there tight. now when I start to rebuilt the bike should I disconect the connector that plugs into the air box sensor that the one with the brown wire
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post #21 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2011, 8:52 pm
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Re: where is the charcoal cannister

The easiest, quickest thing you can do is find someone in your area with a GS911.
I just plugged mine into the diagnostic connector and you can read the IAT and ECT in real time, check codes, etc. This will save you a lot of time guessing. I looked for a resistance/temp chart but couldn't find one.
If you unplug the IAT sensor it will go to a default temp that should be somewhere in the 78 deg F. range. so this might give you the same results that you now experience.
The GS911 is your answer.
The manual notes that a faulty IAT sensor can cause hard starts, didn't mention it for the ECT sensor.
I hate to tell anyone to "test with a known good sensor" unless it's free so post a request for help from someone who has a GS911, they won't have to use a vin entry for this.
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