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post #1 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2006, 12:59 am Thread Starter
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Fuel cell questions

The archived auxiliary fuel cell posts, pictures and suggestions have been invaluable to me in selecting the setup for my 05.

I am going with a tail dragger/rear fender type installation and using a three or five gallon tank from JAZ http://www.jazproducts.com/index2.htm

The one I am considering is the "Drag race vertical model" about half way down the page. I will fabricate a removable mounting bracket and generally understand the plumbing requirements including shut off and filters.

There are a couple of questions I have not been able to find the answers to.

I will be installing a Facet fuel pump http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/P...RICE|1/s-10101 to the return line. What PSI and GPH rating should it have?

I notice some pumps are for fuel injected motors and some not, does it matter which one you buy since it is going to the return line?

Lastly, the three gallon comes as plastic or aluminium. Is one material preferable to the other for this application?

Ron Wilkerson
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post #2 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2006, 9:01 am
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Ron,
I would go with the higher PSI. I am using a NAPA pump and I think it is 7 PSI. The return line has some pressure in it as well. I also had to install a one-way valve to prevent the filled main tank from backfilling into the auxilary tank. I bought an anti-syphen valve at a boat shop (used between dual tanks). I am not sure how durable it is but it can be replaced easily. An electric shutoff valve could also be used. This link shows some detail on the plumbing as well: http://members.cox.net/bmw-ldrider/FuelCellDesign.pdf
I would go with the aluminum tank if possible, just seems safer to me.
I have the tail-dragger mount as well. I have only run it on a couple trips, but really like the fact that it leaves the back seat free to hold a large duffle bag.

Lowell
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post #3 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2006, 2:10 pm Thread Starter
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Lowell,

Thanks for the reply.

I am very interested in how exactly you fabricated the rear mount for the tank. What did you use as anchor points and support braces? Do you have any pictures of your mounting bracket?

What tank did you use and what capacity?

Ron Wilkerson
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post #4 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2006, 3:28 pm
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>snip Lastly, the three gallon comes as plastic or aluminium. Is one material preferable to the other for this application?
__________________

Stay away from the plastic fuel cell. The plastic cells expand in the heat, Followed by the tank puking it guts out (gas). Metal tanks are stable.

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post #5 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2006, 3:29 pm
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Cool what happens if you prang it up...insurance wise??

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMW
The archived auxiliary fuel cell posts, pictures and suggestions have been invaluable to me in selecting the setup for my 05.

I am going with a tail dragger/rear fender type installation and using a three or five gallon tank from JAZ http://www.jazproducts.com/index2.htm

<snip>

What PSI and GPH rating should it have?

Lastly, the three gallon comes as plastic or aluminium. Is one material preferable to the other for this application?

G'day Ron,
Just wondering how you guys go for an insurance claim if ever basic motorcycling rule 101 fails ("do not fall off motorcycle")????

I did for a while replumb the fuel filter to beneath the pillion seat, which then took me all of about 4 minutes to change the fuel filter,.....but then I got paranoid that this was just too easy of an out for my insurance company to say sorry we're not gonna pay you anything cos you have "re-engineered" the bike to non BMW specifications...blah blah blah...if I broke rule 101...so I put the fuel filter back in the tank...just as well I kept that small piece of kinked fuel line huh??

you get the drift.....


interested from Oz........

Philll
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post #6 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2006, 6:30 pm Thread Starter
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Pete,

I have used plastic fuel cells in boats and never had a problem but there they were not exposed to direct sunlight so you make a valid point.

thanks

Phill,

I really haven't given that issue much thought. If modifications were a problem there would be a whole bunch of folks that would never be paid their insurance claims. Cars, boats, planes and bikes are regularly modified and an entire multi-billion dollar industry thrives on "improving" what we buy. Hell, individualizing our toys is an American right, says so right there in the bill of rights. I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere?

If the modification were the primary cause of the claim I suppose that would be a concern.

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post #7 of 19 Old Mar 13th, 2006, 4:29 pm
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Cool maybe you should ask your insurance company before..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMW

Phill,

I really haven't given that issue much thought. If modifications were a problem there would be a whole bunch of folks that would never be paid their insurance claims. Cars, boats, planes and bikes are regularly modified and an entire multi-billion dollar industry thrives on "improving" what we buy. Hell, individualizing our toys is an American right, says so right there in the bill of rights. I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere?

If the modification were the primary cause of the claim I suppose that would be a concern.
Hi Ron,

Unfortunately insurance companies are "forever" trying to maximise profits (like every other business I spose)...and to try and argue the point after your machine has cinderised itself due to some "non manufacturer design" leaves you pretty much out on the end of an every tapering branch.

Yepppp sure there are companies that make nice mods to add to your vehicle, but it then makes the vehicle illegal on the road, (here in Oz anyway) the Police and RTA do their jobs especially with after market exhaust systems (bikes an cars) suspension mods (especially cars) blah blah blah.......I would feel pretty confident in saying the additional fuel cell would be one of these illegal mods that just does not comply to an Aus Standard. (If you remove your visor from your full face helmet, the helmet is then illegal (mandatory use of helmets here in Oz) cos the AS would have included the visor in the testing........and all helmets have to conform to AS1698 (as a sticker on my lid indicates).

good stuff huh??

Just food for thought....my curiosity is itching....perhaps you could ask anonymously????


Phill
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post #8 of 19 Old Mar 13th, 2006, 8:40 pm Thread Starter
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Wow,

To own a vehicle and not be able to modify it would be a tough place for me to live.

If I survive being "cinderised" I expect replacing the bike will be the least of my concerns.

Legislators are compelled to do what they do best, intrude on other's freedoms, for the greater good of course, or just to justify their own existence. I expect someday they will legislate our sport into obscruity if we let them. Until then, I will ride and modify my bike as I see fit and at my own risk if need be.

Guess we all have to decide what amount of risk we are willing and/or can afford to live with and then just ride, or not.

Very interesting insights into the laws in the land of Oz thanks for the comments. Think I will stay here!

Ron Wilkerson
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post #9 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 8:21 am
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Sorry for the late response...been busy the last few days. Here is my original post: http://www.bmwlt.net/ubbthreads/show...=&view=&sb=&o=
It also has a link to the post that I copied the design from.
My mounting points are using "U" clamps to the outer rear corners of the side bag supports and "U" clamps on the upper round bar behind the license plate holder. Not fancy welding, but it held the tank in place for at least 8000 miles, so far.
I don't really have good pictures of the mounting frame, but can take some if you would like. Just PM me.

Lowell
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post #10 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 8:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMW
The archived auxiliary fuel cell posts, pictures and suggestions have been invaluable to me in selecting the setup for my 05.

Speaking of Fuel cells, I just talked to my fabricator yesterday he is ready to start mine, it will be built to go under the tour pack, avoiding any issues of having to remove a tail dragger in case of a road side tire repair/rear ender, also leaving the rear seat intact in case of a passenger
I sure hope this works out good!

Tom

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post #11 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 11:48 am
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I had exactly the same thought, Tom. Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #12 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 1:25 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
I had exactly the same thought, Tom. Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

I've been waiting to do this over a year or so now, I was headed out in the AM but now I may have to wait till next week to get down there.

Tom

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post #13 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 2:17 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
Speaking of Fuel cells, I just talked to my fabricator yesterday he is ready to start mine, it will be built to go under the tour pack, avoiding any issues of having to remove a tail dragger in case of a road side tire repair/rear ender, also leaving the rear seat intact in case of a passenger
I sure hope this works out good!

Tom
Tom,

Under the tour pack? Sorry, not sure I know what you mean but it sounds interesting. Could you elaborate a bit?

thanks

Ron Wilkerson
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post #14 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 2:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMW
Tom,

Under the tour pack? Sorry, not sure I know what you mean but it sounds interesting. Could you elaborate a bit?

thanks

I spoke of this sometime back here, I want to put one under my tour pack, i figured the dimensions out and it will raise the tour pack about 4.5 inches to give it just under 5gl capacity, keeping the max fuel capacity at IBR regulations, then you will not have to loose your back seat and or put a tail dragger on, lessening the change of BOOM in a rear ender or having to remove a tail dragger for rear tire repair or changes, it will be baffled to keep from having it slosh, also they usually are either full or empty so sloshing should not be much of a problem at all anyhow.

Plus it can be gravity feed to the main tank so no pump will be required, I am also looking into venting it to the bikes OEM venting system to use the charcoal canister, I know some folks remove them, but the one thing I do not miss having bikes with the canister is the garage smelling of gasoline with so many bike in there all the time, we currently have four bikes with canisters in my garage now and there is no gas smell like i had with 5 hd's in the garage.

if you want to play with a spread sheet I made for the tank sizes go here www.bikershut.net its on the #left# bottom of the site in a MS excel spreadsheet, I put in the IBR size limit for two wheeled bikes (hacks and trikes are larger)

you can put the bikes OEM capacity in it it will then show you the max capacity tank you can have so you do not exceed the IBR rules, ok Keep inmind they count the amount of fuel in your lines to the main tank so cut it short however much line you use , anyhow you can see how many CI your tank needs to be, then you can oput in different sizes to see how much volume your tank will be

or something like that\

Shoot i guess i should have added we will do a pattern so it will be easier for him to make more, mine will be a test one for a short time to see if and or work out any issues,

then we will more than likely make one or two more and see if they sell.

This fellow has been a good friend of mine for a long long time and is a heck of a welder specializing in aluminums, he has more years welding than most anyone I know of

Tom

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Last edited by tmgs; Mar 14th, 2006 at 2:39 pm.
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post #15 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 3:44 pm Thread Starter
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Tom,

Remove top box, bolt tank to area behind seat, bolt top box back onto the top of the gas tank.

Is that about right?

Ron Wilkerson
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post #16 of 19 Old Mar 14th, 2006, 5:18 pm
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Tom,

Remove top box, bolt tank to area behind seat, bolt top box back onto the top of the gas tank.

Is that about right?
yup, the tank will actually take up the full width and length, maybe put the filler behind the top box a little added length there will be nice to strap something on top of as well. the bolts would actually go through the tank with built in solid spacers so the vibration does not have any effect on the tank

Tom

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post #17 of 19 Old Mar 15th, 2006, 12:25 am Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

Sounds terrific!


Stuart was kind enough to spend some time on the phone giving me his thoughts on his tail dragger set up. (Thanks again Stuart)

I am going investigate a few more options before I move so I will be eager to see how yours comes out.

Best of luck.

Ron Wilkerson
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post #18 of 19 Old Mar 15th, 2006, 7:10 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMW
Sounds terrific!


Stuart was kind enough to spend some time on the phone giving me his thoughts on his tail dragger set up. (Thanks again Stuart)

I am going investigate a few more options before I move so I will be eager to see how yours comes out.

Best of luck.
hopefully I will know in a couple weeks, next week we are going to do the pattern then he get all the materials, some type of aircraft aluminum, he siad it less likely to crack doe to road bumps and vibrations

Tom

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post #19 of 19 Old Mar 22nd, 2006, 8:33 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
I had exactly the same thought, Tom. Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

I'm down here now, and we went over the tank stuff yesterday, we will be getting stuff together tomorrow on this, I'm looking into making sure there is room for expansion and not be able to over fill the GL limit for IBR rules

It;s looking good, will be made correctly with baffles

Tom

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