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post #151 of 225 Old Jul 30th, 2017, 9:38 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

A very good friend of mine is a manager at a Timken plant......Love for him to get his hands on one of the bearings and let those in engineering look at them.
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post #152 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 1:42 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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A very good friend of mine is a manager at a Timken plant......Love for him to get his hands on one of the bearings and let those in engineering look at them.
The bearings aren't the problem.

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post #153 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 4:24 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I know its a design flaw.....but it would be nice to actually see a in depth report from a engineering stand point.
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post #154 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 4:54 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I know its a design flaw.....but it would be nice to actually see a in depth report from a engineering stand point.
How do you know it is a design flaw? Upon what data do you base your assertion?

There has been substantial discussion and analysis on this site in the past including by at least one engineer who I believe was quite familiar with bearings. The consensus is that there is no design flaw, at least not a first order flaw. I would argue maybe a second order flaw, but even that is somewhat controversial.
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post #155 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 8:26 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

If the rear end will not live out the life of the bike as most cars do it is a design flaw in my book.....even with proper set up I don't see one going 150-200K which is what I would consider the life of the bike. (I have no true numbers there, its just a opinion).

I quit riding them in 01 and in 2017 its still a issue. I know in 01 after 2 coming out in 12K miles I was dang well going back to a Yamaha Venture, which although a great bike not nearly as good as the LT in a variety of ways. At that time everyone was mostly shrugging their shoulders. I came here to see where it stood before I bought another. I will probably set up my spare just to do one but as I mentioned earlier I will let him(Saddleman) put hands on my primary. I have a complete machine shop.

I have done my share of riding. Motocross racing, cross country and drag racing not to mention touring and dabbed in some road racing. My share of wrenching and machine work. I saw design flaws in many of the bikes I have owned. They gave trouble in varying ways.........all bikes have some issues as do any mechanical device that man has ever built. I can show you some real nice ones on a cbx..

Not here to really argue the point. Its just MY opinion. Nothing else.


Take care..

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post #156 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 9:04 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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If the rear end will not live out the life of the bike as most cars do it is a design flaw in my book.....even with proper set up I don't see one going 150-200K which is what I would consider the life of the bike. (I have no true numbers there, its just a opinion).

I quit riding them in 01 and in 2017 its still a issue. I know in 01 after 2 coming out in 12K miles I was dang well going back to a Yamaha Venture, which although a great bike not nearly as good as the LT in a variety of ways. At that time everyone was mostly shrugging their shoulders. I came here to see where it stood before I bought another. I will probably set up my spare just to do one but as I mentioned earlier I will let him(Saddleman) put hands on my primary. I have a complete machine shop.

I have done my share of riding. Motocross racing, cross country and drag racing not to mention touring and dabbed in some road racing. My share of wrenching and machine work. I saw design flaws in many of the bikes I have owned. They gave trouble in varying ways.........all bikes have some issues as do any mechanical device that man has ever built. I can show you some real nice ones on a cbx..

Not here to really argue the point. Its just MY opinion. Nothing else.


Take care..
Not picking a fight but I do have to ask. How many wheel bearings have you replaced on cars? I can say I have done quite a few in 50 years of wrenching as that is where the load is and any bearing that is set up improperly will fail prematurely. On a car, the primary load carrying bearing is not on the ring gear. Just wanted to make that distinction. Not debating about any possible underlying problem but your comparison is incorrect. When set up properly, these final drives have proven quite reliable. Wish I had a full or even a partial machine shop at my disposal. I wouldn't have to be quite so creative to accomplish some repairs

Gordon
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2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #157 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 9:27 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I have 2 car lifts in my shop along with a Handy air lift for bikes. I just put a wheel bearing in last week...on my "dog" car. Its a old saturn that I ride my weimmy's in. Plastic race in those suckers....it made it 124K though.

When someone shows me a 200K final drive I will buy the story its a set up problem and not a design flaw. I think the bike is to heavy for the intended original design of the FD.

Just my opinion. Nothing more. Like butt holes...everyone got one. Plus I eat crow more than once...it taste bad too.



Yeah, no need arguing or fussing about it. Its what we are handed to deal with.
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post #158 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 9:34 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
I have 2 car lifts in my shop along with a Handy air lift for bikes. I just put a wheel bearing in last week...on my "dog" car. Its a old saturn that I ride my weimmy's in. Plastic race in those suckers....it made it 124K though.

When someone shows me a 200K final drive I will buy the story its a set up problem and not a design flaw. I think the bike is to heavy for the intended original design of the FD.

Just my opinion. Nothing more. Like butt holes...everyone got one. Plus I eat crow more than once...it taste bad too.



Yeah, no need arguing or fussing about it. Its what we are handed to deal with.
Well, get that FD off to Saddleman and give it a test

Gordon
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post #159 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 9:41 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Yeap....just called about a spare tonight. In 01 there were none....few out there now.
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post #160 of 225 Old Jul 31st, 2017, 9:59 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Yeap....just called about a spare tonight. In 01 there were none....few out there now.
I too have a spare. Bought it on Ebay and having already done my primary preemptively myself as a learning experience, I took it apart to check it planning to send it to Saddleman to rebuild. To my surprise, it checked out to be perfect in all respects, or at least as close as I can check with what I have from my earlier efforts. I replaced the seals as a precaution and put it back together awaiting use at some future time as needed. I have a sneaking suspicion that it may have already passed through Dave's hands with the condition it was in but no way for me to tell.

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post #161 of 225 Old Aug 1st, 2017, 6:13 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by cbxchris View Post
If the rear end will not live out the life of the bike as most cars do it is a design flaw in my book.....even with proper set up I don't see one going 150-200K which is what I would consider the life of the bike. (I have no true numbers there, its just a opinion).

I quit riding them in 01 and in 2017 its still a issue. I know in 01 after 2 coming out in 12K miles I was dang well going back to a Yamaha Venture, which although a great bike not nearly as good as the LT in a variety of ways. At that time everyone was mostly shrugging their shoulders. I came here to see where it stood before I bought another. I will probably set up my spare just to do one but as I mentioned earlier I will let him(Saddleman) put hands on my primary. I have a complete machine shop.

I have done my share of riding. Motocross racing, cross country and drag racing not to mention touring and dabbed in some road racing. My share of wrenching and machine work. I saw design flaws in many of the bikes I have owned. They gave trouble in varying ways.........all bikes have some issues as do any mechanical device that man has ever built. I can show you some real nice ones on a cbx..

Not here to really argue the point. Its just MY opinion. Nothing else.


Take care..
Ok, I thought maybe you had expertise and data, but I see you have only an uninformed opinion. Got it.
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post #162 of 225 Old Aug 1st, 2017, 10:58 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

If you only knew what I have been involved in......I am also a mechanical engineer by my schooling which made a sudden turn into communications. Carry on with making friends on the forum.........you are really good at it.
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post #163 of 225 Old Sep 16th, 2017, 2:17 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Man o man, I have read this discussion about five times. It is a crazy problem to have to worry about. Makes sense to me that a single swing arm will have bearing problems just by virtue of having to support from only one side.
Anyway good news is there is so much information, videos, detailed instructions etc that solutions are out there.
Myself am having big grungy deposits on oil plug, no metal visible in oil other than trace amounts.
Seems to me like there should be a way to test on center stand and just noticed post using electronic stethoscope. Interesting.
Just really want to say thank you to some of the senior members, you are invaluable as a source of reference.
Most likely will ebay a replacement and send it Saddleman to get re-built.
LT is worth it as I have had other bikes, not even close to the smooth ride and comfort level of the BMW.
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post #164 of 225 Old Sep 16th, 2017, 2:58 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Man o man, I have read this discussion about five times. It is a crazy problem to have to worry about. Makes sense to me that a single swing arm will have bearing problems just by virtue of having to support from only one side.
Anyway good news is there is so much information, videos, detailed instructions etc that solutions are out there.
Myself am having big grungy deposits on oil plug, no metal visible in oil other than trace amounts.
Seems to me like there should be a way to test on center stand and just noticed post using electronic stethoscope. Interesting.
Just really want to say thank you to some of the senior members, you are invaluable as a source of reference.
Most likely will ebay a replacement and send it Saddleman to get re-built.
LT is worth it as I have had other bikes, not even close to the smooth ride and comfort level of the BMW.
Yep, I have a spare in the wings also. An electronic stethoscope might allow you to hear the beginning signs of a failing bearing but you would have to know what to listen for, otherwise it would just be noise. Make sure you get the right one with or without the speed sensor on it. 02 US and newer have no hole on the top for the sensor as it was moved to the transmission.

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post #165 of 225 Old Jan 24th, 2018, 7:50 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Has anyone tried mos2 molydenum disulphide in the FD? It is capable of preventing galling at 400,000 psi. Once worked & burnished into the metal surface it can only be removed by grinding. I know a properly set up FD works well but they still seem subject to a design that is on the ragged edge at best. NEVER use mos2 in a hydraulic lifter engine...I found out the hard way on a Harley.
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post #166 of 225 Old Jan 24th, 2018, 8:09 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Has anyone tried mos2 molydenum disulphide in the FD? It is capable of preventing galling at 400,000 psi. Once worked & burnished into the metal surface it can only be removed by grinding. I know a properly set up FD works well but they still seem subject to a design that is on the ragged edge at best. NEVER use mos2 in a hydraulic lifter engine...I found out the hard way on a Harley.
No, because it won't help. The failures appear due to metal fatigue from excess load on the ball bearings. This is not a lubrication/sliding friction issue.

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post #167 of 225 Old Jan 24th, 2018, 9:19 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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No, because it won't help. The failures appear due to metal fatigue from excess load on the ball bearings. This is not a lubrication/sliding friction issue.
If the friction is reduced the load would be also. I'm not saying the FD should not go through a proper shimming procedure. I would try the additive in my bike as I've had good luck with it.
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post #168 of 225 Old Jan 24th, 2018, 9:23 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I have 2 car lifts in my shop along with a Handy air lift for bikes. I just put a wheel bearing in last week...on my "dog" car. Its a old saturn that I ride my weimmy's in. Plastic race in those suckers....it made it 124K though.

When someone shows me a 200K final drive I will buy the story its a set up problem and not a design flaw. I think the bike is to heavy for the intended original design of the FD.

Just my opinion. Nothing more. Like butt holes...everyone got one. Plus I eat crow more than once...it taste bad too.



Yeah, no need arguing or fussing about it. Its what we are handed to deal with.
Yep, it looks to a newby like the FD is just not big enough for this hp/weight application.
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post #169 of 225 Old Jan 25th, 2018, 7:51 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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If the friction is reduced the load would be also. I'm not saying the FD should not go through a proper shimming procedure. I would try the additive in my bike as I've had good luck with it.
Except that it isn't. If a 50 lb steel ball is sitting on a steel plate, the plate feels a 50 lb load whether the plate is dry or covered in oil. The balls in a bearing roll, they don't slide like hypoid gear teeth or plain bearings.

Most pictures I've seen posted by CharlieVT, Saddleman and others look like failure modes of metal fatigue from the gross overload caused by improper shimming (see reference below). This causes the balls to deform the race as they roll and this cyclic deformation leads to metal fatigue at the surface of the race. Lubrication won't help this and might actually make it worse as a thicker oil film just means the balls are deforming the races even more. However, I suspect the force is sufficient in these grossly mis-shimmed drives to completely break through the oil film allowing metal to metal contact.

https://www.schaeffler.com/remotemed...ures_us_en.pdf
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post #170 of 225 Old Jan 25th, 2018, 8:13 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Yep, it looks to a newby like the FD is just not big enough for this hp/weight application.
Some years ago a saw the load data for one of the bearing brands BMW used in this application and it was substantially more than required. I don't think the issues are at all design related, at least not in the purely mechanical sense.

I would argue, and have in the past, that the issue is one of design for assembly or design for manufacturing. The design allows for easily made assembly errors and that, I believe, is the root cause. From what I have heard from Saddleman, Tom Cutter (rebuilt my FD) and others, a properly assembled FD will run for a 100,000 miles without breaking a sweat and using plain old Castrol 80W90 gear oil. No snake oil additives required.
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post #171 of 225 Old Jan 25th, 2018, 10:29 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Except that it isn't. If a 50 lb steel ball is sitting on a steel plate, the plate feels a 50 lb load whether the plate is dry or covered in oil. The balls in a bearing roll, they don't slide like hypoid gear teeth or plain bearings.

Most pictures I've seen posted by CharlieVT, Saddleman and others look like failure modes of metal fatigue from the gross overload caused by improper shimming (see reference below). This causes the balls to deform the race as they roll and this cyclic deformation leads to metal fatigue at the surface of the race. Lubrication won't help this and might actually make it worse as a thicker oil film just means the balls are deforming the races even more. However, I suspect the force is sufficient in these grossly mis-shimmed drives to completely break through the oil film allowing metal to metal contact.

https://www.schaeffler.com/remotemed...ures_us_en.pdf
& that is the problem...the oil film is broken through. The taper rollers? not balls are radially loaded beyond capacity. Is a Goldwing FD this finiky? This should be a 300,000 mile assembly, not 100,000. The bean counters got at this with their finite analysis. Yes, shimming makes it better but still does not address the design flaw of a FD that is too small for the power of the brick.
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post #172 of 225 Old Jan 25th, 2018, 11:17 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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& that is the problem...the oil film is broken through. The taper rollers? not balls are radially loaded beyond capacity. Is a Goldwing FD this finiky? This should be a 300,000 mile assembly, not 100,000. The bean counters got at this with their finite analysis. Yes, shimming makes it better but still does not address the design flaw of a FD that is too small for the power of the brick.
You clearly have no engineering understanding so I will waste no more of my time. It is your right to be wrong. Good luck with your moly as it won't make a bit of difference if your shimming is wrong.

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post #173 of 225 Old Jan 25th, 2018, 12:24 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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You clearly have no engineering understanding so I will waste no more of my time. It is your right to be wrong. Good luck with your moly as it won't make a bit of difference if your shimming is wrong.
I respect your right to your opinion...we both like the LT's so there is that.
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post #174 of 225 Old Jan 28th, 2018, 8:55 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Does anyone know what the highest mileage FD is to date?

Just curious.

I know bikes seldom make the mileage most cars do. What would be considered acceptable?

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post #175 of 225 Old Jan 29th, 2018, 2:31 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Don Arthur had 304,000 on his 2000 when he totaled it on the way to an Iron Butt Rally. I have 106,000 on my 05 and I think Zeke has over 400K on his. No FD issues

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #176 of 225 Old Jan 30th, 2018, 6:48 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Are those examples as is from the factory? If so that would somewhat make the case stronger that it is a assembly/quality control issue.
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Are those examples as is from the factory? If so that would somewhat make the case stronger that it is a assembly/quality control issue.
Hi cbxchris,

The modes of failure and reasons for those failures have been discussed ad naseum on this forum over the past decade and a half. Early posts were more speculative, but later posts on the subject were based on the input of multiple knowledgeable folks, including a variety of professional mechanics, bearing specialists, mechanical engineers who all contributed to our collective understanding of the subject. I personally cut open about 50 failed crownwheel bearings to inspect and photograph damage to roller balls and races. Many of those pictures were posted on this site over the years for others to analyze and comment on. The consensus view is not the result of individual speculation, rather the result of considered analysis of many persons over time.

I will recapitulate here. In summary the evidence suggests (and I think this remains the consensus view of those who are knowledgable about these final drives):

Known failures include "the classic crown wheel bearing failure", the "creeping input pinion bearing", the "spinning tapered roller bearing", and the "spinning aluminum trunnion" of the crown gear assembly (my nomenclature, such as it is).

The classic crownwheel bearing failure is the result of assembly errors. It is not a lubrication problem, a bearing problem, nor a design flaw. (Unless you want to make the case that the design made it too easy for the assembly workers to shim it improperly. But I think that is more related to the assembly tooling than it is related to the actual final drive itself.)
Over shimming at the factory set the stage for premature crown wheel bearing failure. I have speculated on how this seemingly routine over shimming may have occured; I refer you to my earlier posts on the subject.

The creeping input pinion race is probably a machining tolerance error resulting in an insufficient interference press fit of that race on its seat on the input pinion shaft that allows this bearing to slowly creep off the shaft. Early stages of this bearing race creep can only been seen during open inspection of the final drive. Late stages of this failure become destructive to the internal housing of the final drive and eventually interfere with the tapered roller bearing. In the early bikes with a speedometer sensor mounted on the final drive housing, the speedometer sending ring can be displaced causing speedometer failure being an early symptom of this failure.

Likewise, the spinning race of the tapered roller bearing is likely an machining error resulting in insufficent press fit of that race on its seat on the crown gear assembly. This failure was often an incidental finding during inspection and repair of crownwheel bearing failures.

The spinning aluminum trunnion in its seat in the carbon steel crown gear is again a machining error resulting in insufficient press fit. (This is the failure that is most often detected during a wheel removal when the final drive gear lube comes out the lug bolt holes of the crown gear assembly.)

Other various failures I have seen reported seem to be "one-offs" with no obvious explanation.

In summary, the failures of the K1200LT final drives are the result of assembly or machining errors in fabrication.

Since the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure is by far the most common, and the one that often leaves folks stranded on the road, it is easy for people to think of this as the only cause of final drive failures.

After 2005, BMW had pretty well figured out they had a problem and the "plume" of crown wheel bearing failures was over.

For bikes prior to 2005 I have been an advocate of a preemptive rebuild by a knowledgeable rebuilder (Dave Selvig, Tom Cutter, not your local BMW dealer) as road insurance.
In my opionion, the cost of a good rebuild is cheaper than in interupted trip, a couple few nights in a hotel, bike towing, etc.

In summary, unless you know the history of an early (99-04) K1200LT final drive, it is a crap shoot. Since these bikes are now many years old, there's no telling what any particular final drive has been through. Many have been rebuilt by a summary replacement with a new crownwheel bearing without proper preload setup, and without regard for inspecting for other known failures.

With a final drive rebuild by someone like Dave Selvig, you can be confident that the drive will easily go at least 100Kmiles trouble free.
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post #178 of 225 Old Jan 31st, 2018, 9:02 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by CharlieVT View Post
Hi cbxchris,

The modes of failure and reasons for those failures have been discussed ad naseum on this forum over the past decade and a half. Early posts were more speculative, but later posts on the subject were based on the input of multiple knowledgeable folks, including a variety of professional mechanics, bearing specialists, mechanical engineers who all contributed to our collective understanding of the subject. I personally cut open about 50 failed crownwheel bearings to inspect and photograph damage to roller balls and races. Many of those pictures were posted on this site over the years for others to analyze and comment on. The consensus view is not the result of individual speculation, rather the result of considered analysis of many persons over time.

I will recapitulate here. In summary the evidence suggests (and I think this remains the consensus view of those who are knowledgable about these final drives):

Known failures include "the classic crown wheel bearing failure", the "creeping input pinion bearing", the "spinning tapered roller bearing", and the "spinning aluminum trunnion" of the crown gear assembly (my nomenclature, such as it is).

The classic crownwheel bearing failure is the result of assembly errors. It is not a lubrication problem, a bearing problem, nor a design flaw. (Unless you want to make the case that the design made it too easy for the assembly workers to shim it improperly. But I think that is more related to the assembly tooling than it is related to the actual final drive itself.)
Over shimming at the factory set the stage for premature crown wheel bearing failure. I have speculated on how this seemingly routine over shimming may have occured; I refer you to my earlier posts on the subject.

The creeping input pinion race is probably a machining tolerance error resulting in an insufficient interference press fit of that race on its seat on the input pinion shaft that allows this bearing to slowly creep off the shaft. Early stages of this bearing race creep can only been seen during open inspection of the final drive. Late stages of this failure become destructive to the internal housing of the final drive and eventually interfere with the tapered roller bearing. In the early bikes with a speedometer sensor mounted on the final drive housing, the speedometer sending ring can be displaced causing speedometer failure being an early symptom of this failure.

Likewise, the spinning race of the tapered roller bearing is likely an machining error resulting in insufficent press fit of that race on its seat on the crown gear assembly. This failure was often an incidental finding during inspection and repair of crownwheel bearing failures.

The spinning aluminum trunnion in its seat in the carbon steel crown gear is again a machining error resulting in insufficient press fit. (This is the failure that is most often detected during a wheel removal when the final drive gear lube comes out the lug bolt holes of the crown gear assembly.)

Other various failures I have seen reported seem to be "one-offs" with no obvious explanation.

In summary, the failures of the K1200LT final drives are the result of assembly or machining errors in fabrication.

Since the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure is by far the most common, and the one that often leaves folks stranded on the road, it is easy for people to think of this as the only cause of final drive failures.

After 2005, BMW had pretty well figured out they had a problem and the "plume" of crown wheel bearing failures was over.

For bikes prior to 2005 I have been an advocate of a preemptive rebuild by a knowledgeable rebuilder (Dave Selvig, Tom Cutter, not your local BMW dealer) as road insurance.
In my opionion, the cost of a good rebuild is cheaper than in interupted trip, a couple few nights in a hotel, bike towing, etc.

In summary, unless you know the history of an early (99-04) K1200LT final drive, it is a crap shoot. Since these bikes are now many years old, there's no telling what any particular final drive has been through. Many have been rebuilt by a summary replacement with a new crownwheel bearing without proper preload setup, and without regard for inspecting for other known failures.

With a final drive rebuild by someone like Dave Selvig, you can be confident that the drive will easily go at least 100Kmiles trouble free.
Bearings, crownwheels, improper machining. The German giant could'nt do any better than this?
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post #179 of 225 Old Feb 4th, 2018, 2:29 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Bearings, crownwheels, improper machining. The German giant could'nt do any better than this?
Pre-retirement I was a mechengr designer of several gearboxes (among a lot of other weirder stuff). I've thought about this problem a lot. The combination of available bearings, being a high speed gearbox transmitting a lot of power & torque, having to be minimum weight, etc - it ain't easy, and they have done a lot of things right in the FD. Yeah, they missed it but I'm more critical that they didn't get on the assembly procedure problem more quickly.

Just like spline problems in oilheads, the communication between BMW warranty, service people and quality control people is suspect.
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post #180 of 225 Old Feb 4th, 2018, 5:51 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Pre-retirement I was a mechengr designer of several gearboxes (among a lot of other weirder stuff). I've thought about this problem a lot. The combination of available bearings, being a high speed gearbox transmitting a lot of power & torque, having to be minimum weight, etc - it ain't easy, and they have done a lot of things right in the FD. Yeah, they missed it but I'm more critical that they didn't get on the assembly procedure problem more quickly.

Just like spline problems in oilheads, the communication between BMW warranty, service people and quality control people is suspect.
Nailed it my friend! We hear about improper shimming ad nauseum. Where was the production supervisor? How long does it take to put a sensitive torckwrench on the assembled drive & check. Improper shimming would show up instantly. My heritage is half German half Swiss...the other half I'm not sure...& I don't have a lot of tolerance for sloppiness. The workers that have been let into Germany need to be supervised or Honda etc will beat BMW to death. I feel a Chris Harris type rant coming on so thats my 2 cents.
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post #181 of 225 Old Feb 7th, 2018, 8:37 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Nailed it my friend! We hear about improper shimming ad nauseum. Where was the production supervisor? How long does it take to put a sensitive torckwrench on the assembled drive & check. Improper shimming would show up instantly. My heritage is half German half Swiss...the other half I'm not sure...& I don't have a lot of tolerance for sloppiness. The workers that have been let into Germany need to be supervised or Honda etc will beat BMW to death. I feel a Chris Harris type rant coming on so thats my 2 cents.
That in my mind is why Honda quit making bikes in the US. Poor quality control. The infamous Goldwing frame failures come to mind along with many more issues created in Ohio. Not Japan.
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post #182 of 225 Old Feb 7th, 2018, 10:29 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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That in my mind is why Honda quit making bikes in the US. Poor quality control. The infamous Goldwing frame failures come to mind along with many more issues created in Ohio. Not Japan.
I wasn't aware of that. Thought they were still made here. I wish BMW well but they need to make some good engineering decisions.
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post #183 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 10:05 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I wasn't aware of that. Thought they were still made here. I wish BMW well but they need to make some good engineering decisions.
Such as?

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post #184 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 11:05 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Such as?
Do a you tube search on k1600gt/gtl problems & come back at me.
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Do a you tube search on k1600gt/gtl problems & come back at me.
OK, so you made a claim you can't support. Got it.

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post #186 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 3:24 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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OK, so you made a claim you can't support. Got it.
Last I heard you had given up trying to educate me. Now your baaack. There is no sense to this banter that I can see?
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post #187 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 6:25 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Last I heard you had given up trying to educate me. Now your baaack. There is no sense to this banter that I can see?
Everyone deserves a second chance.
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post #188 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 8:35 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Please play nice or I'll have to trim the posts.

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post #189 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 8:57 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

What I have found by reading the 1600 forums is this. I have no intention of selling my LT.....bad FD or not.

I simply wish Honda could build the 1600 for BMW...
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post #190 of 225 Old Feb 8th, 2018, 9:09 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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What I have found by reading the 1600 forums is this. I have no intention of selling my LT.....bad FD or not.

I simply wish Honda could build the 1600 for BMW...
Some of the parts should have been farmed out to Japan. It is expensive to build in Germany & costs are being cut. So much is right with the 1600, shame they were not able to give it 100 percent.
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post #191 of 225 Old Feb 9th, 2018, 8:38 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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What I have found by reading the 1600 forums is this. I have no intention of selling my LT.....bad FD or not.

I simply wish Honda could build the 1600 for BMW...
Or BMW could design the Wing for Honda.
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post #192 of 225 Old Feb 9th, 2018, 9:57 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Or BMW could design the Wing for Honda.
Looks like they did for the 2018 model. It has an LT windshield and a Transverse K bike front end.
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post #193 of 225 Old Feb 9th, 2018, 11:34 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Looks like they did for the 2018 model. It has an LT windshield and a Transverse K bike front end.
True, but it still has 90s level specific HP, the fuel tank capacity of a sport bike and luggage capacity of a sport tourer.

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post #194 of 225 Old Feb 9th, 2018, 12:28 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I have not seen the new wing. Just reading what some of you guys are saying that have. Its somewhat disappointing. I want a true 2 up bike. Comfortable front and rear. Decent HP(to me in the 150 range is fine). LOW seat height, decent slow speed handling. I do NOT care about all the latest tricks and gadgets. Basically a updated yamaha venture royale would be GREAT. With the dependability that Jap bikes are known for.

I think Yamaha had the closest chance at succeeding until some MORON put that Harley want to be engine in it. Maybe they should notice harley can't sell the image and 1940's engine design any more.......

Wonder what the chance would be of Yamaha ever reversing course and putting a V Max engine in it?
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post #195 of 225 Old Feb 9th, 2018, 2:48 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I have not seen the new wing. Just reading what some of you guys are saying that have. Its somewhat disappointing. I want a true 2 up bike. Comfortable front and rear. Decent HP(to me in the 150 range is fine). LOW seat height, decent slow speed handling. I do NOT care about all the latest tricks and gadgets. Basically a updated yamaha venture royale would be GREAT. With the dependability that Jap bikes are known for.

I think Yamaha had the closest chance at succeeding until some MORON put that Harley want to be engine in it. Maybe they should notice harley can't sell the image and 1940's engine design any more.......

Wonder what the chance would be of Yamaha ever reversing course and putting a V Max engine in it?
Yeah, that V-twin was a mistake alright. Kawasaki pulled a boneheaded move by not having cruise in the Concours 14. The new Wing should be a true 2 up bike Chris. It has 125 HP but a boatload of torque. The rest isn't to your specs though. I personally would like to see "luxury touring" come back. Beemer & the Wing have strayed trying to get the younger crowd involved in cycling.
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post #196 of 225 Old Feb 10th, 2018, 10:07 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I have not seen the new wing. Just reading what some of you guys are saying that have. Its somewhat disappointing. I want a true 2 up bike. Comfortable front and rear. Decent HP(to me in the 150 range is fine). LOW seat height, decent slow speed handling. I do NOT care about all the latest tricks and gadgets. Basically a updated yamaha venture royale would be GREAT. With the dependability that Jap bikes are known for.

I think Yamaha had the closest chance at succeeding until some MORON put that Harley want to be engine in it. Maybe they should notice harley can't sell the image and 1940's engine design any more.......

Wonder what the chance would be of Yamaha ever reversing course and putting a V Max engine in it?
One can hope. Of all the bikes we sat on in Cleveland, the Venture was the nicest by far, but awful low for me and the archaic engine is a deal breaker for sure. Add a modern engine and this would be a sweet ride.

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post #197 of 225 Old Feb 12th, 2018, 9:28 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Yes, its just hard to follow that marketing decision to stay with a twin....

If Harley can't sell the twin with its "lifestyle" image to boot I have a horrible time thinking anyone at Yamaha thinks they can long term. Put that V4 in it, just yearly upgrades and they had a bike that could have been sold for 10 years without major revision.

Even with all its faults including the FD issue and its obvious lack of maintenance ease I am finding myself not at all interested in getting rid of the LT. I am not buying a new bike that I don't feel is a upgrade across the board.

Voyager, I hope you had the chance to tell someone involved with Yamaha what monumental screw up that twin was. My dealer claims to have already sent it along with the cancellation of his order for two of the ventures. He told me may be forced to take them though as he is other bikes every year. its the price of keeping the dealership. His thinking was discount the $*%* out of them and get them off his floor if that's the case. His personal opinion was after this summer when the new wears off they will sit on the floor.
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post #198 of 225 Old Feb 12th, 2018, 10:11 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Yes, its just hard to follow that marketing decision to stay with a twin....

If Harley can't sell the twin with its "lifestyle" image to boot I have a horrible time thinking anyone at Yamaha thinks they can long term. Put that V4 in it, just yearly upgrades and they had a bike that could have been sold for 10 years without major revision.

Even with all its faults including the FD issue and its obvious lack of maintenance ease I am finding myself not at all interested in getting rid of the LT. I am not buying a new bike that I don't feel is a upgrade across the board.

Voyager, I hope you had the chance to tell someone involved with Yamaha what monumental screw up that twin was. My dealer claims to have already sent it along with the cancellation of his order for two of the ventures. He told me may be forced to take them though as he is other bikes every year. its the price of keeping the dealership. His thinking was discount the $*%* out of them and get them off his floor if that's the case. His personal opinion was after this summer when the new wears off they will sit on the floor.
Well, as some of you know, I am the shy sort who tends to keep my opinions to myself, but I did share my thoughts with both Yamaha and Honda.

Personally, I got the impression that they really didn't care to hear anyone's thoughts at this time. And I can't blame them. The die has been cast for at least a couple years so unless the sales really suck, nothing is going to change right away.

I think Honda will sell lots of Wings for the first couple of years. Like the K1600, you will have current Wing owners who ride mostly solo who will like the smaller and lighter bike and won't be affected by the 28% loss in luggage capacity. And they will "suck it up" on the loss in fuel capacity just to stick with Honda. However, I think by year three they will be deeply discounting them to get sales. Much like BMW has been doing now for some time, or even skipping a year on the top-of-the-line Tour model as BMW has done with the Exclusive. I could have bought an Exclusive two years ago for $4,000 below MSRP. That has to be at or below dealer cost and the dealer said he is forced to take 1600s in order to get the other models that people want to buy. He hates them.

With the Venture, I will be surprised if it ever sells well. You will get the normal first year sales and maybe some cross over Harley riders, but I will be shocked if Yamaha sells enough to cover their development costs. I still think the side scoops look tailor made for radiators. Maybe Yamaha has some sweet new liquid-cooled engine in the pipeline that just wasn't ready in time to launch against the Wing, but that is wishful thinking at its best.

Like you, I can't see paying big $ to trade for a bike that in aggregate is less capable than my LT for my mission which is two-up, long distance, luxury touring. If I were a solo rider, I would consider a K1600 or the new Wing, but more likely would save some money and buy an RT or more likely an FJR. I test rode an FJR a few years ago when they finally added cruise control and it was a sweet ride ... for one person.

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post #199 of 225 Old Feb 23rd, 2018, 7:39 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Good morning...

I've been off this forum for a while. I have a 2000 K1200LT with 65K miles. The bike is currently at the dealer for a routine service. I have been informed I need a final drive rebuild. They did the "wheel shake" test.

I'd rather speak to "Saddleman" for an opinion and have him rebuild the drive if needed.

Can anyone send me his contact information?

Thanks in advance...

Kimble Neel
Phoenix, AZ

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post #200 of 225 Old Feb 23rd, 2018, 8:40 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Good morning...

I've been off this forum for a while. I have a 2000 K1200LT with 65K miles. The bike is currently at the dealer for a routine service. I have been informed I need a final drive rebuild. They did the "wheel shake" test.

I'd rather speak to "Saddleman" for an opinion and have him rebuild the drive if needed.

Can anyone send me his contact information?

Thanks in advance...

Kimble Neel
Phoenix, AZ

[email protected]
Kimble, you can find him on post #55 on this thread ( page 2 by my browser) and send him a PM. You have enough posts so sending a PM should not be an issue.

I would want to be sure that the wheel shake was not play in the pivot bearings and actually play in the crown bearing. If it is the crown bearing with wheel shake, your FD drain plug should have a bunch of flakes and possibly larger particles on it depending on how far it has progressed into failure.

I hope you don't live far from the dealer as if that bad, they go pretty quickly from there.

Good luck

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