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brakes squeal ... help!

2K views 16 replies 13 participants last post by  bowlesj 
#1 ·
I have read all the threads on this topic and am still confused. I have been told there is nothing I can do... I've been told to put some cardboard from a cereal box on back of pads... I've been told get EBC's but they really won't help... I've been told to get new rotors...I've been told just live with it.

My bike has only 5,600 miles and I sound like a little red wagon coming to a stop. The dealer at my 6k job said there was nothing I could do.

I hate to open this can of worms again... but can we discuss it again from scratch. The bike looks great and handles like a dream but this pesky noise has got me down.

thanx.
 
#2 ·
Squeely brakes

KYchris02 said:
I have read all the threads on this topic and am still confused. I have been told there is nothing I can do... I've been told to put some cardboard from a cereal box on back of pads... I've been told get EBC's but they really won't help... I've been told to get new rotors...I've been told just live with it.

My bike has only 5,600 miles and I sound like a little red wagon coming to a stop. The dealer at my 6k job said there was nothing I could do.

I hate to open this can of worms again... but can we discuss it again from scratch. The bike looks great and handles like a dream but this pesky noise has got me down.

thanx.
Heh Chris,
Welcome to the squeely brake club. I have an 05LT and I was told to do some high speed stops when I first reported this to the mechanic at the dealership. when I did these it did help but be careful, the brakes are powerful. Mine went away at around 4,000 miles. Other than that I don't know what to tell you.

Cheers, Bill
 
#3 ·
For some reason one solution doesn't seem to fix all. EBC pads work great on my bike but as you noted others weren't helped by them. Same with the new rotors. I've also tried the 'new' pads and found them at least an improvement. You may need to try a few of our favorite fixes to find the one that works for you.
 
#4 ·
mjordans2000 said:
For some reason one solution doesn't seem to fix all. EBC pads work great on my bike but as you noted others weren't helped by them. Same with the new rotors. I've also tried the 'new' pads and found them at least an improvement. You may need to try a few of our favorite fixes to find the one that works for you.
Of all the suggested fixes to the crazy rear brake squeal problem (my rear brake can wake the dead), the only one I've tried so far is to "de-glaze" the pad by doing an aggressive stop from speed. I did that twice and the squeal went away for a couple of days. YMMV.

The squeal is back so it's time for a de-glazing session again.
 
#5 ·
I have never posted relative to this topic, but I feel it is time to add my 2 cents worth.


Every squealing disk brake I have ever dealt with on any vehicle has to do with a vibration and harmonic that is set between the caliper piston and the backing plate of the brake pad - period.

This is ALWAYS solved by proper application of brake disk "stop squeak" products. The thin film of rubbery, sticky, colorful, material isolates the 2 pieces of steel that cause that high frequency vibration that becomes a squeal.

Now, on my LT, I had a squeal when I first bought it used last year. Once I learned how the brake system works I realized that the rear brakes would get some pressure applied even though I'm strictly a front braker only. This very slight use MAY cause poor seating, contact, etc., therefore enabling the squeal to be more prominent. Since I don't need a new set of pads yet, I didn't plan on taking the caliper apart. What I did do was use the rear brake every now and then to keep everything in close contact. Just a theory, but my brakes haven't squeaked or squealed since July of last year.

Regardless, when I do put new pads on I will buy stock pads from the local dealer and I will apply Permatex brake quiet compound to the pads, and I am sure I will not have any noisy problems.

Anything else just isn't accepted brake service work. Cardboard, removing float from rotors, etc, etc.

My experience - not really an opinion - take it for what it's worth.
 
#8 ·
meese said:
Howard, don't you ride like that every day? I do. :D
Well, not really. I'm Mr. Conservative Rider. I imagine the first time I get to do a group ride with others from this site you will all be in the clubhouse saying "Anyone seen what's his name?" Don't worry. I'll be along shortly...
 
#9 ·
Howard is right. I've got 76,000 miles on my LT and have had the brakes squeal maybe 5 or 6 times. Any time it does, I go find a lonely stretch of road and do a couple aggressive stops from 60 MPH. No more squeal. Aggressive means hard braking, but not hard enough to engage the anti-lock feature.
 
#10 ·
bowlesj said:
I have never posted relative to this topic, but I feel it is time to add my 2 cents worth.

This is ALWAYS solved by proper application of brake disk "stop squeak" products. The thin film of rubbery, sticky, colorful, material isolates the 2 pieces of steel that cause that high frequency vibration that becomes a squeal.
May not want to use the word ALWAYS here The beemer has not read the book so it does not know that is is always suppose to work.
For a few it did work for a while but the squeak did come back. :) :D
 
#11 ·
Well, I don't really think the anti squeal compound "should" do much good here as there is no metal to metal contact between the caliper and the pads. Perhaps when you install the "cardboard", the pads are now hitting in a slightly different spot, eliminating the problem for awhile.

I really feel it is a brake compound\rotor material and glazing issue. I've stated this many times in the past. My 2000 rear has never squealed (EBC) but I use it frequently and make it a point to use firm pressure once in awhile.

If the hard stops don't resolve it, take a look at the rotor to check for galls. What sometimes happens is the rotors gall, roll up a piece of metal and imbeds in the pad. The piece of metal then rubs on the rotor with a scratching noise all the time. No de-glazing will last and usually you have to replace the pads and sand the rotor high spots off to resolve the issue. Just my opinion though.
 
#12 ·
psayegh said:
there is no metal to metal contact between the caliper and the pads.
Interesting. As I mentioned I haven't taken the caliper apart yet. If there isn't a steel pressure piston acting on a steel brake pad backing plate, this would be the first road going braking system I've seen with a different arrangement. This is where the squeal comes from.

Paul, what materials and design elements are used on the LT brakes?

Another post mentioned the concern of the term ALWAYS. In the past, correct disc brake servicing has prevented all brake squeal on all vehicles I've serviced. The LT remains to be seen. There can be exceptions.

Just a further note, many people are not really aware of correct brake servicing, including automotive repair shops and especially motorcycle repair shops. I won't go into a lot of detail but typically Permatex should be applied between between each mating metal surface between the brake piston and backing pad, including OEM shims. I don't even know if shims are used on the LT, not likely though. Then a "small" amount of lithium grease should be applied to mating sliding surfaces between the brake backing plate and the caliper body or springs if used. Some will apply grease too liberally, thus getting a dab on the brake surface and inducing a squeal similar to a wet brake squeal. This will glaze the disc material and possibly cause squealing. Other people are afraid to put grease anywhere near their braking system.

I know there are a lot of excellent mechanics on this site. So interesting to see what the pros know and do. I am sure there really is a solution to the noise problem. But when I read about people locking down their floating rear disk I become a little concerned over the techniques discussed hear at times.

Thanks
 
#13 ·
Thanks Paul

psayegh said:
Well, I don't really think the anti squeal compound "should" do much good here as there is no metal to metal contact between the caliper and the pads.
Hi Paul. Thanks for bringing your wisdom to this thread. I've appreciated your videos and trust your opinions.

My question:
I just looked at my old stock pads and they are just bonded to steel backing plates and painted black. There is no textured material like what's being applied to the back of some factory automotive pads (Mitsubishi and Dodge to name a couple). Therefore my stock pads are metal-to-metal with the pistons in the caliper. What is the EBC pads backed with if you are not having a metal-to-metal scenario?

I've used EBC on two other machines with adverse brake rotor wear. After reading from their web site today it appears they have fixed this problem. However, so far I'm pleased with the stock pads with CRC Brake Quiet applied to the backing plates. I've used CRC for many years, with success, both as a journeyman mechanic and enthusiast. Just my opinion of course. Click here for what has worked well for my machine.

With that said, there are no for sure guarantees even with CRC. Any noise I get is in dry weather and in stop-n-go traffic. I chalk this up to dust build up between the solid steel rotor and the pad. If I use a significant amount of soft rear brake applications I can get a squeal and cure it with a firm application. However the noise I'm speaking of is nothing like I get from stock pads without the CRC. That noise is enough to wake up the dead.:( Also, brake rotor surface integrity doesn't seem to be a question in my bikes case. I've checked for high spots, run out and rivet security. In every case the rotor is meeting tolerance.

I've attached a part of the EBC product catalog profiling their brake pads. Are you using the standard pad or the sintered? I see from their pictures they have a backing on the sintered that they claim helps to sool the pad. This is an interesting point that I might find useful on the LT for when heavy applications are in order. Your thoughts?

Thanks again for your input
 

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#14 ·
KYchris02 said:
I have read all the threads on this topic and am still confused. I have been told there is nothing I can do... I've been told to put some cardboard from a cereal box on back of pads... I've been told get EBC's but they really won't help... I've been told to get new rotors...I've been told just live with it.

My bike has only 5,600 miles and I sound like a little red wagon coming to a stop. The dealer at my 6k job said there was nothing I could do.

I hate to open this can of worms again... but can we discuss it again from scratch. The bike looks great and handles like a dream but this pesky noise has got me down.

thanx.
I don't believe you can completely stop the rear brake squel no matter what you do, but you can minimize the noise by doing some or all of the following:

1) Use EBC pads on the rear; They will provide better braking and are quieter thatn stock.
2) When they start to squeal, clean the brakes and rotor. That always helps my bike
3) Some use cardboard behind the pads. I bought some high temperature gasket paper at the Auto Parts Store.
4) Remove the anti-rattle clip, and make sure it fits snug. If not, give it a little bend. Make sure you put it back on correctly.

Again, all these things help, but none will stop all the squealing all the time.

I was at the BMW rally in Spokane Washington a couple of years ago. I was watching all the bikes come in from their journey's across the country. You could always tell an LT was coming around the corner because every one of them had the brake squeal. Some more than others, but they all had the squeal after the long ride.

It's a minor inconvenience but annoying just the same.
 
#15 ·
There is nothing wrong with CRC brake quiet compound for cars. I have a large bottle that I use on all my other vehicles. The idea for those unfamiliar with this product (and shims) is to minimize noise where the metal plate of the pads touches the metal of the piston where vibaration or harmonics are going on from a rotating rotor. The two metal objects vibrate against each other causing noise. The "goop" or shims minimize this noise by providing a little isolation there.

Now, the LT uses a metal piston and EBC uses a metal backing plate but stops there. This is not the problem here with the LT. Inside the metal piston is a non metallic spacer that sticks out further than the piston and is what actually pushes on the brake pads. No metal to metal to rub. I personally use nothing inbetween. No "goop", paper, wood, cow doo doo or other fancy stuff. Just start with a roughened rotor, good clean parts and some good metallic pads and use them often. I personally would avoid the goop or shims in this application but YMMV......
 
#16 ·
Used Rear Brake Pads, BMW old design

psayegh said:
Now, the LT uses a metal piston and EBC uses a metal backing plate but stops there. This is not the problem here with the LT. Inside the metal piston is a non metallic spacer that sticks out further than the piston and is what actually pushes on the brake pads. No metal to metal to rub. I personally use nothing inbetween. No "goop", paper, wood, cow doo doo or other fancy stuff. Just start with a roughened rotor, good clean parts and some good metallic pads and use them often. I personally would avoid the goop or shims in this application but YMMV......
Paul, I have never used goop on these non floating caliper pistons as I felt the clean up of the 4 piston surfaces, when it was time for new pads again, would be time consuming. Now that I know we have non metallic spacers, I'll let others determine is some "goop" might work. I am now running the latest BMW pads that have a film of some material on the piston side. Maybe somebody knows what the material is!!! They are not making noise to date with 4000 miles. My rotor is 0.262 thick, which is around the minimum suggested thickness. I'm getting 12K miles per pad set on the rear, and about ready to change the front for the first time with 42K. The photos are of pads that were new in Nov 03 (11,813 miles).
 

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#17 ·
psayegh said:
Now, the LT uses a metal piston and EBC uses a metal backing plate but stops there. This is not the problem here with the LT. Inside the metal piston is a non metallic spacer that sticks out further than the piston and is what actually pushes on the brake pads. No metal to metal to rub. I personally use nothing inbetween. No "goop", paper, wood, cow doo doo or other fancy stuff. Just start with a roughened rotor, good clean parts and some good metallic pads and use them often. I personally would avoid the goop or shims in this application but YMMV......
I wouldn't either! Thanks for the input Paul. Excellent information, and certainly not an application that should require more isolating material I am anxious to see this arrangement and see where else vibration could be present. That may explain why cardboard shims help in some cases. The spacer must be what the manual calls a "pressure pad". I was open to this type of a design since I haven't opened the caliper yet. Too bad the problem wasn't entirely solved by BMW.

Thanks again,
 
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