Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 21 Old Jan 8th, 2011, 6:27 pm Thread Starter
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Question Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Anyone had issues with the rest of the brake system after installing stainless brake lines?
Overheard a discussion where it was NOT recommended to install stainless lines as increased pressures generated strain other components.
The OEM rubber lines flex/expand to soak up these pressures.
Kinda makes sense or is it a Myth?

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post #2 of 21 Old Jan 8th, 2011, 6:39 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

While they are many reasons not to install steel braided lines (for me anyway...) you definitely do not want any swelling or expanding - EVER - no matter what they are made from.

The main reason for steel braided lines is protection from chafing - and of course there's the bling factor which is just irresistible to many riders. SS lines may change the feel of the brakes and increase reaction time by nano seconds - but I'm not exactly sure how they can - on their own - increase pressure to affect other components that would have a detrimental effect.

Myth!


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post #3 of 21 Old Jan 8th, 2011, 6:39 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Endless discussions on this topic- do a quick search.
The consensus was . . . no.

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post #4 of 21 Old Jan 9th, 2011, 9:33 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
While they are many reasons not to install steel braided lines (for me anyway...) you definitely do not want any swelling or expanding - EVER - no matter what they are made from.

The main reason for steel braided lines is protection from chafing - and of course there's the bling factor which is just irresistible to many riders. SS lines may change the feel of the brakes and increase reaction time by nano seconds - but I'm not exactly sure how they can - on their own - increase pressure to affect other components that would have a detrimental effect.

Myth!
+1...how does a tube increase pressure? Pressure is created by squeezing the lever. (Agreement)

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post #5 of 21 Old Jan 9th, 2011, 9:29 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Myth.

Doug, I put Spieglers in three years ago, and would do it again - but I don't have to! Love 'em.

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post #6 of 21 Old Jan 9th, 2011, 10:45 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

The OE lines would probably expand more, forcing you to pull the lever further for the same response from the bike. Line pressure determines caliper pressure and ultimately equal pressure gets equal brake response. Some would probably confuse a shorter lever pull with higher line pressure. Not true. If there is any issue with component failure after changing a line, I would think it's likely due to contamination from an improper install. If you install them, take the time to properly flush the system. Brake fluid is cheap.


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post #7 of 21 Old Jan 10th, 2011, 9:07 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

...and a little more info from www.StopTech.com - but remember these guys sell extremely expensive stainless steel lines for racing CARS, and one thing that EVERYONE forgets about SS lines is that they have more of an on/off "feel" to them - reducing the ability to modulate your brakes. On/off is great for racing since you are generally stomping on them HARD before entering a corner and where milliseconds count - but it dramatically reduces the ability to "sense" minute braking forces on the street - where a fine touch is often required - and especially for motorcycles.

I absolutely crack up when someone tells me that OEM lines expand and swell. This may have been true in the 1970's or if your lines are old and tired - but new, modern OEM lines are - for the most part - extremely durable and DO NOT SWELL unless they are subjected to extreme braking forces encountered in racing when the fluid itself gets insanely hot and can even boil.

BMW engineers specify brake lines as an integral part of each system to provide maximum overall performance. By Installing aftermarket SS lines in a bike designed in 1997 you are not going to stop any faster and they indeed may adversely affect braking performance. BMW - like any manufacturer - may be converting to SS lines in newer models, but it is due more to consumer demand for the latest bling look than anything.

What impacts will SS lines have on my vehicle's P-T (pressure vs. torque) relationship?

None. Because brake lines and hoses do not affect the torque generated at the wheel end, the P-T relationship remains unchanged when SS lines are installed. Only changes to a vehicle's caliper, rotor, or brake pad coefficient of friction will impact the P-T relationship.


Well then, will SS lines impact my vehicle's P-V (pressure vs. volume) relationship?


Absolutely. Because SS lines are much less compliant than their OEM counterparts, the P-V relationship will be reduced to some degree (less volume will be required at a given pressure). This is exactly the reason that a car equipped with SS lines has a firmer brake pedal.


However, because the P-T relationship remains unchanged with SS lines, the impact to ABS, TCS, and other brake control systems is typically negligible. Our own BBK kit testing indicates that most ABS, TCS, and other brake control systems are robust to the small changes affected by the addition of SS lines. On the other hand, testing at StopTech (and at major OEMs as well) has shown that while decreases in the P-V relationship typically are invisible to SS lines, increases in the P-V relationship are not (as would be found with an inappropriately-sized BBK).


In summary, because SS lines and a properly sized and balanced BBK only serve to reduce the P-V relationship, we have time and time again demonstrated appropriate system integration with these products. Our in-house testing allows us to make this statement for every platform we service.


Will I feel a difference on my car if I install SS lines?


The amount of perceived difference will vary by each car's individual design, age, and usage. Those cars with a significant amount of flexible OEM line or those that have seen years or use and aging will typically display a more dramatic improvement in pedal feel than new cars with shorter lines.



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post #8 of 21 Old Jan 10th, 2011, 9:43 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

I'm sure that "spongieness" is a factor in the brake design..

I'm also sure that less "spongieness" is a good thing...

Till it's not......Then you crash...
I also know that a hose shop can build you a custom hose for about a third of what you'll pay from Spiegler, etc....

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post #9 of 21 Old Jan 10th, 2011, 9:48 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
I also know that a hose shop can build you a custom hose for about a third of what you'll pay from Spiegler, etc....
+1

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post #10 of 21 Old Jan 10th, 2011, 10:21 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

The people you heard saying those things should never be trusted to do any mechanical work more complex than repairing a small porcelain walrus.

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post #11 of 21 Old Jan 10th, 2011, 12:07 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Finally a place that can fix my walrus!

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post #12 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 4:16 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougholck
Anyone had issues with the rest of the brake system after installing stainless brake lines?
Overheard a discussion where it was NOT recommended to install stainless lines as increased pressures generated strain other components.
The OEM rubber lines flex/expand to soak up these pressures.
Kinda makes sense or is it a Myth?
I installed a set of Speigler brake lines on my Beemer and I was very unhappy with them. Mechanically, the Speigler brake lines work fine, however, after less than a year of use the color had badly faded. What had once been a nice bright red set of lines faded to become the most nauseous looking faded pumpkin orange color. It is horrible.

I contacted Speigler and asked them to warranty the nauseous lines. They refused saying that they do not guarantee their brake lines against fading or nausea. After multiple complaints, Speigler agreed to give me a 10% discount on a replacement set of lines. That was the most I could get out of them.

I paid about $350 for the lines, however, it cost me over $500 to have them installed (including flushing the brake fluid and bleeding the ABS system ... all of which is required in order to install the brake lines. It cost me about $850 total to buy and install their junky lines and the best they would offer after they faded was to discount the purchase of a new set by $35. Of course, even if I had taken them up on their offer and purchased a new set of lines I would still have had to pay another $500 to have them installed.

My recommendation is that if you want to install aftermarket Speigler lines in place of your OEM lines YOU SHOULD TOTALLY AVOID THE COLORED LINES. Go with the stainless steel lines with the clear plastic cover and you should be OK. Also, you will probably be happiest if you go with the chrome colored fittings instead of the colored ones. I purchased red fittings for my nauseous orange lines and they faded in less than a year. (fortunately, the metal fittings only faded to faded red as opposed to nauseous orange so if you don't mind having faded metal fittings on your bike they may be OK for you.)

All in all, I would recommend not buying Speigler brake lines. Why would you want to buy from a company that will not honor its warranty? I was particularly offended by their offer of a mere 10% discount, rather than a 100% replacement, based on their contention that their warranty does not cover cosmetics. I mean, the primary reason that people purchase their product is for cosmetics. How could they refuse to honor warranty claims for cosmetic defects?
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post #13 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 4:24 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Many braided lines with clear plastic coating yellow and/or cloud over time.

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post #14 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 4:36 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

"I mean, the primary reason that people purchase their product is for cosmetics".

Really? Functionality is secondary???
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post #15 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 4:49 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
"I mean, the primary reason that people purchase their product is for cosmetics".

Really? Functionality is secondary???
I was wanting to say that.

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post #16 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 5:22 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

With a little patience, some masking paper, and a six dollar can of spray paint, I bet you can make those nauseating orange lines into beautiful flat black pieces of art.


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post #17 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 5:40 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
With a little patience, some masking paper, and a six dollar can of spray paint, I bet you can make those nauseating orange lines into beautiful flat black pieces of art.

Dean, your humor cracks me up. We need to share some more beers. Come for a visit to Texas.

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post #18 of 21 Old Aug 29th, 2013, 5:59 pm
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?


Brian
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post #19 of 21 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 9:14 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

If you install speigler lines and leave old oem lines, the shit oem lines will die.
Because they are so bad that if they are original they were about to go anyway like the ones you just replaced.
I replaced one rear, then my fronts went, unrelated just same age.

The original lines on the LT are the worst quality of any of the 10 bikes I have owned.
I have a 1982 honda with original lines in better shape than the 200 lt has.
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post #20 of 21 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 9:17 am
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

Spent a couple of hours replacing front lines on 2000lt
no fairings removed just 2 wrenches needed and right handlebar cover removed.
To spend $500 for that is crazy, but I will take other peoples crazy $500 for it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman90251 View Post
I installed a set of Speigler brake lines on my Beemer and I was very unhappy with them. Mechanically, the Speigler brake lines work fine, however, after less than a year of use the color had badly faded. What had once been a nice bright red set of lines faded to become the most nauseous looking faded pumpkin orange color. It is horrible.

I contacted Speigler and asked them to warranty the nauseous lines. They refused saying that they do not guarantee their brake lines against fading or nausea. After multiple complaints, Speigler agreed to give me a 10% discount on a replacement set of lines. That was the most I could get out of them.

I paid about $350 for the lines, however, it cost me over $500 to have them installed (including flushing the brake fluid and bleeding the ABS system ... all of which is required in order to install the brake lines. It cost me about $850 total to buy and install their junky lines and the best they would offer after they faded was to discount the purchase of a new set by $35. Of course, even if I had taken them up on their offer and purchased a new set of lines I would still have had to pay another $500 to have them installed.

My recommendation is that if you want to install aftermarket Speigler lines in place of your OEM lines YOU SHOULD TOTALLY AVOID THE COLORED LINES. Go with the stainless steel lines with the clear plastic cover and you should be OK. Also, you will probably be happiest if you go with the chrome colored fittings instead of the colored ones. I purchased red fittings for my nauseous orange lines and they faded in less than a year. (fortunately, the metal fittings only faded to faded red as opposed to nauseous orange so if you don't mind having faded metal fittings on your bike they may be OK for you.)

All in all, I would recommend not buying Speigler brake lines. Why would you want to buy from a company that will not honor its warranty? I was particularly offended by their offer of a mere 10% discount, rather than a 100% replacement, based on their contention that their warranty does not cover cosmetics. I mean, the primary reason that people purchase their product is for cosmetics. How could they refuse to honor warranty claims for cosmetic defects?
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post #21 of 21 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 1:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: Will stainless (Spiegler) brakelines damage other system parts?

FYI:
Replaced my 2002 lines with OEM at 96K miles.

My main concern was the impact to servo pump and ABS module which continue to preform as designed so decided not to try and improve a system that works just fine.

Thanks for replies.

Doug Holck
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