Is this a Main Seal Failure? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 25 Old Oct 4th, 2010, 3:48 pm Thread Starter
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Is this a Main Seal Failure?

I am pretty sure that I have a main seal failure on my 01 LT (94K miles). See attached photos. The clutch slips under acceleration (per passing a car) but not under my normal riding conditions - I guess I am pretty conservative.

Oil consumption is not outrageous, about a quart every 1,000 miles. But now I am getting an oil drip on the floor, dropping down from the front left bolt holding the skip plate in place.

I haven't done a clutch before but have the shop manual, Clymers, Kenny Crawford's writeup on changing the main seal and Kevin Cooke's writeup on drilling the weep hole (plus John Zeiler's video) for removing the rear end stuff, plus loads of other information from Dave Shealey, Pastor Jack, etc on this website. So I think I will be OK on the seal changeout.

Would appreciate any thoughts.
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Dan Sullivan
2011 vStrom DL650
1999 K1200LTC
Hillsborough, NJ
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post #2 of 25 Old Oct 4th, 2010, 4:28 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

It does look like it to me, but it's hard to tell. When mine started to leak, it was only a couple of drops at a time, so you'd never notice it on the oil level. Identifying the leak was easy, as there really was no other place it could have come from.
Sorry to hear it, but the job really isn't that bad. I actually enjoyed working on the bike.
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post #3 of 25 Old Oct 4th, 2010, 7:21 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

In addition to the main seal there is an o-ring on the output shaft that gets hard with age and leaks also.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
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post #4 of 25 Old Oct 4th, 2010, 11:41 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Dan...its time to dive into the belly of da beast! PM sent with links to tech files, pics, and parts listing from our 13 March Tech Session.

For what its worth.....yours looks past due for the repair! FYI....plan on ~15-24 hours of labor if you take your time and have all the parts on hand per the links I sent you. If you use the manuals and have all the right tools it should go relatively smoothly....even more so if you (or a riding buddy) are mechanically inclined.....Channing (cfell) was elbow deep with me and twelve other buddies were present when we dove into "Belle." In hindsight, it was probably the best thing I (we) could have done....I learned a tremendous amount about the bike (raised my confidence level in doing it myself) and it saved me about $1,000-$1,500 in labor!!!

Good luck!

for others who may be in the same situation, here are the links for your quick reference:

Here's the link to the 13 March Tech Session

Here is a link to all the pics I stored on Picassa ....

here is the link to the complete parts listing with images from the fische.

and here is a price comparison for the parts you may consider purchasing.


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post #5 of 25 Old Oct 5th, 2010, 6:06 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
In addition to the main seal there is an o-ring on the output shaft that gets hard with age and leaks also.
The O-Ring will contaminate the clutch long before the main seal due to its location. Main seal is behind the clutch pressure plate housing and the O-ring is around the output shaft so when it leaks the oil runs right onto the clutch plate.

Roy

Roy Gregersen

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post #6 of 25 Old Oct 7th, 2010, 12:17 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Hmmm. Those pics up there look disturbingly familiar. Disturbingly.
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post #7 of 25 Old Oct 7th, 2010, 8:15 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

100 % YES.... The Oring is the problem, Be sure to replace with a Viton Oring..

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #8 of 25 Old Oct 7th, 2010, 7:52 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

UPDATE

Thanks to all who responded on this thread. Wanted to update everybody.

Put the LT up on the lift, and after three days got it "stripped" down to the clutch.

(1) Found oil in the swing arm which I conclude is from a leaking pinion seal (since there was no oil close to the transmission end of the swing arm). So I plan to replace that seal.

(2) Found fluid in the slave cylinder chamber. I assume this is a leaking slave cylinder, so I plan to replace that. Drilled the weep hole. Will replace the oil seal here as well.

(3) Found oil in the intermediate housing, so I will replace the main seal and o-ring. And of course the clutch.

(4) QUESTION - Both seals on the transmission (front and rear drive) were bone dry. Dare I NOT replace them (bike is an 01LT with 94K)?

I included pictures below for each of the areas addressed above. Hope they come through.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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Dan Sullivan
2011 vStrom DL650
1999 K1200LTC
Hillsborough, NJ
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post #9 of 25 Old Oct 7th, 2010, 8:14 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Dan,
In response to Q4.....I would recommend you go ahead and do the seals (for ~$30 total)....you're already there and it will give you the higher degree of confidence your seals are good when you put Humpty back together again! Then again, if you know your oil is good in your tranny and there's no indication of leaks, you may go for quite a while longer. I know if I ever venture into the bowels of the bike again, I do plan on doing the tranny and FD just to make sure its all good to go.

Good luck and great job taking the plunge......make sure you take the hex nut (#8 in the pic)



it holds your clutch in place.....wire it up to the back of the bike next to your mini-good luck bell to show you've been there and done that! Its a boastful thing and creates better conversation than those sacks hangin' from some folks' pickup trucks!
Kenny


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BlauBeeMr
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post #10 of 25 Old Oct 7th, 2010, 9:51 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Was it as bad as you thought? The work I mean.
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post #11 of 25 Old Oct 7th, 2010, 10:54 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

For me? I thought it was worth every minute....er hour....all 17 of 'em that it took to do the job and put it back together during our tech session.

13 March Tech Session

Products from the session

Tech sessions are a great way to go....you learn a lot, make some new riding friends, and get to know your bike very well.....strongly recommend them if you do all the right homework and have the parts ahead of time.


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Later,
BlauBeeMr
1999 Basalt Grau K1200LT

2004 Desert Tan M2A3 (Jul 2005 - Apr 2008)

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post #12 of 25 Old Oct 8th, 2010, 8:37 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlauBeeMr
Dan,
In response to Q4.....I would recommend you go ahead and do the seals (for ~$30 total)....you're already there and it will give you the higher degree of confidence your seals are good when you put Humpty back together again!
Kenny

+ 1--your replacing everything else...what's two more seals? Great job by the way.

Wade
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post #13 of 25 Old Oct 8th, 2010, 9:20 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

You may as well drill the weep hole in the bell housing while you're in there.

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post #14 of 25 Old Oct 8th, 2010, 6:11 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

+1 on the seals as the brake fluid will destroy the rear input shaft seal. Best to have fresh.


I would not bother with the FD pinion seal as it is a bear to do. Need a special tool to get the sealing ring out and the nut is a 36 mm and on with 200 Nm of torque. Then the ring has to go back in with some special sealant.

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #15 of 25 Old Oct 26th, 2010, 6:43 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Wanted to update everybody on my 01LT disassembly for replacement of the main seal and rebuild of the cylinder head.

See photos at http://picasaweb.google.com/sully2028/01LTDisassembly#

Am awaiting parts from Chicago BMW; should be here this week. Then the reassembly starts. I have my mechanic (of 15 years) helping in replacement of some of the seals.

Dan Sullivan
2011 vStrom DL650
1999 K1200LTC
Hillsborough, NJ
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post #16 of 25 Old Oct 26th, 2010, 10:12 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Great pictures Dan. The hone marks in the cylinders was done at the factory prior to the application of the NaciSil (sp) coating. It will never wear out, just the rings. Did you find any fractured ring lands on the piston? The last one I tore down had them on all four pistons only one of them got so bad it took out the coating in the cylinder wall.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #17 of 25 Old Oct 27th, 2010, 2:19 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Sully2028, can you do me a favour, I have the 'bash plate' for the underside and can see where it fits to the oil sump, can you tell me where it fits on the rear, picture would be good
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post #18 of 25 Old Oct 28th, 2010, 5:55 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Sully , change that dam input seal on the trans please,, because..

Why did you have to pull the head if power and mpg was good? Did I miss something ,Was it a smoker ?
I have the input seal install tool , you are welcome to it

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #19 of 25 Old Oct 29th, 2010, 2:49 am Thread Starter
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
Sully , change that dam input seal on the trans please,, because..

Why did you have to pull the head if power and mpg was good? Did I miss something ,Was it a smoker ?
I have the input seal install tool , you are welcome to it
Pete,
Will do! I have a high regard for your opinion. But pray tell, why is the tranny input seal changeout so important.

Guess I should also do the tranny output seal as well. That would complete all seal replacements, as recommended by Shealey and so many others on this site. Do u agree that is important?

I pulled the head because of oil being puffed out the exhaust and low compression in cylinder #2. Normally, I would have just lived with the oil consumption as it was within normal usage (1 quart per 1000 miles). But I figured since I was in there with the clutch, might as well do everything. Am getting some kind of blowby on cylinder #2 as well (see pictures of throttle body and piston) so I am replacing the intake and exhaust valve stem seals. Sixteen in total.

Am contemplating a replacement of the pistons, since these have 94K on them. I have a set of four from a wrecked 01 LT that had only 9K miles. But I am unsure about replacing all four since I have good compression (measured 195 psi) on three of them. Maybe I should only replace the piston in cylinder #2.

Thanks again!
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Dan Sullivan
2011 vStrom DL650
1999 K1200LTC
Hillsborough, NJ

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post #20 of 25 Old Oct 29th, 2010, 5:42 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Oil in #2 TB seems to be the norm from what I have seen onseveral bikes. The rings are the wear item so as long as the ring lands are not cracked just install new rings all around. Look really good as the last one I tore down had cracks on all four pistons on the second ring lands. Cylinder walls should still look brand new.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #21 of 25 Old Oct 30th, 2010, 2:39 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Sully
I hate to pop your bubble BUT there is no need to pull the head to replace the seals. Just pull all 4 plugs, put air fitting into appropriate cylinder and connect airhose to it. If it blows out constant disconnect airhose, rotate crankshaft 360 degrees and connect airhose. Then pull valve springs and replace the valve seals. Replace valve springs and on to another.
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post #22 of 25 Old Oct 30th, 2010, 4:22 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dbweldor
Sully
I hate to pop your bubble BUT there is no need to pull the head to replace the seals. Just pull all 4 plugs, put air fitting into appropriate cylinder and connect airhose to it. If it blows out constant disconnect airhose, rotate crankshaft 360 degrees and connect airhose. Then pull valve springs and replace the valve seals. Replace valve springs and on to another.
If he didn't pull the head how else could he have removed the # 2 piston?. I would prefer to change seals on the work bench so I could also check for valve guide wear. I have done it both ways but if I have to remove the head anyway .

Dave Selvig
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post #23 of 25 Old Nov 11th, 2010, 5:32 pm
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Hey Dan just wondering how the engine work is going

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post #24 of 25 Old Nov 11th, 2010, 9:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
Hey Dan just wondering how the engine work is going
Hey Dave
Thanks for askiing. The engine work is going well. The engine, cylinder head, transmission, and final drive are all with my mechanic. He was in the hospital having a stent put in his neck artery, and now back to work. Amazing what they can do nowadays, medically, and have you back on your feet in no time. I just dropped off the engine with him this past Tuesday.

I asked the mechanic to do some work that I felt was a little beyond my backyard mechanic's ability. He is replacing the seal in the final drive, which John Zeiler says is a bear to replace. Having him replace the three seals in the transmission as well (more to give him some work since he is helping so much with the rest of the bike). He will ckean up the cylinder head, regrind the valves if needed, and put valve stem seals on all intake and exhaust valves. And he will replace the piston rings (thus I had to bring him the engine) with a set of used rings I got from an eBay bike, an 01LT with 9900 miles on it (my 01 has 94K on it). He may replace the pistons as well, as I have the piston set from the wrecked eBay LT.

I've attached two pictures of the bike, fully disassembled.

Anyway I expect he will take about a week or so to complete that work. Then I will begin reassembly in my garage. Will take lots of pictures and post them. Meanwhile my gal has us laying hardwood flooring in the upstairs bedroom and hallway and replacing the oak treads on the stairway.

Always something to do! Glad I have two other bikes to ride!
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Dan Sullivan
2011 vStrom DL650
1999 K1200LTC
Hillsborough, NJ

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post #25 of 25 Old Nov 14th, 2010, 9:30 am
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Re: Is this a Main Seal Failure?

Sully208,

I couldn't help but notice no one commented on the heavy rust on some of those fasteners in the photos. Did the rust add to the difficulty and did any of those things strip or break?
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