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post #1 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 1:27 pm Thread Starter
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Still Smoking After Center Stand

Hi all,

I know about the horizontal engine, valves and the side stand creating smoke. When I refuel, I wait while I "disrobe" and then set it on the side stand. Never smokes, but refueling takes only a few minutes. When stopping somewhere else (shopping or whatever), I usually use the center stand and after a long time (hours even) no smoke.

When I park at the house, I always park on the centerstand.

I still (and have for some time) get smoke after extended (overnight) stays. Not 100% of the time, but, often enough to make me wonder what is going on. I don't lose enough oil to worry about, but, I hate the smoke.

Could it be valve seals or seats? I am due for a valve check so I'll be getting in there anyway.

2005LT 77K on her.

Thanks,

Joe

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post #2 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 4:32 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

You could be overfull on oil.
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post #3 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 5:07 pm
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Unhappy Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

This may be my problem. I just did an oil change and I always park on my center stand.

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post #4 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 6:52 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

yep halfway up the site glass on the centre stand motor off is about right, there is a little dot in the middle I keep mine there and dont get a lot of side stand smoke either

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post #5 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 7:11 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Thanks for the suggestions.

I thought my oil could be a little high, but, it is at the bottom of the sight glass after sitting overnight. I've got a slight oil leak (unrelated), so I'm watching it a little closer than normal.

One thing that occurred to me is I believe I used 5W30 oil this time. I think I usually use 10W30. A little lighter weight oil when cold??

I guess it is tolerable, but, I am hoping I'll find something.

THanks,

Joe

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post #6 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 7:39 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

my oil is 15w50 but ambient temp here never falls below 8deg - C 46F good luck hope you sort it out

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post #7 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 7:42 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Had a BMW mech tell me the smoke is leftover from aircraft engines (the old radials were 'primed' with oil). He was probly kidding, but it helps keep the mosquito population down.

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post #8 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 7:54 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Unless it is actually using an unusual amount of oil, I wouldn't worry about it.

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post #9 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 9:02 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

I'm thinking it has more to do with where the engine stops when you shut it off more than anything else. Piston location verses open valves. Sometimes mine doesn't smoke at all & sometimes it smokes for couple of miles. In fact a few people that have followed me from work have asked me if my bike is a two stroke because it smokes so bad sometimes.

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post #10 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 9:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
I'm thinking it has more to do with where the engine stops when you shut it off more than anything else. Piston location verses open valves. Sometimes mine doesn't smoke at all & sometimes it smokes for couple of miles. In fact a few people that have followed me from work have asked me if my bike is a two stroke because it smokes so bad sometimes.
You're probably right, but it does seem time related. I can't recall ever having it smoke after putting her on the center stand at a store or restaurant. Overnight seems 50/50.

Maybe a neighbor is spraying oil in the exhaust pipe to "mess with me"

Can't wait til mosquito season.

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post #11 of 32 Old Sep 15th, 2010, 9:44 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Interesting, and I'm not trying to start any new oil thread. But.... I have right at 40K on my 07 and switched from BMW mineral 20-50W to syn Mobil 1 15-50W this year (two oil changes) 9K and never noticed it before.

It is not all the time and while I think it's more of a side stand issue when you either lay it over on the side stand right after switching off, or hit the starter while on the side stand or right after getting it upright? I have never seen smoke when refueling so my guess is it's more related to all the stuff posted here. That said I don't recall it before switching to syn oil? Maybe it has something to do with a few miles, but I hear this motor is the most bullet proof part of the K bikes.
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post #12 of 32 Old Sep 16th, 2010, 2:11 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

I have an '05 LT, 35K on odo, bought used about a month ago. Never had the problem, but from what I read here, I don't think your on the right track. The oil's in the crankcase, it would have to work it's way pass the rings to get into the combustion chamber. The valve openings have nothing to do with it unless the seals are bad.
I'm completely new to the K engine so I might be missing something.
Still an interesting topic though.

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post #13 of 32 Old Sep 16th, 2010, 6:38 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatnickfly
I have an '05 LT, 35K on odo, bought used about a month ago. Never had the problem, but from what I read here, I don't think your on the right track. The oil's in the crankcase, it would have to work it's way pass the rings to get into the combustion chamber. The valve openings have nothing to do with it unless the seals are bad.
I'm completely new to the K engine so I might be missing something.
Still an interesting topic though.
Yes, the oil settles to the crankcase, but on the way down to the crankcase it passes by the cylinders and a little will puddle behind the pistons if the bike is placed on the side stand while the oil is still draining down. This oil will then seep past the rings and into the combustion chamber causing smoke at next startup. It isn't a lot of oil that seeps by, but it doesn't take much oil to make a fair bit of smoke.

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post #14 of 32 Old Sep 16th, 2010, 10:55 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Yes, the oil settles to the crankcase, but on the way down to the crankcase it passes by the cylinders and a little will puddle behind the pistons if the bike is placed on the side stand while the oil is still draining down. This oil will then seep past the rings and into the combustion chamber causing smoke at next startup. It isn't a lot of oil that seeps by, but it doesn't take much oil to make a fair bit of smoke.
Yes, I'm sure this is what's happening. The rings are only a mechanical seal & they will leak a small amount of oil over time which has to be burned on next startup. A little bit of oil can create a lot of smoke. Don't loose any sleep over it - but it is a little embarrassing at times.
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post #15 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 8:01 am Thread Starter
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

I was thinking last night, it could be my fault (I guess my SO has me trained to think that way ).

Coming into the neighborhood to my home, I take 2 hard lefts and I usually scrape on the first one and take the second one leaned over as well. Maybe I shift enough oil to the valve cover and it doesn't drain back.

Just a theory.

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post #16 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 11:13 am
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

After stopping your engine, lean it to the right for about 30 seconds before parking it. No more smoke.


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post #17 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 11:51 am
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
I was thinking last night, it could be my fault (I guess my SO has me trained to think that way ).

.
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post #18 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 11:59 am
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Hi Joe,

Your bike is just barely broke in! But I know the smokin' can be a bit unnerving. Mine has been smokin' since I got her new in '02. Now she has a few more miles on her and she is not smokin' any worse coming off the side stand as when she was new. She does use a little more oil though. I got back from a 7k trip last month and she used a whoppin' 33oz of oil. I use 20w50 ****** that meets the specs in the manual for API classification SG (disclaimer: I am a dealer buying for myself and friends). This link explains well what has been a well known issue with the flyin' brick.

Having said all this what is your oil consumption rate? Does your machine use more in local stop/go traffic than in highway riding? This is common for people to use more oil on short jaunts that require more engine starts. Have you ever over-heated the engine? A lot of nasty things happen when an engine over heats; oil is degraded and rings take a beating as well as valve stem seals.

The best indicator (IMHO) is that the oil smoke on start-up is not a problem unless the oil cunsumption is extreeme. Keep your eye on the real issue and don't let the smoke bother you.

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post #19 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 1:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Thanks,

I haven't had a real problem with oil consumption. I have never added between changes. It is low at changes, but, still OK.

Maybe my bike has some "Harley Envy"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieA
Hi Joe,

Your bike is just barely broke in! But I know the smokin' can be a bit unnerving. Mine has been smokin' since I got her new in '02. Now she has a few more miles on her and she is not smokin' any worse coming off the side stand as when she was new. She does use a little more oil though. I got back from a 7k trip last month and she used a whoppin' 33oz of oil. I use 20w50 ****** that meets the specs in the manual for API classification SG (disclaimer: I am a dealer buying for myself and friends). This link explains well what has been a well known issue with the flyin' brick.

Having said all this what is your oil consumption rate? Does your machine use more in local stop/go traffic than in highway riding? This is common for people to use more oil on short jaunts that require more engine starts. Have you ever over-heated the engine? A lot of nasty things happen when an engine over heats; oil is degraded and rings take a beating as well as valve stem seals.

The best indicator (IMHO) is that the oil smoke on start-up is not a problem unless the oil cunsumption is extreeme. Keep your eye on the real issue and don't let the smoke bother you.

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post #20 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 6:48 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
I was thinking last night, it could be my fault (I guess my SO has me trained to think that way ).

Coming into the neighborhood to my home, I take 2 hard lefts and I usually scrape on the first one and take the second one leaned over as well. Maybe I shift enough oil to the valve cover and it doesn't drain back.

Just a theory.
It isn't your fault, but I won't tell your SO that.

Your theory is incorrect. During a turn the acceleration vector is still pointing straight down through the vertical plane of the bike (not the vertical with respect to the earth) and thus the oil doesn't even know that your are turning. The only will only move to one side of the bike or the other if you lean it while it is standing still.

This is the same reason that a glass of water on an airplane doesn't spill out the side of the glass during a coordinated turn.

The fault for this lies with BMW. They should have placed the crank on the same side as the side stand so the the oil drained out of rather than into the cylinders when on the side stand. Simply a dumb design by BMW.

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post #21 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 7:40 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager

The fault for this lies with BMW. They should have placed the crank on the same side as the side stand so the the oil drained out of rather than into the cylinders when on the side stand. Simply a dumb design by BMW.
You are correct as far as side stand side of the crank. With Joe the side stand isn't an issue. He rides up on his lift & puts his bike on the center stand without using the side stand. Mine is an 2004 so I have to put the side stand down long enough to dismount & put the bike up on the center stand. Even then his bike & mine sometimes smoke at start up. Piston rings rotate around the piston as the engine runs. Every now & then when you shut the engine off the ring gap will end up on the down side of the piston letting more oil into the combustion chamber than normal.

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post #22 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 8:30 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Ummmm, yes - I AM INDEED repeating myself but it appears as usual that all of the newbs are going to speculate that the flying brick is a pos - and that BMW engineers are morons:

"After stopping your engine, lean it to the right for about 30 seconds before parking it. No more smoke."

If ANY of your engines are "using" oil they have been totally neglected. This is hands down one of the best and most dependable engines EVER made by anyone in the known history of the universe. Except for the warp drive engines on Star Trek. But just try and find dilithium crystals at a good price these days.

End of story.


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post #23 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 8:36 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Ummmm, yes - I AM INDEED repeating myself but it appears as usual that all of the newbs are going to speculate that the flying brick is a pos - and that BMW engineers are morons:

"After stopping your engine, lean it to the right for about 30 seconds before parking it. No more smoke."

If ANY of your engines are "using" oil they have been totally neglected. This is hands down one of the best and most dependable engines EVER made by anyone in the known history of the universe. Except for the warp drive engines on Star Trek. But just try and find dilithium crystals at a good price these days.

End of story.
Well, I am hardly a newb and I didn't claim the brick was a POS, but I did claim and DO claim that putting the crank opposite the side stand was a dumb choice. The engine would function just as well oriented the other way and there is no problem mirror imaging the drive train. A drive shaft works just fine on the left as well as the right as does a header and muffler.

I have no idea why BMW chose the crank vs. cylinder orientation they chose, but I say it was a dumb choice for a bike with a left-side side stand. I see they fixed the problem nicely in the next generation K engines.

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post #24 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 8:40 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

I have an 02 and I have never had it smoke on start up. I do wait 10 seconds or so after deploying the sidestand to stop the engine before leaning it over on the sidestand.
Just lucky I guess.

John

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post #25 of 32 Old Sep 17th, 2010, 11:59 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Well, I am hardly a newb and I didn't claim the brick was a POS, but I did claim and DO claim that putting the crank opposite the side stand was a dumb choice. The engine would function just as well oriented the other way and there is no problem mirror imaging the drive train. A drive shaft works just fine on the left as well as the right as does a header and muffler.

I have no idea why BMW chose the crank vs. cylinder orientation they chose, but I say it was a dumb choice for a bike with a left-side side stand. I see they fixed the problem nicely in the next generation K engines.
if you oriented it the way you discribe it would change the torque dynamics of the machine and not for the better
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post #26 of 32 Old Sep 18th, 2010, 10:30 am
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

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Originally Posted by x101bigfoot
if you oriented it the way you discribe it would change the torque dynamics of the machine and not for the better
Interesting observation....

If there's ONE thing I've noticed about BMW engineering - and this goes all the back to my 1979 R80, 1987 535i and 2002 LT(s) as well: there is ALWAYS a reason for the way they do things. In retrospective, it may not always have been the brightest idea, but it is only usually shown wrong once the production models have been out for a long time.

The one thing about the flying brick that amazes me is how many posts on this forum over the years have a specific engine - or tranny - complaint? (that wasn't due to gross neglect.)

I've never looked but I can't think of even ONE. That's truly remarkable.


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post #27 of 32 Old Sep 18th, 2010, 2:12 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Using any anti-freeze by chance? Is the smoke blue or white? Could be a little head gasket seepage. Look in your anti-freeze reservoir with a good bright light. If you see rusty brown floaters in the mix, it's one sign the head is leaking a little. Let her idle until the fans kick on and look to see if there are bubbles coming into the reservoir. If there are bubbles, it's time for a repair.
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post #28 of 32 Old Sep 19th, 2010, 1:12 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by x101bigfoot
if you oriented it the way you discribe it would change the torque dynamics of the machine and not for the better
Really? Please explain. I am talking about rotating the engine 180 degrees around its longitudinal axis. Same direction of engine rotation and thus same direction of torque reaction. Please explain the "torque dynamics" that change.

Don't be afraid to use advanced mathematics or physics as I'm reasonably fluent in both.

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post #29 of 32 Old Sep 19th, 2010, 1:19 pm
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Interesting observation....

If there's ONE thing I've noticed about BMW engineering - and this goes all the back to my 1979 R80, 1987 535i and 2002 LT(s) as well: there is ALWAYS a reason for the way they do things. In retrospective, it may not always have been the brightest idea, but it is only usually shown wrong once the production models have been out for a long time.

The one thing about the flying brick that amazes me is how many posts on this forum over the years have a specific engine - or tranny - complaint? (that wasn't due to gross neglect.)

I've never looked but I can't think of even ONE. That's truly remarkable.
I guess it depends on how you define this. If you mean only internal engine and tranny components, then I mostly agree with you.

However, I consider things like seals, clutches, slave cylinders and shift linkages to be integral parts of the engine and transmission. The number of complaints here about leaking crank seals, transmission seals, clutch slave cylinders, broken shift linkages, etc., are legion. Have you missed all of those?

I participated for many years in the AVA's forum (I owned a 1987 Kaw Voyager XII for 17 years) and that model had FAR fewer serious issues than does the LT. I can only remember a couple that occurred on a regular basis: electric fuel pump contacts and defective ignition igniter that could cause the engine to kick back while starting and break the starter chain. I believe both of these were addressed early on my Kawasaki and I am not aware of a single serious defect that affected a large number of Voyagers. I wish I could say the same about my LT.

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post #30 of 32 Old Sep 19th, 2010, 10:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Hey Ron,

Since mine is an 05 and like Dave mentioned I pull onto my lift "upright" (well hopefully) and push the button and I'm up on my centerstand.

Are you suggesting that before I put her on the center stand, I lean her right, then put her up?

Is it then coincidental that it only happens after sitting overnight?

Just curious?

Thanks,

Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Ummmm, yes - I AM INDEED repeating myself but it appears as usual that all of the newbs are going to speculate that the flying brick is a pos - and that BMW engineers are morons:

"After stopping your engine, lean it to the right for about 30 seconds before parking it. No more smoke."

If ANY of your engines are "using" oil they have been totally neglected. This is hands down one of the best and most dependable engines EVER made by anyone in the known history of the universe. Except for the warp drive engines on Star Trek. But just try and find dilithium crystals at a good price these days.

End of story.

2005 KLT "Old Blue"

Bruno the "Bugg"


Democracy will only exist until 51% of the population believes they can live off the other 49% .
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post #31 of 32 Old Sep 19th, 2010, 10:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

Hey Dean,

Don't know the answer, I'll check when I'm home. I'll be a little pissed if your right.

Don't want to just focus on the "normal" stuff.

Thanks,

Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
Using any anti-freeze by chance? Is the smoke blue or white? Could be a little head gasket seepage. Look in your anti-freeze reservoir with a good bright light. If you see rusty brown floaters in the mix, it's one sign the head is leaking a little. Let her idle until the fans kick on and look to see if there are bubbles coming into the reservoir. If there are bubbles, it's time for a repair.

2005 KLT "Old Blue"

Bruno the "Bugg"


Democracy will only exist until 51% of the population believes they can live off the other 49% .
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post #32 of 32 Old Sep 23rd, 2010, 11:28 am
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Re: Still Smoking After Center Stand

In addition to all the responses, especially over-filling, I too experienced the burning... However, what made a big change for me is when I switched over to A.M.S.O.I.L Synthetic 20W-50.

In researching the forum, many riders have experienced different results... Mine have been positive.

I've have a 2000 LT-C (Milage: 77471). When I swapped 2 years ago, I was heading out to the CCR being held in Utah at that time. Parking outside the hotel, I'd expect the usual, smoking in the morning, but that wasn't the case. In fact, it almost seemed it stop smoking, alot more than using the standard BMW oil.

Now thats not to say it hasn't smoked a small amount, especially when parking in a somewhat downhill position, but it has been alot alot less.

MPG, don't know that its changed that, but It has made things sound smoother.
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