Eye opening service visit - BMW Luxury Touring Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 11:52 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
pozo_izquierdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hyvinkää, , Finland
Posts: 1,583
Eye opening service visit

I had an opportunity to visit a a German BMW-specialist Matthias Krist who serviced my bike in mid May 2010.
This was the most useful day in my entire life as far as BMW bikes and their service are concerned.

If you have time, read the story and look at the pics here:

http://picasaweb.google.fi/pozoizqui...VESERVICEVISIT#

Regards

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

Hyvinkää, Finland
2004 ('05) LT, Dark Graphite, "Sunset Cruiser II"

Bike trip from Finland to USA:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Pictures of various farkle projects:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pozo_izquierdo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Senior Member
 
dglenn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Diego (Rancho Bernardo), CA, USA
Posts: 493
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks for writing that up and sharing. I'm headed down to the garage to continue my re-assembly and I've now got a few new things to check.
Some great insights in there.
Thank you,

Dan
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
; Nolan 103 Helmet w/Bluetooth;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Secures gear/luggage);
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
; Droid X (Replaces
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and factory radio);
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Not installed);
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Currently unistalled),
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
; Clymer Manual; BMW Service DVD
dglenn1 is offline  
post #3 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 5:31 pm
Senior Member
 
jhsonderb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 507
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari... thanks for sharing your experience. I'm left with the impression that I should continue using only BMW OEM maintenance parts, filters, etc. despite the somewhat higher cost. Are you of that opinion now also?

Thanks again for sharing (all of) your insight.

Jim S.
'07 SturmGrau K1200LT

“Not all those who wander are lost.”


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jhsonderb is offline  
 
post #4 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 5:48 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,273
Re: Eye opening service visit

Sounds like the education was well worth the 920 euros Ari and the bike feels better too. Just another good reason to stick with OEM filters. Now I wish I had replaced that breather hose when I did my clutch job. Thanks for sharing.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #5 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 5:50 pm
Junior Member
 
BOHICA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Posts: 25
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari,
Great info! Thanks for sharing!
BOHICA is offline  
post #6 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 6:01 pm
Senior Member
 
Palerider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Big Piney, Wyoming, USA
Posts: 1,745
Re: Eye opening service visit

BOHICA.............

Love the Avatar............(bend over...................)
Palerider is offline  
post #7 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Miles of Smiles
 
Hilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Touring Europe
Posts: 1,040
Garage
Smile Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks Ari, some very important lessons here. Sounds like Matthias really knows his stuff.
Interesting insights about OEM parts too. Nothing beats doing the job 100%.
Glad he found the low oil for you and also the reason behind it.
I'll make sure to include a visit during our EU wanderings.
Enjoy the Treffen, and a big hi to Irja.
Cheers R & H

Jenna: Ocean Blue '06
Hilton: Head of the Steering Committee.
Rena: The Committee.
ET4 Thing 1
ET4 Thing 2
Hilton is offline  
post #8 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 6:30 pm
Senior Member
 
DanDiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posts: 4,840
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari, as usual, an Excellent post with great pictures. Several good lessons for those who still look for the cheapest fix. Thanks for sharing the great pictures. How did you'all ever get your bike dissembled with all of your extra wires and options?

Dano
Tampa, Fl.

12 K1600 GTL
02 K1200 LT (gone but not forgotten)
DanDiver is offline  
post #9 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 6:35 pm
Senior Member
 
Defaoite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: , Louth, Ireland
Posts: 113
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks Ari for a great write up, very educational.

Sláinte
Derek

May you be in Heaven half an hour before the Devil knows your dead
Defaoite is offline  
post #10 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 7:42 pm
Senior Member
 
wrmoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Glasco, Ks, USA
Posts: 929
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks Ari, the pics and the sharing of the wisdom learned from this mechanic is priceless, especially for all of us who try to do our own service.

Wade
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


99 K-1200LT
82 Yamaha Virago (Girl of my youth)

"No one knows as much as all of us do." --General George Patton



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wrmoss is offline  
post #11 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 9:30 pm
Senior Member
 
haughty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Spring, Tx, USA
Posts: 910
Re: Eye opening service visit

yes great write-up. Most shade tree mechanics would have never figured out (or even noticed- and this is not a put down- as engineers/ mechanics/techs from other specialties.. you get the drift...Experience talking there- and that information is INVALUABLE)some of these Items the Tech brought up..

Nice to know we all learn something new if open to the information.
I did.

Don't be afraid to say what you feel, as those that matter DOnt mind and those that mind Dont matter.
Dr.Suess-
-


1980 YAMAHA XJ650 MAXIM (RIP)
1982 YAMAHA 750 VIRAGO (SHES GONE)
1982 SUZUKI GS1000 (GONE)
2001 BMW K1200LT
2004 BMW R 1150 RT Sold.....
2007 BMW R 1200 GS
1986 BMW K100RT WITH A FLEXIT SIDECAR
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1985 BMW K100 RT ( parts bike, but its too nice to do that, so it runs)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
haughty is offline  
post #12 of 51 Old May 29th, 2010, 11:48 pm
Senior Member
 
shoswell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nashville, TN, United States
Posts: 1,425
Garage
Re: Eye opening service visit

Make sure to tell Matthias next time you talk to him, that he may be able to make a cross country (US) trip. I for one would LOVE to have him look up Barbara's skirt! She likes the way I do it, but hates the cold clammy hands of the stealer...Matthias, I have a feeling would make her feel warm and fuzzy all over again!!

Hoss
'Stupidity has a knack of getting its way.' --Albert Camus
'05- K1200LT - Gretchen
R.I.P. - '00- K1200LTE- "Barbara" - Retired at 168K 9/2011
MOA, IBA, EXR & RCB and TMI
shoswell is offline  
post #13 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 12:44 am
Super Moderator
 
dfinazzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waconia, MN, USA
Posts: 1,362
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari,

I had a incident somewhat related - took a friends bike apart who was complaining about poor idling conditions. When we got to the injector rubber boots found that the "factory installer" pinched and folded the boot improperly under the hose clamps. It took several years but the rubber materials fatigued, cracked and finally started leaking. 2 of the 4 boots - from air box to top of the injectors were wrong!!! I can't remember if we took pictures but I do know he took the parts back to the dealer to show them . . . never heard anymore!

Looks like I need to schedule a tear down on mine maybe in the winter to 2010 to look around and perform some "preventative" maintenance.... thanks for the inspiring post as always!!

Dan Finazzo
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted to get"
dfinazzo is offline  
post #14 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 6:47 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks Ari, very interesting, especially regarding the oil and air filters.

I use OEM stuff on the LT but installed a K&N on my R1200C. I wonder if I should revert back to standard.

Will be interesting to hear your opinion regarding the BRISK plugs.

With (out) your permission, I have published the link on our LT ( www.bmw-lt.com ) site.

Last edited by simoncharles; May 30th, 2010 at 7:35 am.
simoncharles is offline  
post #15 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 8:11 am
Senior Member
 
Wolfgang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 2,269
Re: Eye opening service visit

Glad to read that I am not the only one that thinks the K&N filters should have gone away when carburetors did. My experiences are from the automotive side, but a fuel injected bike uses the same technology.

As far as aftermarket VS OEM goes there are the aftermarket products that fit but were not designed for the application, there are knock-off's,Than there are the same parts, by the same manufacturer sold thru different channels. The last category are companies that actually improve on known short-comings of OEM parts and often make a better part for less money. With some careful research you can get bargains, without sacrificing quality. I'll stay away from the first two categories.

Wolfgang

K1200LT 1999 Champaign SOLD
R1100RS 1994 Teal SOLD
R1150RT 2003 Blue (Sold)
R1100RT 1997 Blue


Pest, Budapest Hungary

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness."
Mark Twain

Wolfgang is offline  
post #16 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 9:39 am
Senior Member
 
CharlieVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Deep South of Vermont
Posts: 4,395
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari,
A very informative post,
Thank you.
CharlieVT is offline  
post #17 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 9:44 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Myrtle Beach SC, SC, USA
Posts: 2,192
Re: Eye opening service visit

Excellent post Ari, thanks for your ongoing contributions. the only part that raised my eyebrow was the implication that BMW did not design for synthetic oil. At least in the early 2000's BMW required their motorcycle dealers to carry their own branded BMW synthetic and the dealers recommended their use as of 12,000 miles. As I have not had much dealings with the dealers since then I would be interested to know if they are still selling the BMW labeled synthetic and what the dealers are told to recommend. I of course have over 180,000 on my '99 using synthetic, (several brands over the years), and continue to use no oil between changes, (5,000 miles) and gas mileage has been consistant since new at 45 mpg. It may be, as in many parts of my life, that ignorance is bliss

Jeff in Myrtle Beach
'01 LTC
'99 Icon champagne
'02 KLR 650
TZ 185 2 stroke
Honda R100R beater

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jeffklt is offline  
post #18 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 10:33 pm
Senior Member
 
Lee510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Newton, NC, USA
Posts: 2,310
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari,
Thanks for a great group of pictures and write up. Did Mathias say what the white marks on your number 2 spark plug wire were? When I changed my spark plugs a couple months ago, my wires had a substance that looked and felt like powder. It came off when wiped with a cloth. I'm wondering if this is the same as what you had.

Did Mathias say why to use mineral motor oil other than the engine was designed for it?

Lee
Y2K K1200 LT Canyon Red - Torn apart by a Bimmer 11-10-10. Sold to Saddleman to be reanimated.
2005 K1200 LT Ocean Blue
ATGATT
CCR 2009, CCR 2010, CCR 2012
IBA #39250
SS1000 - September 2009
BB1500 - September 2009
BMW MOA #167909
Lee510 is offline  
post #19 of 51 Old May 30th, 2010, 11:37 pm
Senior Member
 
lesn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: new berlin, wisconsin, usa
Posts: 338
Re: Eye opening service visit

Simply a SUPERB write up with pics---thanks a million for taking time out to be so detailed...and send Mathias our way
lesn is offline  
post #20 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 12:59 am
Senior Member
 
fpmlt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,175
Re: Eye opening service visit

Yes, thank you. Interesting. When I was putting mine back together, I installed the intake clamps as you did, but was oiling the linkage, and luckily noticed the interference. Got that switched back real quick.
fpmlt is offline  
post #21 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 12:37 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
pozo_izquierdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hyvinkää, , Finland
Posts: 1,583
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thank you all for your interest and kind words.

I try to reply to all of your questions here.
But first some background: At first when I was agreeing upon the appointment I communicated with Matthias by email in English. I do speak German, too but German is only my fourth language (Finnish, English, Swedish, German, Russian). My German buddy Hartmut warned me about Matthias that if he finds out I understand German he will talk like a machine gun (and he will not run out of magazines). So as we met for the first time I realized that his (spoken) English is worse than my German so I decided to reveal my secret that I understand German.
He sometimes got carried away with the speed of his speech although I had reminded him "langsam, bitte"... So could be that I have misunderstood a few things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsonderb
...impression that I should continue using only BMW OEM maintenance parts, filters, etc. despite the somewhat higher cost. Are you of that opinion now also?
Yes I am! Just like Wolfgang said. There are some (few) aftermarket parts that the manufacturer has really improved the product performance (a good example is the replacement trunk latch by LTtrunklatch.com) but I know now that the filters are for sure a wrong place to try to save a few bucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilton
Th
I'll make sure to include a visit during our EU wanderings.
It is a good idea. He is located very conveniently if you are in France for instance. And you can get along with him in English also, as long as you don't give him the impression that you understand German.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver
...How did you'all ever get your bike dissembled with all of your extra wires and options?
Hehe, this is always my task. Every shop that I visit, the tech always raises his hands and says, "you strip it and you put it back together". So I'm used to that. It takes about 1 hour to get the bike to running condition from the shape that it was in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
...
I use OEM stuff on the LT but installed a K&N on my R1200C. I wonder if I should revert back to standard.
Will be interesting to hear your opinion regarding the BRISK plugs.
With (out) your permission, I have published the link on our LT ( www.bmw-lt.com ) site.
I would do it in my next service. If you oil consumption has not increased I would not start panicing, but I don't see any benefits keeping the K&N any longer either.
Abou the BRISK plugs. Matthias explained me something about these plugs having a more powerful or wider or whatever spark but as I explained earlier, he did it in German and I might have missed some parts of the explanation / selling. As I said Matthias sells BRISK products so he has commercial interest in that and advertising and marketing talk one has to try to filter somewhat. BUT my bike sure runs differently. OK, the major thing was of course that now my throttle opens 100% which it did not do after my own winter "service". So there was big difference. But compared to last year's situation (when I had 100% full throttle) I 'd still say the bike runs better. It is smoother and now it really likes to sing past 5000 rpm. Plus the fuel economy has improved. What role do the BRISK plugs play in this game...hard to say yet.
And hereby you get my permission to publish the link on yoiur forum. I tried to look for it but my Spanish is limited to "Hola" and "pozo izquierdo" (=left well, windsurfers paradise in the Canary Islands) so I could not find it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee510
Ari,
...Did Mathias say what the white marks on your number 2 spark plug wire were? When I changed my spark plugs a couple months ago, my wires had a substance that looked and felt like powder. It came off when wiped with a cloth. I'm wondering if this is the same as what you had.
Did Mathias say why to use mineral motor oil other than the engine was designed for it?
The white marks on the spark plug cable are marks from the spark (or part of it) escaping through the cable isolation into the engine block. I'm sure this part of his German I understood 100%. And his explanation makes sense. These cables are the same that are used in auto applications but in cars you don't see them routed and stuffed like this. So perhaps my improved running is also partly a result of all the current in the spark plug cable going into the spark plug and not escaping into the engine frame on the way.

Then about the oil...I knew I possibly opened a can of worms by repeating what (I thought) he said. Let's do so with this oil question that I will write Matthias an email and ask some clarification about it. I am also a little bothered about this myself since during that part of the service job (adding new oil) I was on the phone and not present to see what was the oil he actually put in the engine. If I remember correctly he had two barrels of oil and at least one of them said "SYN" in the label. When I came back from the phone the oil was already in and we continued with throttle linkage problems so I forgot to clarify this.
I'll be back...(like A. Schwartzenegger once said).

Regards

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

Hyvinkää, Finland
2004 ('05) LT, Dark Graphite, "Sunset Cruiser II"

Bike trip from Finland to USA:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Pictures of various farkle projects:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pozo_izquierdo is offline  
post #22 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 12:56 pm
Senior Member
 
fpmlt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,175
Re: Eye opening service visit

I'm 'more-likely-than-not' wrong about this, but my understanding of mineral oils, as a base stock to build on, has natural cleaning properties, and is supposed to be kinder to seals. One of the reasons for using the particular brand of oil that I do.
fpmlt is offline  
post #23 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 2:11 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pelham, AL, United States
Posts: 530
Re: Eye opening service visit

Did you get a part number for the plugs? I downloaded the cross ref. chart but it did not list a plug for the LT.

Believe it or not, I found a dealer in Kimberly, Alabama on Kim Street - it must be karma - so I thought I would pick up a set for the upcoming 30K major service I have planned. (I'm legally "Kimbrell" - father's mother's maiden name)

_____________

Kim Thomson
Motorcycle Cigar Smoker
05 K1200LT - The Golden Rocket Ship
91 K100RS - The White Stallion
85 K100 Standard - Big Red
79 R65 - "The Bee" is a buzzin' again!
06 525i - Premium, Sport, Comfort, Xenons

Gone, but not forgotten...
02 K1200LTC - Big Blue (accident at 40k)
88 K100RT - Chocolate (it was brown, melted - fire)
85 K100RT - (wore out)
82 Yamaha Vision - (electrics)
72 Yamaha R5C 350 - (broke trans)
alabrew is offline  
post #24 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 2:49 pm
LAF
Lifetime Supporter
 
LAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Harrisburg , PA, USA
Posts: 2,993
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thank you for sharing.

I run a K&N and no problems that I know of and no oil use whatsoever however after your sharing I will rethink it at my next 12K.

It also brings up my recent 24,000 valve adjust. I just checked and my intakes were the ones off and with the most wear. I would think if I was burning oil or overheating valve seats my exhaust would have been the worst? Not sure but mine wore what I felt was excessive in 12,000 but I had been spending a bunch of time in the 4-6k RPM so who knows? The next 12K will tell.

It looked like he balanced your throttle bodies from the one picture and would love to have mine done. I had an opportunity when I was way green to do it with a borrowed gauge, but chickened out.

Good info on the spark plug wires and I am very intrigued by the plugs.

Could you ask him what he would charge for plugs to us? I would assume enough interest to buy a few.

And while you are asking I love the wires and loom, maybe how much for a set of them also?

In the meantime I will look for oil use and if I see a hint I will get an OEM air filter in.

Sounds like the plugs, wire, TB Boots and TB balance did you some justice, and getting 1/4 throttle back has you a happy man.

Lee
17.5 R1200 GSW Black Low
15 R1200 RTLC San Marino Blue Metallic (Sold)
10 Liquid Silver FJR1300 (Sold)
O7 Biarritz Blue Metallic LT (Totaled 2010)
ATGATT I am breathing proof.
BMW MOA #135959
LAF is offline  
post #25 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 4:31 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by alabrew
Did you get a part number for the plugs? I downloaded the cross ref. chart but it did not list a plug for the LT.

Believe it or not, I found a dealer in Kimberly, Alabama on Kim Street - it must be karma - so I thought I would pick up a set for the upcoming 30K major service I have planned. (I'm legally "Kimbrell" - father's mother's maiden name)
I found this part number somewhere in this forum. BOR 14 LGS but nothing turns up if it´s Googled.

Maybe an e-mail to Herr Matthias is called for.

Last edited by simoncharles; May 31st, 2010 at 4:46 pm.
simoncharles is offline  
post #26 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 5:16 pm
Senior Member
 
fpmlt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,175
Re: Eye opening service visit

Found this, if it helps
http://www.briskusa.com/Cross%20Refe...PPLICATION.htm
fpmlt is offline  
post #27 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 6:30 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks.

The only thing I found that mentioned the LT didnt have a reference number.

I wonder if the "newer" bikes (post 2001) can use the same plug.
simoncharles is offline  
post #28 of 51 Old May 31st, 2010, 7:36 pm
Senior Member
 
wa1200lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Posts: 2,745
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari, you are the man! Thank you for taking the time and interest to write your experience up for the forum. Would you or anyone else have any theories as to why an air filter would cause temporary oil consumption? I can understand a cheapy filter letting particulates by causing cylinder wear resulting in oil usage but how can a less restrictive filter cause temporary usage?

There are a lot of K&N filters out there and they must not be allowing oil consumption of this magnitude or the company would be out of business in a flash.

As far as bypass oil filters go all quality oil filters have a bypass feature built in. It may be true that non-oem filters use a different bypass pressure than aftermarket but they do have them.

Just wondering.

Thanks guys!,

Loren

WAK1200LT
Loren

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui

Last edited by wa1200lt; May 31st, 2010 at 7:45 pm.
wa1200lt is offline  
post #29 of 51 Old Jun 1st, 2010, 10:49 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe, Northern hemisphere
Posts: 594
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by wa1200lt
Ari, you are the man! Thank you for taking the time and interest to write your experience up for the forum. Would you or anyone else have any theories as to why an air filter would cause temporary oil consumption? I can understand a cheapy filter letting particulates by causing cylinder wear resulting in oil usage but how can a less restrictive filter cause temporary usage?

There are a lot of K&N filters out there and they must not be allowing oil consumption of this magnitude or the company would be out of business in a flash.

As far as bypass oil filters go all quality oil filters have a bypass feature built in. It may be true that non-oem filters use a different bypass pressure than aftermarket but they do have them.

Just wondering.

Thanks guys!,

Loren
Hi

Some aftermarket oil-filters do have the bypass valve. Not all. What is the pressure where valve opens - that might differ from the OEM. As for air filter causing extended oil consumption - wasn't the theory related to alternated airflow and thus different mixture, thus different engine temperature. So the engine should be tuned/chipped for increased air flow. And guess Ari's ride home without extra oil consumption was at least some proof something having had affect on the oil consumption?

Born to be wild so why not

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
C-A-D is offline  
post #30 of 51 Old Jun 1st, 2010, 12:10 pm
Senior Member
 
wa1200lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Posts: 2,745
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks for the response. I completely agree that aftermarket oil filters might have a different opening pressure but would the oil pressure on an LT be that much different than an automobile? If the filter plugs up the flow through the filter would be greatly diminished causing the oil pressure to uncover the bypass valve. I guess the question is does the LT have enough oil pressure/volume to open the port?

You are absolutely correct about something being different on Ari's return trip. Thank goodness for that! Are there are others on this site who use the K&N filter (I'm not one of them) who make long distance high speed runs without high oil consumption? Anyone change to K&N and notice any increase in oil consumption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-A-D
Hi

Some aftermarket oil-filters do have the bypass valve. Not all. What is the pressure where valve opens - that might differ from the OEM. As for air filter causing extended oil consumption - wasn't the theory related to alternated airflow and thus different mixture, thus different engine temperature. So the engine should be tuned/chipped for increased air flow. And guess Ari's ride home without extra oil consumption was at least some proof something having had affect on the oil consumption?

WAK1200LT
Loren

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui
wa1200lt is offline  
post #31 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 9:38 am
Senior Member
 
Toolman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Katy, TX - USA
Posts: 507
Re: Eye opening service visit

Great post Ari, but with all due respect, a couple of things just don't make sense to me.
  1. Oil Filter - What brand oil filter did you have on the bike (before this servicing)? Reason I ask is, nearly ever oil filter on the market has the pressure relief valve, which is a necessary safeguard to prevent oil starvation in the event that the filter media becomes clogged, or flow is reduced too much. So, I'd be surprised to hear that any manufacturer is making oil filters without this safeguard. Having said that, you may be aware that not all oil filters contain an anti-drain back valve...so perhaps this is what Matthias meant about a missing valve. You also said that you had just changed your oil before the trip, so I can't help but wonder how your oil filter became blocked to the extent that there was no flow? Did you change the filter along with that pre-trip oil change?
  2. K&N air filters do provide a reduced intake restriction, and this may require slight changes to the the optimum fuel mapping, but the changes are usually very slight unless you also do something on the exhaust side to create less restriction there too. In short, simply installing a K&N air filter is unlikely to cause the engine to run so hot that it starts burning oil. If you're burning oil, there may be another problem (piston rings, valve seals, etc). You may have been running lean, but this was more likely due to air ingress elsewhere...like cracks in the rubber intake sleeves connecting the throttle bodies to the intake manifold. Incidentally, in addition to oil consumption, worn piston rings can also cause your oil to go black quite quickly, so I might recommend doing a compression test on all of your cylinders when you get a chance.
Cheers, Toolman

I wish I could think of clever things to say in my signature.
Toolman is offline  
post #32 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 10:01 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari will obviously answer when he can, but I can´t remember reading that his oil filter was blocked. I think Herr Matthias advised against using a non OEM filter in case it did get blocked.

Makes sense I suppose, especially when the savings are minimal.

Re high oil consumption using K&N air filters, I myself use one on another bike and haven´t ( up to now ) noticed anything unusual. I wondered about the air intake sleeves being the cause, so until somebody else chimes in with another opinion, we won´t know for sure, although Matthias must know what he is talking about.

Ari, were the sleeves cracked ?.
simoncharles is offline  
post #33 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 1:46 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
pozo_izquierdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hyvinkää, , Finland
Posts: 1,583
Update and answers...

Ok guys, I got hold of Matthias and at first, here is the BRISK spark plug type that he recommends for LT. It is : BOR14LGS

Secondly about the mineral vs. synthetic oil: As I suspected there is really no one truth in this subject. I asked Matthias the following question: "The engine oil. If I understood right you said that BMW recommends mineral oil for the K-engines. Can you explain more about this?"

He usually answers me in German but this time he used English: "The engine oil is a mineral oil with a viscosity of 20/50.
Mineral oils are for example always used in new engines, because the first kilometers with a new engine critical is always.
Here one can use only the best engine oil. As one takes this simply also after the entry time and one always is on the safe technical side."

So...how do you want to interpret that? I guess there ere already enough oil related threads on this forum, let's not make this an additional one. Everyone is using his/her best oil and that's it.

And clarification about the oil filters. During my 110.000 km ( 68350 miles) I have used probably 4-5 Champion C 301 filters and perhaps 4 HiFlo filters in addition to 1-2 OEM filters. I change oil and filter every 10.000 km (6000 miles).. As I already stated with this frequency it is probably very unlikely that an oil filter (even without a bypass valve) would cause an engine failure. And whether non OEM filters have this valve or not - I personally do not know - I just repeated what Matthias explained to me. My decision is to use OEM filters from now on.

Then about my mysterious oil consumption:
I started this season Apr 4th with 100631 km (62529 mi) in my odometer. I had new semisynthetic Mobil Super 2000 10W40 motor oil and new HiFlo oil filter plus brand new K&N air filter. I had filled the oil level to about 75% of the oil sight glass as I always did.

I took off for my Central Europe trip May 7th with 103150 km (64094 mi) in odometer. Before leaving I checked the oil and noticed that it was at half of the sight glass and I added about 1dl (3,4 oz) which I never had to do before. I did not pay much attention to this at that time, I just figured that maybe I just left the oil a little low 2500 km ago when I filled it. And besides, I was perhaps going to ride a bit faster on the German and Dutch autobahns, so let's make sure I have oil.

At 105630 km (65635 mi) i.e. 2480 km (1541 mi) later I was at the servce with Matthias and my oil sight glass was dry. This distance included crossing Sweden and Denmark as well as riding around in Dutch small roads so riding hard on the German autobahns was actually just some 100 - 150 km max. (And besides...my throttle only opened 80% at that time so the "hard" was not so hard after all... )

Matthias filled the oil sight glass to 95% full. And he changed back the OEM air filter. I took the attached picture yesterday and my odometer read 109480 (68027 mi). So after 3850 km (2392 mi) my oil level had dropped to the level you can see (is it 80 % or so?)
This distance includes at least as hard driving as my leg before the filter change. (Now I get full power and I have been enjoying it.. )

Therefore again, I just repeat what this Matthias (whom I consider and expert guy) explained to me. I have seen with my own eyes how my oil sight glass has dried out from 60-65% full to zero (or God knows how much below, because the oil level was no longer visible) in a relatively short distance (1541 miles).
After changing the OEM air filter my oil consumption has come back to normal.

Yes, I have now new spark plugs, new spark plug cables, new fuel quick connectors, new oil filter, new oil sight glass AND new rubber intake manifold sleeves. As I mentioned two of them had already cracks on them but at least on the eye the cracks had not gone through the rubber yet. I also had the K&N filter changed back to OEM. Out of those new parts my bet goes for the K&N air filter as being the cause for the abnormal oil consumption. But also, as Toolman says, a leaking rubber sleeve could cause similar symptoms. (Actually I would think the consequenses of this should be much more dramatic, judging from the sample piston and cylinder Matthias showed to me.)

At least my conclusion is to stick to OEM air filter from now on. I'm really wondering what was I thinking when I went away from it in the first place. They cost about 30% more than OEM over here but perhaps I was figuring that I would save money by not needing to change it.

But...each to his own. Thank you all for your comments and interest. I've chosen my way...

Regards
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Oil level June 1st.JPG
Views:	461
Size:	349.4 KB
ID:	27608  

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

Hyvinkää, Finland
2004 ('05) LT, Dark Graphite, "Sunset Cruiser II"

Bike trip from Finland to USA:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Pictures of various farkle projects:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pozo_izquierdo is offline  
post #34 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 3:18 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Myrtle Beach SC, SC, USA
Posts: 2,192
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thanks Ari, you made a great thread even better with this latest post.

Jeff in Myrtle Beach
'01 LTC
'99 Icon champagne
'02 KLR 650
TZ 185 2 stroke
Honda R100R beater

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jeffklt is offline  
post #35 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 3:26 pm
Senior Member
 
wa1200lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Posts: 2,745
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffklt
Thanks Ari, you made a great thread even better with this latest post.
+1 Thanks again for the follow up Ari.

Loren

WAK1200LT
Loren

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui
wa1200lt is offline  
post #36 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 3:36 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Not so fast Ari !!.

We will still want to hear your opinion about the plugs !.
simoncharles is offline  
post #37 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 3:49 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
pozo_izquierdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hyvinkää, , Finland
Posts: 1,583
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Not so fast Ari !!.

We will still want to hear your opinion about the plugs !.
Well, Simon. what do you want me to say about them?

The bike runs like new (or even better if possible), but how big of an effect do the Brisk plugs have? I don't know. The biggest effect was of course the fixing of my own goofing (the reversed rubber sleeve clamp) which now gives me full throttle. But I'm sure the new "non-leaking" spark plug cables also have a role in improving the engine performance. And balancing of the throttle bodies as well...

At least I can say that the plugs LOOK effective and powerful!

Regards

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

Hyvinkää, Finland
2004 ('05) LT, Dark Graphite, "Sunset Cruiser II"

Bike trip from Finland to USA:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Pictures of various farkle projects:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pozo_izquierdo is offline  
post #38 of 51 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 5:27 pm
Member
 
jukka71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyvinkaa, , Finland, Europe
Posts: 71
Re: Eye opening service visit

Very interesting reading! Kiitos! I don´t do my service but anyway.. thanks!

Jukka

rides 1200GS -07 (LT -01 sold 22th june 2010)
jukka71 is offline  
post #39 of 51 Old Jun 4th, 2010, 5:53 pm
Senior Member
 
sheldan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: kings mountain, NC, usa
Posts: 2,099
Unhappy Re: Eye opening service visit

BRISKUSA quoted me $17.99 per plug.

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying " I'll try again tomorrow".


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sheldan2 is offline  
post #40 of 51 Old Jun 5th, 2010, 2:39 am
Senior Member
 
wa1200lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Posts: 2,745
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldan2
BRISKUSA quoted me $17.99 per plug.
They had better be some FINE plugs!


Loren

WAK1200LT
Loren

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui
wa1200lt is offline  
post #41 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 10:29 am
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 50
Re: Eye opening service visit

Thank you for taking the time to post the many fine pictures and write up that you did. It was entertaining as well as informative and you are to be commended.I look forward to your posts. That being said, I'm amused at the conclusions we have come away with considering the number of variables involved. It seems that a little oil, fixing of the boot and cleaning the plugs would have done a world of good in and of itself. It makes me wonder if you guys are seeing black helicopters or unicorns.
Winky is offline  
post #42 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 11:40 am
Senior Member
 
RonKMiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 6,280
Re: Eye opening service visit

I see dead people.

Balancing the throttle bodies makes ALL the difference... along with replacing the intake sleeves.

Those plugs are interesting, but $80.00 a set is out of the question for my Scotch genes.

I have a really hard time understanding how an air filter can affect oil consumption. If the engine was running THAT hot "reading" the spark plugs would have confirmed it. As another poster mentioned you can usually only induce such a super lean condition with the addition of an open exhaust.
Surprised he didn't do a leak down and/or compression test.

I'm a real proponent of using OEM parts almost all of the time. Attached is picture of sand left in the exterior portion of the airbox of my Mercedes that the OEM air filter kept from getting into the engine after a forced drive through a sand storm in southern California. (it's a long story but my dog was dying...) The inside of the airbox was a clean as a whistle. Will I spend $80.00 again for new OEM air filters?

You betcha!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	airbox sand 1.jpg
Views:	87
Size:	42.5 KB
ID:	31340   Click image for larger version

Name:	airbox sand 2.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	52.6 KB
ID:	31341  


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Like Butt-ahh!"
RonKMiller is offline  
post #43 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 2:45 pm
Member
 
av8trto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Eagle, ID, USA
Posts: 94
Re: Eye opening service visit

After reading the original post I had to go back and re-read my '99 BMW LT Rider's Manual (US Model), page 40 on checking the engine oil level.

BMW says the bottom of the glass is MIN and the center of the glass is the MAX engine oil level when the bike is on the side (prop) stand. It also says check it cold or ten minutes after running. (on level ground)

Clymer says the bottom of the glass in MIN and the top of the glass is MAX when on the bike is on the center stand. They do say on "early" model LT's, BMW specified the oil is checked on the side stand and on the center stand. My BMW book doesn't say that.

Just wondering if some of the starting smoke could be cause by overfilling the oil? My bike doesn't really smoke on starting. (I run my oil level at the center of the glass) Maybe a puff if it has sat for a month in the winter.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	BMW 99 1200LT Oil Check Procedure.jpg
Views:	425
Size:	1.68 MB
ID:	31343  
av8trto is offline  
post #44 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 3:36 pm
Senior Member
 
AlaskaFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hillsboro, OR, USA
Posts: 3,136
Wink Re: Eye opening service visit

Don, if you look real close at the attachment you posted, you can see that the pic shows the Oil level almost at the top of the glass (note the small slit right at the top of the circle). This is the Max level. It is misleading due to the arrow pointing toward the center of the glass. I haave always tried to keep mine at, or even a little above the center of the sight glass.

HTH,

John

John & Marilyn Fisher
'00 K1200LTC "Katie"
'95 Triumph "Tigger"
'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
Hillsboro, Oregon

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AlaskaFish is offline  
post #45 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 4:19 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,436
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by av8trto
After reading the original post I had to go back and re-read my '99 BMW LT Rider's Manual (US Model), page 40 on checking the engine oil level.

BMW says the bottom of the glass is MIN and the center of the glass is the MAX engine oil level when the bike is on the side (prop) stand. It also says check it cold or ten minutes after running. (on level ground)

Clymer says the bottom of the glass in MIN and the top of the glass is MAX when on the bike is on the center stand. They do say on "early" model LT's, BMW specified the oil is checked on the side stand and on the center stand. My BMW book doesn't say that.

Just wondering if some of the starting smoke could be cause by overfilling the oil? My bike doesn't really smoke on starting. (I run my oil level at the center of the glass) Maybe a puff if it has sat for a month in the winter.
You are right - the Rider's Manual doesn't say what the Clymers manual does. However, BMW issued a TSB back in the day to correctly spell out that the oil level check should be made with the bike on the centerstand and on level ground. They admitted that there were too many variables when using the sidestand, since not all 'leans' are the same angles, etc. I think there may be a copy of that TSB in the HoW pages. They further pointed out that the correct min(max) is middle(top) of the red circle in the sight glass.
Dick is offline  
post #46 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 5:39 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ron, what about the dog ? Were you able to save him ?.
simoncharles is offline  
post #47 of 51 Old May 15th, 2011, 8:23 pm
Senior Member
 
RonKMiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 6,280
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Ron, what about the dog ? Were you able to save him ?.
Yep, he made it.

The missus and myself were off to San Diego for Christmas for a week and left on the 26th. It's about an 8 hour drive from Tucson.

Christmas Day we spent some time next to a pond at a locked up private resort that I just happen to have the keys to - just goofin' off playing frisbee and having a quiet day.

Seems like our hound likes duck poop and got a lick or two while we weren't paying attention. He was fine that night...

The next day half way to Dago he started puking and pooping at the same time - IN THE CAR! We had to stop about every 20 minutes to let him out. We drove for an hour at 50 mph through a blinding sand storm near Imperial with winds gusting over 50 mph. By the time we got to Dago he was in deep shock and passed out. I called a Vet Clinic and luckily they were open and saw him right away.

A couple of hours later after IV fluid and antibiotics he was fine - but the vet said he would have probably died within an hour or two if we didn't have the intervention from severe dehydration and diarrhea.

The tab was $400.00 for the vet, but I can't imagine spending the holiday without him - he's our riding buddy...

$10K in cosmetic damage to the car which insurance reluctantly covered. It was TRASHED and only 6 months old at the time...

We still had a great vacation - but what a start!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	koko in yosemite 2.jpg
Views:	143
Size:	190.7 KB
ID:	31357  


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Like Butt-ahh!"
RonKMiller is offline  
post #48 of 51 Old May 16th, 2011, 4:05 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Great news ! Tell him to stick to chicken shit from now on.
simoncharles is offline  
post #49 of 51 Old May 16th, 2011, 8:43 am
Senior Member
 
RonKMiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 6,280
Re: Eye opening service visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Great news ! Tell him to stick to chicken shit from now on.
LOL -

He's a coprophagic little bugger... never seen any he didn't like.

Sorry for the highjack Ari!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Like Butt-ahh!"
RonKMiller is offline  
post #50 of 51 Old May 16th, 2011, 10:36 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,985
Re: Eye opening service visit

Ari ?. The man with a DOG (the one with the longer nose) in his avatar ?. Don´t think he will mind.
simoncharles is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Never Again!!!!!!!!!!! JTEC K1200LT 75 Oct 16th, 2014 8:44 am
Now That is Service!! RTTommy RT Series 3 Jul 4th, 2008 2:14 pm
BMW Service Feedback: ABS Flash / Hard Shift JG3GA K1200LT 5 Jun 11th, 2008 11:25 pm
EWS! = Even Worse Service! krmdallas Dealer Experiences 0 Jun 3rd, 2008 7:09 pm
Service from a Non BMW Service Center dneundorf K1200LT 6 Feb 4th, 2007 6:32 pm

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome