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post #1 of 54 Old May 26th, 2010, 8:42 pm Thread Starter
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Brake hose failure registry?

What would it take to start a brake hose failure registry? I have a 2000 K1200lt and was in a close call the other day. One of a rider's main defenses is the ability to stop on a dime with proper brake control. During the close call I grabbed my front brake only to find that it suddenly failed and I only got a little braking as the lever pull all the way to the grip. After some troubleshooting and checking the front master cylinder, I finally found the problem to be a leak in the upper brake hose about 1/2 inch from the lower connection. I have read on this forum that other riders have had the same failure. A brake hose failure is unacceptable even on a 10 year old bike. I have had many older bikes and never a brake hose failure. I even have a 58 year old willis jeep with the original hoses. Had the close call become a collision, you can bet BMW would be receiving a call from my attorney. I think BMW should recall all bikes that show multiple brake line failures and replace them. Hopefully documenting this will add credibility to a lawsuit should a fellow rider fall due to this unacceptable safety problem.
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post #2 of 54 Old May 26th, 2010, 9:30 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmartin248
What would it take to start a brake hose failure registry? I have a 2000 K1200lt and was in a close call the other day. One of a rider's main defenses is the ability to stop on a dime with proper brake control. During the close call I grabbed my front brake only to find that it suddenly failed and I only got a little braking as the lever pull all the way to the grip. After some troubleshooting and checking the front master cylinder, I finally found the problem to be a leak in the upper brake hose about 1/2 inch from the lower connection. I have read on this forum that other riders have had the same failure. A brake hose failure is unacceptable even on a 10 year old bike. I have had many older bikes and never a brake hose failure. I even have a 58 year old willis jeep with the original hoses. Had the close call become a collision, you can bet BMW would be receiving a call from my attorney. I think BMW should recall all bikes that show multiple brake line failures and replace them. Hopefully documenting this will add credibility to a lawsuit should a fellow rider fall due to this unacceptable safety problem.
I disagree. 10 years is pushing it for any rubber part that is exposed to the elements, UV and ozone in particular. If you want brake lines to last more than 10 years, buy braided stainless so that the sun can't get to the rubber.

My Chevy pickup had 16 year-old brake lines, but I just recently replaced them as they were cracking visibly. And this is a vehicle that has always been garaged and with brake hoses that are pretty much shielded from the sun.

Your brake line failure was due to lack of maintenance and replacing life limited parts before they life is up.

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post #3 of 54 Old May 26th, 2010, 10:27 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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post #4 of 54 Old May 26th, 2010, 10:56 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

UV and Ozone????? what the heck.... The failure was caused by poor materials and bad design. This is not my first rodeo. I have been riding for 48 years and presently have 9 motorcycles, and 4 four-wheelers which most have brake hoses on them and have never had a failure of a brake hose except this BMW. I don't know if the previous owner changed the fluid yearly as BMW suggest, but this is not a fluid problem. The rubber broke down way before its time and you yourself say your chevy has 16 years on its brake hoses. I challenge anyone to find any other vehicle that has multiple brake hose failures in 10 years. Oh,, and UV exposure: the failure part of the hose has never ever seen sunlight. Ozone? caused by electrical discharge from motors, welding, etc... The bike has not been exposed to excessive Ozone.
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post #5 of 54 Old May 26th, 2010, 11:18 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Yeah, Sucks huh ?

I had the rear master cylinder hose fail on mine..

I just spent the twenty bucks and got a new line made..

You should sue BMW.....If you win.. Let us know....

I understand your frustration but mechanical things fail...I've been there many times but in the end all you can do is fix your bike and ride on...

BMW doesn't give a damn about you or your failure other than to maybe sell you some new parts..

Like I said, Sucks huh ?

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post #6 of 54 Old May 27th, 2010, 1:01 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I have a '99 LT and experience the rear brake leak (massive) at 66K and replaced it with a locally manufactured steel-braided line for $65.....when the front brake line went out at the top of the line where it connects to the banjo bolt I about had a fit....fortunately, I was braking less than 200m from my house when this happened!

That very same day I went online and ordered Speigler Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines to replace everything related to the brake system. I also ordered all new Carbon Lorraine front and rear pads and Speed Bleeders (boy did those make it easy to do the job in bleeding the system)!

BTW....Speigler lines are guaranteed for life!! Great service....call 'em and speak with Mathias (pronounced Matt-ae-us)

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post #7 of 54 Old May 27th, 2010, 11:09 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I remember that the German TUV ( the organization that does mandatory vehicle inspections in Germany) used to require new brake lines on cars after 10 years.

I started to search German sites and found this:

"Gummibremsschläuche sollten im Motorradbereich, nach Herstellerangaben alle 4-6 Jahre gewechselt, werden"

Translation: "Based on manufacturers recommodation, Motorcycle rubber brake lines should be replaced every 4 to 6 years. " It goes on the say that such recomodation no longer exsists for cars.

My opinion: The life span depends on the enviroment. Cool and not much direct sun light, they may outlast the bike. Hot, and in a lot of sunlight, as soon as you see cracks, replace.

I replaced mine with Spiegler lines and difference is amazing. Much firmer feel, and easier to apply just the right pressure.
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post #8 of 54 Old May 27th, 2010, 1:36 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

For the registry. Both the hose from the front master cylinder, and the one at the left front caliper started to leak last summer. Bike is an '02 with, at the time, 102k miles and has been in the Southwest for most of the time. Replaced with Spiegler's.

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post #9 of 54 Old May 27th, 2010, 3:27 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
... Your brake line failure was due to lack of maintenance and replacing life limited parts before they life is up.
+1.
Also, was the 2-year brake fluid change schedule followed on the bike?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmartin248
... I even have a 58 year old willis jeep with the original hoses. ...
Now that I know that classic car owners ride around with World War II vintage brake hoses, I'll stay way-way the f*&* away. You are kidding us, no?

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post #10 of 54 Old May 27th, 2010, 8:48 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

An acquaintance of mine bought a 99 last year. On his way to show it to me, the right front line burst just above the caliper. Being a miser (in this case a foolish miser) he didn't spring for a new line but rather bought an used line from one of the wrecking yards. It came, I put it on for him with the understanding that I was dead set against using an used brake line, and after getting everything back together, his brakes are still soft and spongy. I wouldn't ride his bike to the end of my driveway to get the mail.

Just this spring, I was slowing on an off ramp, pulled my front brake lever and it came all the way back to the handlebar. The brakes worked, but THAT is not a good feeling. Limped over to the dealer a mile away and had them check it out. I was having a brake line aneurism. I ordered a set of SS Speiglers right then and there and limped the bike back home and parked it 'til I put the new brake lines on it. The Speiglers were $210 and worth every single penny! FWIW, the service manager asked me when I last changed the lines and I told him I bought the bike used, but I imagine they are the stock lines. He told me the OEM brake lines should be replaced every 4 years if you value your life. I do. I changed to the Speiglers and haven't looked back.

P.S. My Hondas used to have VERY spongy brakes and so did my brother's Voyager. The Japanese don't make brake lines any better than the Germans do.
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post #11 of 54 Old May 27th, 2010, 10:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Actually I did replace my 1952 willis M38 brake hose in the late 80's but the original still worked. Everyone wants to talk about how BMW recommends replacing the brake hoses every 4 years. This only re-enforces my statement that the materials and engineering are far below standard and this is supposed to be a premium motorcycle. I still challenge anyone to produce comparable brake line failures on ANY highway vehicle. Toyota just spent billions on a sticking gas peddle and I would swap a sticking throttle for a brake failure anytime. I have ridden everything from a cushman eagle to the latest CBR1000 and only remember one brake hose failure and it was a late 70's Honda CB750 that was stored in a chicken house for years and the brake hoses swelled closed but never had a through the wall failure. This BMW has spent all its life in a garage except for the 22k original miles on it. No one will be able to convince me that brake hoses should be replaced every 4 years on ANYTHING unless the material is sub-standard.
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post #12 of 54 Old May 28th, 2010, 7:39 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Posting over and over here will not change BMW's processes one iotta, so what's the point. You are pissed now get over it. I have had brake line failures on many British products. If you bought it new you know what you got if you bought it used you take your chances. Fix it and go for a ride and enjoy the fine handling that BMW did manage to engineer in to this great machine.
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post #13 of 54 Old May 29th, 2010, 12:48 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I haven't looked yet but are the brake lines indicated to be replaced in the service interval section in the owners manual? LOL..... Either way mine went out this past fall on a bike with 16K miles. I think it's a big load of crap that BMW puts these cheap brake lines on these bikes. It's all about saving a dollar at our expense of our safety. Don't forget the fact that they have those nice high pressure fuel line connectors that leak too. Strike two right?
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post #14 of 54 Old May 29th, 2010, 1:49 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine
I haven't looked yet but are the brake lines indicated to be replaced in the service interval section in the owners manual? LOL..... Either way mine went out this past fall on a bike with 16K miles. I think it's a big load of crap that BMW puts these cheap brake lines on these bikes. It's all about saving a dollar at our expense of our safety. Don't forget the fact that they have those nice high pressure fuel line connectors that leak too. Strike two right?
My front hose failed at the junction block. When I removed it I looked at how it was made. I didn't notice anything "cheap" about its construction. It appeared to be constructed of the same material and in the same fashion as automotive brake hoses. but these hoses are subjected to higher internal pressures (I believe they are anyway) more vibration and are in the elements more. The Spiegler hoses are just a few dollars more for a complete set than the hose that split on me.And they look better.
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post #15 of 54 Old Jun 2nd, 2010, 12:52 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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Originally Posted by Morley
My front hose failed at the junction block. When I removed it I looked at how it was made. I didn't notice anything "cheap" about its construction. It appeared to be constructed of the same material and in the same fashion as automotive brake hoses. but these hoses are subjected to higher internal pressures (I believe they are anyway) more vibration and are in the elements more. The Spiegler hoses are just a few dollars more for a complete set than the hose that split on me.And they look better.
I guess using cheap was a poor choice of words. I do think that the hose is damaged when the crimping process is performed though.

On a side subject...... I do like how you put out there about the LT's brake systems having higher pressures(what are the relative pressure then and compared to what?) and more vibrations(relative to what?) cause the brake line failures without any proof other than your belief of either being an issue. Welcome to the internet where everybody is an expert because they have heard it or read it somewhere.
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post #16 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 3:18 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I do think BMW should be liable for the cheap workmanship and materials they put into a part that could kill people. I also think before the lines go, then melt enough crud into the brake system that the ABS unit fails at the same time of shortly afterwards.

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post #17 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 3:46 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

MAking service intervals just shows that they know they suck and will fail, Honda fixed timing belt issues years ago by making the interval shorter that originally in the owners manual, that only puts blame on the owners for something that was designed wrong.

Then later Honda did the right thing and removed all belts and put chains in, then the failures stopped happening!

BMW, Your turn?
We as owners would be happy with simple things like, lower cost replacement parts, or a discount on next bike?

Too many people are defending the corporate decision to risk our lives, I guess because they like the bikes. But that is not the issue.

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post #18 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 3:48 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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I do think BMW should be liable for the cheap workmanship and materials they put into a part that could kill people. I also think before the lines go, then melt enough crud into the brake system that the ABS unit fails at the same time of shortly afterwards.
Do you have even a shred of evidence to support this borderline libelous assertion?

The stock brake lines on my 2007 are still working fine after 7+ years and 48,000 miles. I will change them this winter as 7 years is quite a while for rubber parts exposed to UV and ozone (same holds for tires, radiator hoses, etc.
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post #19 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 3:51 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

CMARTIN248 has a good point. This is another engineering inconsistency of BMW designing a tremendously expensive ABS linked braking system for the safety of the rider and then to use only marginal quality brake lines with such a short life span again seems contradictory to what BMW products are suppose to be all about" higher price for higher engineered quality". I can just hear them, " Ve r untz 100 euro's overenz budget. HALT z gut brakenz lines"
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post #20 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 5:13 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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CMARTIN248 has a good point. This is another engineering inconsistency of BMW designing a tremendously expensive ABS linked braking system for the safety of the rider and then to use only marginal quality brake lines with such a short life span again seems contradictory to what BMW products are suppose to be all about" higher price for higher engineered quality". I can just hear them, " Ve r untz 100 euro's overenz budget. HALT z gut brakenz lines"
Again, what data do you have to support your assertion?

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post #21 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 5:27 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

My 1965 Pontiac GTO failed a front brake line in 1971. It happens. That was back when autos had a single master cylinder. At least our bikes have front & rear master cylinders.

The first thing I do is install speigler brake lines. The last thing I need is a brake line failure entering a corner over 100 mph that I need to slow down to 30 mph or less.
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post #22 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 6:55 pm
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don't take this the wrong way but sometimes engineers lack common no data needed sometimes engineers don't have common sense the bike should have had stainless steel brake hoses hands down from the start
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post #23 of 54 Old Oct 23rd, 2014, 9:17 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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don't take this the wrong way but sometimes engineers lack common no data needed sometimes engineers don't have common sense the bike should have had stainless steel brake hoses hands down from the start
???

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post #24 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 6:49 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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UV and Ozone????? what the heck.... The failure was caused by poor materials and bad design. ...I don't know if the previous owner changed the fluid yearly as BMW suggest, but this is not a fluid problem. The rubber broke down way before its time and you yourself say your chevy has 16 years on its brake hoses. I challenge anyone to find any other vehicle that has multiple brake hose failures in 10 years. Oh,, and UV exposure: the failure part of the hose has never ever seen sunlight. Ozone? caused by electrical discharge from motors, welding, etc... The bike has not been exposed to excessive Ozone.
I've been riding since 1967, and have owned some 26 BMW motorcycles and cars with remarkably few issues. I had a GMC diesel pickup truck that popped brake lines twice. I stopped it with less than 1" clearance during the second failure. The paint, body, and interior of that truck were mint. The brakes, fuel delivery, undersides and electrics began to fall apart after its 5th birthday. In situations involving a previously owned vehicle, it is ridiculous to blame the manufacture when the present owner clearly does not know the true service or maintenance history of that vehicle. I've met your challenge, now send my gift to…
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post #25 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 9:39 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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???
Sorry, that's what I get for trying to post sitting in my car trying to see the damn small print on my phone.

My point is that sometimes data is not required to make a common sense and subsequent good engineering decision to stop this 1200 lb.+/- beast where the ABS/linked braking unit can put out very high pressures during emergency braking. These bikes should come with stainless brake lines, not the same rubber lines they put on a Yugo. Also cars have emergency brakes bikes do not!
Data is great when all the components are new, engineered and bench tested but five/ten years down the road the varying affects of environmental and internal degradation of the hoses should be an engineering common sense consideration on the side of safety. This points to using better brake lines. Granted items need to be replaced for wear and tear but brake line failure should be a rare occurrence but seems to happens prematurely and all to often on these machines.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #26 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 10:58 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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Sorry, that's what I get for trying to post sitting in my car trying to see the damn small print on my phone.

My point is that sometimes data is not required to make a common sense and subsequent good engineering decision to stop this 1200 lb.+/- beast where the ABS/linked braking unit can put out very high pressures during emergency braking. These bikes should come with stainless brake lines, not the same rubber lines they put on a Yugo. Also cars have emergency brakes bikes do not!
Data is great when all the components are new, engineered and bench tested but five/ten years down the road the varying affects of environmental and internal degradation of the hoses should be an engineering common sense consideration on the side of safety. This points to using better brake lines. Granted items need to be replaced for wear and tear but brake line failure should be a rare occurrence but seems to happens prematurely and all to often on these machines.

Just my 2 cents.
I am a big fan of common sense also, but common sense doesn't generally work well when dealing with complex systems. Most vehicles on the road use rubber brake hoses, including cars and trucks with ABS. There is nothing inherently wrong with hoses of this type.

I have read a few anecdotes about failed BMW hoses, but no real evidence of a systematic problem. My own hoses are nearing 8 years of age from the date of manufacture of my bike and they have no exterior cracks nor other signs of distress. I do keep my LT garaged so it's exposure to UV is much reduced which helps a lot.
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post #27 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 1:25 pm
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As much as I understand and agree to a point about the brake line failure's.BMW nor the NHTSA will do a thing about it. So I'm replacing my lines on my 04 LT with spieglers this winter.Then I know my brakeslines are the best they can be. My life and my spouses life are to important to chance it.
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post #28 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 9:21 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Hey. whereabout are you in Cleveland?

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post #29 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 9:46 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

A lot of items on all early 2000s German vehicles proved to be poor quality, thanks to influence of Jose Ignacio Lopez, whose ideas regarding squeezing suppliers on price became widely held in the industry.

On BMW bikes of the era, wiring harnesses are problematic along with brake hoses. Note that all current BMW bikes have braided steel lines. And, CANBus has replaced most wiring. Things do get fixed on later models, but there's no evidence the manufacturer "knew" the part would have an unusually limited life at the outset. In the Nuke industry where I worked, many items are environmentally tested for decades, but they still are installed--you couldn't afford a bike with components tested in this manner.

Nevertheless history shows that when an item is widely known throughout the industry to have a limited life, there will not be a recall and it's the responsibility of the vehicle owner to maintain the vehicle regarding this item. Being a DIY person oblivious to industry information is not an out. The only way to be compensated for items like this on an old bike is to keep buying warranties.

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post #30 of 54 Old Oct 24th, 2014, 11:46 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I got 12 years on my original OEM brakes lines on my LT. The rear master cylinder line blew out in the garage, while I was doing an annual maintenance and shock replacement.

BMW's unofficial recommendation brake line change out of all brake lines is 4-6 years. I installed Spiegler's...Actually cheaper than the OEM lines.

And those of you who think you can get BMW to do something about the lines....forget it. They wouldn't even cover the 4% of out of warranty failed rear drives. And the National safety board won't force BMW to do anything unless someone has been killed because of the failure of the lines...and it would have to be a bunch of deaths...not just one.

So you can piss and moan about it. But most who didn't change out their lines 4-6 years from production date usually got 8-12 year before the lines ruptured or started leaking at the banjo bolts.

Just think on this...The OEM lines have a brake fluid resistant inner sleeve, but it breaks down over time. The reason is partly chemical attack and partly pressure attack. Those rubber lines take a beating with all the pressure generated when the pumps and ABS kick in.

And when that material starts to break down the particles travel into the ABS circuits plugging up the very small journals and when that happen...Kiss Your ABS goodbye!

So here is the deal...For under $300, you can buy Spiegler SS lines and change them yourself for the additional cost of the Brake Fluid and $50 +/- for a reverse fluid pusher! Or you can have your dealer do it for about $800-$1000....Or you can wait for the little rubber particles to enter your ABS and you can then for $2,200 plus the cost of getting new brake lines. If you stick with OEM, change your lines out every oh say 5 years. Get Spiegler lines, one time cost and forget about it.

but don't wait, put off or delay.......I was lucky that mine failed after removing the right driver foot plate and tying it off to get to the Transmission fill plug while on the lift in the garage. It could have happened while riding with my wife on the back while towing my camper or Uni-Go cargo trailer. And while in the Rain!
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post #31 of 54 Old Oct 29th, 2014, 1:59 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

My rear brake failed on my 2000 LT with 38K miles earlier this summer so I replaced them all with stainless braided lines.

I have a 1978 KZ1000 with original brake lines. No problems.
I have a 1979 KZ1300 with original brake lines. No problems.
I have a 2001 Yamaha FZ1 with original brake lines. No problems. (The FZ1 brakes with stock lines are still the best brakes I've ever had on a motorcycle)
I had a 1989 XT 600. The rear brake was mechanical, but the front brakes were original lines and no problems. I sold that bike about 6 years ago.
I have a 2001 Suzuki DR400s with original brake lines. No problems.

The failures with the BMW brake lines is certainly disappointing. The rep I spoke with at Spiegler said that they sold over 1,000 kits for the early LT's this year alone, so it seems they are all starting to fail.


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post #32 of 54 Old Oct 29th, 2014, 2:01 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Joe, how many of your bikes have ABS?

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post #33 of 54 Old Oct 29th, 2014, 3:00 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTerry View Post
My rear brake failed on my 2000 LT with 38K miles earlier this summer so I replaced them all with stainless braided lines.
:
Snip
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The failures with the BMW brake lines is certainly disappointing. The rep I spoke with at Spiegler said that they sold over 1,000 kits for the early LT's this year alone, so it seems they are all starting to fail.
My '99 KLT radiator hoses were replaced due to age not failure, gas tank gas lines changed due to age not failure, I purchased Spiegler brake lines and will replace them due to age,not failure. Your assumption of failures is not quite accurate and an understanding of materials aging needs to be considered.

HTH,
Jer
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post #34 of 54 Old Oct 29th, 2014, 4:26 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
My '99 KLT radiator hoses were replaced due to age not failure, gas tank gas lines changed due to age not failure, I purchased Spiegler brake lines and will replace them due to age,not failure. Your assumption of failures is not quite accurate and an understanding of materials aging needs to be considered.

HTH,
Jer
+1 especially on the brake lines for safety. I see no point being disappointed or debating if they should last longer or not. I just ordered my Speiglers for part of this winter's maintenance (hopefully) before mine fail.

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post #35 of 54 Old Nov 2nd, 2014, 10:50 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
My '99 KLT radiator hoses were replaced due to age not failure, gas tank gas lines changed due to age not failure, I purchased Spiegler brake lines and will replace them due to age,not failure. Your assumption of failures is not quite accurate and an understanding of materials aging needs to be considered.

HTH,
Jer
So the Spiegler aftermarket brakes I installed have a lifetime warranty. My understanding of materials and aging is just fine. I understand that every brake line on every motorcycle I have ever owned has never failed and the aftermarket ones I have installed are manufactured to last a lifetime.


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post #36 of 54 Old Nov 2nd, 2014, 10:59 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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Joe, how many of your bikes have ABS?
The BMW is the only one I own with ABS and the only bike I have owned that has experienced any kind of brake failure. If your point is that ABS brakes inherently experience more internal pressure than non ABS brakes that might be a valid point if the failures were between the master cylinder and abs control, but nearly every failure has been at the upstream end of the rear brake hose and with an ABS system, those hoses should be under less pressure than a non-abs system during panic stops.


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post #37 of 54 Old Nov 3rd, 2014, 5:59 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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The BMW is the only one I own with ABS and the only bike I have owned that has experienced any kind of brake failure. If your point is that ABS brakes inherently experience more internal pressure than non ABS brakes that might be a valid point if the failures were between the master cylinder and abs control, but nearly every failure has been at the upstream end of the rear brake hose and with an ABS system, those hoses should be under less pressure than a non-abs system during panic stops.
Why would they be under less pressure?

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post #38 of 54 Old Nov 3rd, 2014, 1:55 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Because if one stands on the brakes, the ABS unit regulates the pressures back on the slave cylinder as not to lock the wheel during extreme braking. Without the ABS modulator, the full force applied on the master cylinder is applied to the slave cylinder.


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post #39 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 5:29 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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Because if one stands on the brakes, the ABS unit regulates the pressures back on the slave cylinder as not to lock the wheel during extreme braking. Without the ABS modulator, the full force applied on the master cylinder is applied to the slave cylinder.
True, for very short periods of time, but then you have pressure spikes during the transitions as you have dynamic force added to the static force (due to pressure). Think of water hammer in plumbing that has fast acting valves. These forces can be very high for short periods of time. Non abs brake systems don't have these pressure spikes.

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post #40 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 7:38 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I gotta side with Joe on this one. Older ABS on cars would lock and unlock the brakes to keep the wheels turning. Newer units don't have any of the pulsing in the pedal felt in the older systems. Motorcycles can't pulse the pressure and lock/unlock the wheels for obvious reasons. While it's regulated, it's a smooth regulation as felt by the operator. I suspect that ABS actually lowers the line pressure as it keeps the wheels from locking up. However with that said, I doubt we'll ever know for certain. What I do know for certain is that BMW brake lines on a 2000 LT are crap compared to the rest of the motorcycle world. I think it's more of a design defect than a quality control issue. Lines are too short in some places and take too severe of a turn in others, causing excessive stress on the lines during daily use and especially during service work. Four of mine failed.


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post #41 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 7:57 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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I gotta side with Joe on this one. Older ABS on cars would lock and unlock the brakes to keep the wheels turning. Newer units don't have any of the pulsing in the pedal felt in the older systems. Motorcycles can't pulse the pressure and lock/unlock the wheels for obvious reasons. While it's regulated, it's a smooth regulation as felt by the operator. I suspect that ABS actually lowers the line pressure as it keeps the wheels from locking up. However with that said, I doubt we'll ever know for certain. What I do know for certain is that BMW brake lines on a 2000 LT are crap compared to the rest of the motorcycle world. I think it's more of a design defect than a quality control issue. Lines are too short in some places and take too severe of a turn in others, causing excessive stress on the lines during daily use and especially during service work. Four of mine failed.
The fact that you don't feel the pulsing doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

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post #42 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 8:36 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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The fact that you don't feel the pulsing doesn't mean it isn't occurring.
And your evidence/proof that it is occurring?
Like I said, we'll probably never know.
Everybody gets their opinion.


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post #43 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 8:47 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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And your evidence/proof that it is occurring?
Like I said, we'll probably never know.
Everybody gets their opinion.
Go out on a dirt road and grab a handful of front brake at about 20 MPH and you can collect you own data. It is easy to feel the front wheel skid and release and the marks in the dirt tell the tale. Yes, I have done this.

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post #44 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 9:05 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

Well I guess we'll just have to agree that I don't believe you.
I've been in ABS mode and don't recall any locking of the wheel.
I suppose it could happen, but locking the front wheel for any period of time is very bad. Besides, just because it skids doesn't mean it stops turning.
Not calling you a liar, just throwing out the BS flag.

In all fairness, it may depend on the type of ABS system (linked or non-linked) one has.


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post #45 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 9:20 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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Well I guess we'll just have to agree that I don't believe you.
I've been in ABS mode and don't recall any locking of the wheel.
I suppose it could happen, but locking the front wheel for any period of time is very bad. Besides, just because it skids doesn't mean it stops turning.
Not calling you a liar, just throwing out the BS flag.

In all fairness, it may depend on the type of ABS system (linked or non-linked) one has.
It is your prerogative to be wrong.

Whether the wheel locks or not is irrelevant. The question was pressure in the lines during ABS activation. The ABS rapidly modulates (aka pulses) the pressure in the wheel circuit. To do this requires rapid movement of the fluid which means acceleration and deceleration of the fluid. This will cause rapid and significant pressure excursions.

You are certainly free to believe what you want ... and remain ignorant.

https://www.google.com/patents/US6155653 Note comment about the fluid slamming into the actuation valves.

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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

My front tire on my 04 LT has skidded on dirt when the ABS was engaged.

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post #47 of 54 Old Nov 4th, 2014, 11:13 pm
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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It is your prerogative to be wrong.

Whether the wheel locks or not is irrelevant. The question was pressure in the lines during ABS activation. The ABS rapidly modulates (aka pulses) the pressure in the wheel circuit. To do this requires rapid movement of the fluid which means acceleration and deceleration of the fluid. This will cause rapid and significant pressure excursions.

You are certainly free to believe what you want ... and remain ignorant.

https://www.google.com/patents/US6155653 Note comment about the fluid slamming into the actuation valves.
Thank you for making my point. The patent you have referenced is the SOLUTION to your point of view on how ABS operates. The OLD systems operated (past tense) as you say. The new ones do not.

"Accordingly, the problems of the prior art is overcome by the present invention by providing a new and improved method of pump activation and a brake system for practicing the same."

Read your reference article carefully. Then come back on here and tell me about how modern ABS works. The newer systems modulate the pressure more smoothly to avoid the very issues that you indicate still plague ABS systems. While a tire may skid, it does not lock up. While the pressure is modulated, it no longer pulses as it once did in the earlier systems. There is no pulsing feedback in the pedal or lever because there is no longer any pulsing in the hydraulics. But as said earlier, we'll agree to disagree..........


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post #48 of 54 Old Nov 5th, 2014, 3:17 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

I think the gentleman (OP) has a good point. Report BMW to the Feds because of the risk related to running 13-14 y.o. brake lines.

I think we should report BMW because of the rapid tire failure associated with these bikes. I couldn't get a rear tire to last even one year let alone 13 years.

Haven't some of you had the original batteries go bad too?

Crap bikes! Sure wish I still had mine

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post #49 of 54 Old Nov 5th, 2014, 6:41 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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My front tire on my 04 LT has skidded on dirt when the ABS was engaged.
Likewise. I didn't measure the skid marks, but I estimate they were 2-3' long at 30 MPH. Given that 30 MPH = 44 ft/s, that is about a 50 ms skid, which seems reasonable for that generation of GPS. I assume the LT was a 16-bit system, or maybe even 8-bit, and they are quite a bit slower than the later 32-bit processors.

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post #50 of 54 Old Nov 5th, 2014, 6:55 am
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Re: Brake hose failure registry?

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Thank you for making my point. The patent you have referenced is the SOLUTION to your point of view on how ABS operates. The OLD systems operated (past tense) as you say. The new ones do not.

"Accordingly, the problems of the prior art is overcome by the present invention by providing a new and improved method of pump activation and a brake system for practicing the same."

Read your reference article carefully. Then come back on here and tell me about how modern ABS works. The newer systems modulate the pressure more smoothly to avoid the very issues that you indicate still plague ABS systems. While a tire may skid, it does not lock up. While the pressure is modulated, it no longer pulses as it once did in the earlier systems. There is no pulsing feedback in the pedal or lever because there is no longer any pulsing in the hydraulics. But as said earlier, we'll agree to disagree..........
You keep changing the topic to support your conclusion. That is your prerogative, but it introduces a different discussion each time. First, you changed from hose pressure to wheel locking. Now you are changing from older ABS to the latest systems. Keep in mind that patents often issue well in advance of the commercial product. Depends on the speed of the PTO section and the pace of the product development cycle.

I don't know the internal algorithms of the BMW system, but I have tested mine several times and can tell you it is a fairly crude system that definitely pulses the brakes significantly and will lock the wheel on dirt and even pavement. I suggested a method for you to test this yourself and I understand why you don't want to get the answer yourself.

Your call, and, yes, I am happy to agree to disagree.

And thanks for editing your post and removing the nasty comment. That certainly would have been in the "pot and kettle" category.

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