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post #1 of 17 Old May 24th, 2010, 9:16 am Thread Starter
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Oil Analysis

COPIED FROM AN OLD THREAD FROM THE PAST ----- Some cutting and Pasting
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrym
Pinnacle had no problem replacing it. As soon as they tore it down there was no question that it was bad. So there was no reason for them not to approve it. If they had replaced all the parts and labor it would have cost more than the complete rear drive. If I had not had the oil analysis I would have never known it was going bad.

There was no sign of any problem but Nebraska Machinery the company that did the testing said I had a problem and it would show up soon. The engine and transmission shown no wear and no action required. As long as I own a BMW I will have the oil analysis every 12,000 miles. It cost me $39.56 about what the oil and a filter cost. The gentleman that did my testing says now he has a guide to go by for the next test.

My 02 now has about 45,000 miles and I'm thinking it might be a good idea to do an oil analysis. Has anyone else done it and what were the results? Seems like cheap prevention before a long trip!

Dano
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post #2 of 17 Old May 24th, 2010, 9:35 am
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Re: Oil Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver
....My 02 now has about 45,000 miles and I'm thinking it might be a good idea to do an oil analysis. Has anyone else done it and what were the results? Seems like cheap prevention before a long trip!
There have been a couple/few posts about oil analysis in the past IIRC. I don't recall any significant data coming from those few posts.

Are you going to do all crankcase, tranny, and final drive?

Can you post a link to the thread you took your cut 'n paste from? I'd like to go back and read it.

It makes sense to me that you might get the earliest warning of a final drive failure if you were to consistently check the lube at changes but that is a relatively uninformed opinion. The mechanical professionals would have a better idea. Pretty scientifc stuff, quantitative and qualitative analysis of metals in the lube. I am curious to know more about it.

I just did a quick Google and read of some oil analysis info pages. Kinda complex. Effective monitoring seems to require a knowledge of the equipment and the lube being used. A one-time snapshot may suggest there too much metal in the lube if things are really going south, but early detection probably requires a data trail so that the most recent analysis can be compared to previous ones. And if the lube type has been changed it seems that that might alter things.
Guys like Saddleman, DavidS, and others might chime in here....

Last edited by CharlieVT; May 24th, 2010 at 9:43 am.
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post #3 of 17 Old May 24th, 2010, 1:10 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

I spend my life worrying about peace, world hunger, the fate of the universe. If I start wondering about the state of the oil in the crankcase of one of the pleasures in life, I think I will blow my brains out. Really, with so few oil related failures other than final drive, why bother. Perhaps when an engine reaches 200,000 miles it would be of interest, but otherwise, it seems a bit obsessive.
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post #4 of 17 Old May 24th, 2010, 1:13 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

This type of one shot analysis does not do a lot for you. Better to do one routinely so you can see trends in metal content. We did aircraft jet engines every 10 hours in the old days in the Navy, looking for changes in metal content so we knew what was wearing. All one now will do is give you a current "snapshot" of the oil condition in there right now. Now if you want to know if the oil is still good for X,XXX more miles it will tell you that.

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post #5 of 17 Old May 24th, 2010, 2:42 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

I'm an advocate of oil testing. It started with my two Harleys. I assumed I was doing the right thing by using what the indy's said was best (no names). My engines came back with astronomical copper and iron wear. Transmissions came back emulsified. I switched brands and all my levels came way under norms.
Just did my truck and two bikes. Truck, 101,000 miles (gasoline) came back with great numbers, and a recommendation that I extend oil change to 11,000 miles. Harley came back with positive for fuel dilution, so I know now to shorten the oil change interval until I can determine what's causing it. The BMW came back with great numbers too, with a recommendation to extend to 6,000 mile intervals. In the truck and BMW, I have piece of mind. In the Harley, I have a direction to look - also piece of mind, as I would not have know I had a problem without the analysis.
As far as the final drive? No, not really. Did it once, came back clean, opened it up and the cage was broken. I think it's like looking at the drain plug. If your timing is right, you'll get lucky, otherwise, it's a crap shoot.
For me, I'll continue to test, and as was stated, watch the patterns. I worry about my oil, but I'm willing to let the universe take care of itself.
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post #6 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 1:46 am
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Re: Oil Analysis

fpmlt, what company do you use for oil analysis? Thanks.

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post #7 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 10:56 am
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Re: Oil Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
I'm an advocate of oil testing. It started with my two Harleys. I assumed I was doing the right thing by using what the indy's said was best (no names). My engines came back with astronomical copper and iron wear. Transmissions came back emulsified. I switched brands and all my levels came way under norms.
Just did my truck and two bikes. Truck, 101,000 miles (gasoline) came back with great numbers, and a recommendation that I extend oil change to 11,000 miles. Harley came back with positive for fuel dilution, so I know now to shorten the oil change interval until I can determine what's causing it. The BMW came back with great numbers too, with a recommendation to extend to 6,000 mile intervals. In the truck and BMW, I have piece of mind. In the Harley, I have a direction to look - also piece of mind, as I would not have know I had a problem without the analysis.
As far as the final drive? No, not really. Did it once, came back clean, opened it up and the cage was broken. I think it's like looking at the drain plug. If your timing is right, you'll get lucky, otherwise, it's a crap shoot.
For me, I'll continue to test, and as was stated, watch the patterns. I worry about my oil, but I'm willing to let the universe take care of itself.
Based on your experience, Curtis and his repeated documentation, the only way a FD is
going to obtain a repeatable and maximum service life, is to check the preload on the drive, period.

I have always been intrigued since the HD days on oil analysis. It is where I truly got educated in oil, Synthetic, and wet or bathed clutches. Engine oil and wet clutches need different compositions to a point. Just as a air cooled needs (or can use) a different oil then a water cooled. Even down to composition of internal motor parts, bearings, and even cylinder type. It is why the dealers recommend 18-24,00 on these for Synthetic. At least mine did.

Your money has paid great dividends in finding fuel in the Harley. Is it a carb of FI? I am going "blindly through the night" and using strait Dino 20-50 in the motor, and Mobile1 in the FD and tranny. I am a bit curious at to what the Dow Corning M Gear Moly is doing in my tranny and, I would bite on 3 of these on the FD with the M Gear it has been running for 17,000 miles or so.

I would also think you got to do 1 or even 2 for a base and then a 3rd and 4th would tell the tale?

Thanks for sharing and I look forward to who you use also, Group Buy and collect some data?

Lee
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post #8 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 12:04 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Byron and Lee,
I almost hate to reply, for fear of starting an oil thread. So before we even get started, I'm not advocating any oil except the one you like best .
As it happens, I use Schaeffer Oil. Lee, I think we've talked about this before, but it has micron moly as part of its blend, which I REALLY like. They make a number of products, so it's pretty easy to find just what you might want to use. For example: I use their 5/50 full synthetic racing oil in the Harley. Before settling on that, I did a number of heat tests on that air cooled engine, and found that I experienced a 14 degree oil temp drop over anything else I tried. But, for the sake of argument, that's just what worked for me, in my bike, and the way I ride (whew).
I used their 15/40 full synthetic in my BMW, my Yamaha FZ1, my V10 truck and my tractor. I use their #167 75/140 gear oil in the tranny and FD of the BMW and the tranny in the HD. And finally I used their 239S 30w in the primary of the HD, and 239S 10w in the manual transmission of my PU.
And here's the most interesting part: the racing oil is their most expensive oil I use, and it's (if memory serves) about $5.25 a quart, delivered to my house. The 9000 series 14/40 is about $4.60 a quart, delivered to my house.
I get oil sample kits from them for $9 each, which I keep around the shop, and just fill and mail (they pay postage).
All seems pretty simple to me, but again, not advocating anything to anyone. It's just what I'm using, and hey, you asked
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post #9 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 12:36 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

My standard contribution to an oil thread:

"Popeye uses Olive Oil."

Yeah, I'm a pita, but I still think it's funny.
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post #10 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 1:03 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Yes Curtis, we're all laughing "with" you
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post #11 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 1:22 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Thanks Frank. BTW, I love oil threads, seriously. Go figure.

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post #12 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 2:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Oil Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
Byron and Lee,
I almost hate to reply, for fear of starting an oil thread. So before we even get started, I'm not advocating any oil except the one you like best .
As it happens, I use Schaeffer Oil. Lee, I think we've talked about this before, but it has micron moly as part of its blend, which I REALLY like. They make a number of products, so it's pretty easy to find just what you might want to use. For example: I use their 5/50 full synthetic racing oil in the Harley. Before settling on that, I did a number of heat tests on that air cooled engine, and found that I experienced a 14 degree oil temp drop over anything else I tried. But, for the sake of argument, that's just what worked for me, in my bike, and the way I ride (whew).
I used their 15/40 full synthetic in my BMW, my Yamaha FZ1, my V10 truck and my tractor. I use their #167 75/140 gear oil in the tranny and FD of the BMW and the tranny in the HD. And finally I used their 239S 30w in the primary of the HD, and 239S 10w in the manual transmission of my PU.
And here's the most interesting part: the racing oil is their most expensive oil I use, and it's (if memory serves) about $5.25 a quart, delivered to my house. The 9000 series 14/40 is about $4.60 a quart, delivered to my house.
I get oil sample kits from them for $9 each, which I keep around the shop, and just fill and mail (they pay postage).
All seems pretty simple to me, but again, not advocating anything to anyone. It's just what I'm using, and hey, you asked
Frank - Thanks for the good information. What type of results have you received from your oil samples? Seems like a pretty inexpensive test. Any changes?

Dano
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post #13 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 2:45 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Frank I know what you mean to mention an oil related product in a thread.

I am very interested in the cost and company's doing an oil analysis (hereby referred to as OA). While I don't see a lot of hope for it's use on a FD, I would like to see the motor and transmission OA over a period of time. Nikasil is some pretty bullet proof cylinder wall coating.

Curtis, Yep

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post #14 of 17 Old May 25th, 2010, 3:36 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Dan,
If I can get them uploaded, here's a example of the BMW's last test, and one on the HD engine. The bottom one is the first, and the top one would be the last. Just look though, and I think you'll understand what each is. They break it down into wear metals, then additives still remaining, then water, gas, suit etc. On the back of each sample is a guideline for what is considered normal, severe etc. The only thing they don't do is tell you how much fuel they're detecting. There's always fuel in the oil, so they'll tell you when it's too much.
Hope this helps a little.

Sunderland, I too enjoy reading about oils, just not when some clown starts getting pissed because you use something he doesn't like, or that you don't use what he's using: ie the best lube in the world.

Frank
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File Type: pdf Oil[5].pdf (36.1 KB, 68 views)
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post #15 of 17 Old May 26th, 2010, 12:20 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Hey Dan, I usually run far and fast from any "oil related" threads,
but oil analysis is something I know "a little" about.
One of the things I did for the St. Petersburg Times is oil analysis as a predictive maintenance program.
Each one of their 64 (one million dollar) printing presses use 24 gallons of oil each.

All machines have a certain amount of "wear particles" suspended in their oil.
To have success with an oil analysis program you first need to establish a baseline,
in other words what is the normal contaminant level of a certain type of oil with a certain amount of hours/miles.
To establish that you need to take several samples at the same interval " to see what is normal"

Then you can compare your latest analysis result with the previous or established baseline to see what has changed.

If for instance there is an increase in a certain metal, I would take another oil sample to confirm,
if it also came back with the same readings
then I would know there was a certain component starting to fail (possibly bearing or race etc)
and could schedule the repair rather than "wait for it to fail"

so in a large commercial application oil analysis can be invaluable.

On your motorcycle it isn't going to do much more than give you something else to worry about.


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post #16 of 17 Old May 26th, 2010, 1:01 pm
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Re: Oil Analysis

Frank, I must say that Hans voiced what I was thinking as I was reading the comments below the values found during your oil analysis. I think an oil analysis for me would be like waiting to get the results from an oncologist! Maybe not the smartest thing to not think about it but a quality name brand oil with high sales distribution and good reviews (or at least no reviews claiming their product smoked someones bike) would probably be the best thing for me. The old ostrich "head in the sand" thing I guess.

What I find interesting is the relatively few miles between changes if you sent the samples in at oil change time. If I'm reading correctly none of the oil changes went to 6,000 miles which is the recommended change interval for the LT.

Loren

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post #17 of 17 Old May 26th, 2010, 2:31 pm
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Talking Re: Oil Analysis

I have absolutely no argument against anyone who doesn't see the point of UOA. For me, however, I was able to see that the oil I was initially using in both my Harleys was clearly not doing the job. Loren, you mentioned using a brand name with good reviews, and I agree. But the oil that was tearing up my Harleys was Redline. Go figure.
Hans mentions keeping an eye on million dollar machines, and being able to schedule maintainance when UOA presents a problem. While none of my equipment is worth that much, it may as well for me. What I'm saying is that in the example of my Harley, I may well have saved a great deal of expense by switching brands, and at present I know to watch for a problem with fuel dilution. It may only be my riding habits, but now that I know there's a problem, I can take action before I have a major problem. And all for $9. Seems like a deal to me.
In the case of my Ford PU with 101,000 miles on it, I'm very comforted knowing that there is nothing "pending" in the failure department, and trust me when I say I just couldn't afford a major problem right now. Who could? Well, except for Curtis.
With regard to change interval, you are correct. UOA suggests I can go to 6,000 on the BMW, and I'm willing to bet that the next time I submit a sample, they'll tell me to go longer. And think about that, using your oil to its fullest extent. Not a bad idea. I'll likely never go that far, but should I need or want to, at least I KNOW what I can get away with.
Please, no argument here from me, this is just what I do, and I'm quite satisfied with it.
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