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post #1 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 7:52 pm Thread Starter
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Yet another FD failure

In the last week I started noticing an increasing howling noise that I initially attributed to tires. I had 14K on them so I went ahead and mounted a new set - it was due. The noise didn't go away so I drained the FD to check the magnet. I found a pretty good amount of silver slurry with noticeable flecks in it. I went ahead and pulled the FD - much easier than I thought - and after watching the video I tore into it.

I apparently caught it in the very early stages - no visible deterioration of the bearing but I do feel some roughness when I spin it by hand.

Here are the vitals I measured using the Dial Indicator method :

Shim thickness = 0.85mm
Gap W/O shim = 0.20" or 0.508mm

Preload = 0.850-0.508 = 0.342mm

Preload Spec = 0.05mm to 0.10mm

My calculations show I should have a shim of 0.60mm

Now for the question - am I safe buying that shim or do I really need to measure with the new bearing? I am assuming the spec on the bearing thickness is very tight.

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post #2 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 8:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Ok, on closer inspection under bright light I can see galling on some of the balls. This seems to fit the profile CharlieVT reports.

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post #3 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 8:14 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Send a PM for CharlieVT to confirm in case he misses your thread - I believe that you are right: the bearings are very accurate, the shims take out tolerances in the housing castings.

Robert in Northern NJ

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post #4 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 8:15 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Hiya Ralph,

You lost a decimal place when you reported a gap of 0.20" but we get it; your conversion of 0.508mm makes sense.

I'd really like to see that bearing, cut it open and take pics or send it to me? Is the retainer intact? You caught it before an oil leak, right?

If you calculate a preload of 0.60mm and you had 0.85mm in there, you were overshimmed by 0.25mm. That is consistent with what I have seen in failed crownwheel bearings.

BTW did you have two shims or just one? For 0.85mm I'm thinking you must have had a 0.70mm and a 0.15mm shim, yes?

I agree with you that for your observed gap you should have a 0.60mm shim. You might be okay preordering one. OTOH you might find a little difference between your old bearing and the new one. I'll gamble with your money , go for it and order the shim. If you get it right you'll save shipping or extra trip later to get a shim. A $13 gamble.

That is something I want to know too, will measuring the exiting bearing, which I understand is pretty much intact, give you a reliable measure for the new bearing? My assumption has been that you are correct, that the bearing specs are very tight; that's what the mech. engineers tell me. I'd like to know how yours works out.

Thanks for posting.




Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
In the last week I started noticing an increasing howling noise that I initially attributed to tires. I had 14K on them so I went ahead and mounted a new set - it was due. The noise didn't go away so I drained the FD to check the magnet. I found a pretty good amount of silver slurry with noticeable flecks in it. I went ahead and pulled the FD - much easier than I thought - and after watching the video I tore into it.

I apparently caught it in the very early stages - no visible deterioration of the bearing but I do feel some roughness when I spin it by hand.

Here are the vitals I measured using the Dial Indicator method :

Shim thickness = 0.85mm
Gap W/O shim = 0.20" or 0.508mm

Preload = 0.850-0.508 = 0.342mm

Preload Spec = 0.05mm to 0.10mm

My calculations show I should have a shim of 0.60mm

Now for the question - am I safe buying that shim or do I really need to measure with the new bearing? I am assuming the spec on the bearing thickness is very tight.
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post #5 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 8:24 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

I'm having a devil of a time getting my measurements, but it looks as though my current bearing should have been shimmed at .18 -. 22, or .2mm, but it's currently shimmed at .5.
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post #6 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 8:33 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Yep, the gap was 0.020". I did catch it before an oil leak. It looks to be in the very early stages. I just re-measured the shim, it is 0.80 mm.

After I get the new bearing and measure it I would be happy to send this one to you. PM me with an address.

The video was VERY helpful in disassembling the drive. The most time consuming part was grinding down the jaws on my 3 jaw puller to fit under the bearing.

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post #7 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 8:59 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
Yep, the gap was 0.020". I did catch it before an oil leak. It looks to be in the very early stages. I just re-measured the shim, it is 0.80 mm.

After I get the new bearing and measure it I would be happy to send this one to you. PM me with an address.

The video was VERY helpful in disassembling the drive. The most time consuming part was grinding down the jaws on my 3 jaw puller to fit under the bearing.
I just checked my inventory.... I've got 3 0.60mm shims. You can have one. PM'd you for address.
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post #8 of 36 Old May 9th, 2010, 11:34 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

I finally figured out that I was reefing way too hard on the crown wheel to get my measurement. It takes a very light touch.
I consistently got .05", or about .127 mm. Figuring in the .05 to .1 preload, my shim would likely require a .2 mm shim.
I measured my shim at .019", or .48mm - but likely a .5.
Assuming all this to be correct, I was overshimmed by .3 mm.

I was not able to get my bearing pulled, so I'll probably have the dealer do it when I go to get my parts. I'll get the new bearing seated, then measure, and order what ever shim I need.

Many thanks to Curtis through all this.
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post #9 of 36 Old May 10th, 2010, 6:28 am
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
I finally figured out that I was reefing way too hard on the crown wheel to get my measurement. It takes a very light touch.
I consistently got .05", or about .127 mm. Figuring in the .05 to .1 preload, my shim would likely require a .2 mm shim.
I measured my shim at .019", or .48mm - but likely a .5.
Assuming all this to be correct, I was overshimmed by .3 mm.

I was not able to get my bearing pulled, so I'll probably have the dealer do it when I go to get my parts. I'll get the new bearing seated, then measure, and order what ever shim I need.

Many thanks to Curtis through all this.
Yes, with the cover nice and warm with some drives it takes a very light touch. As a matter of fact in some cases with the cover warm the movement of the crownwheel assembly up and down can be done without the levers, just using fingers. Then as the cover cools, the resistance to movement increases and the levers become necessary. At that point, it may become more difficult to push the assembly back down fully. If the assembly doesn't fully seat, or come all the way up, obviously the observed gap will be measured as less than it acutally is. This is why it is important to make repeated measurements as the cover cools.

Local machine shop, automotive type, would probably pull bearing quicker and with less fuss than your BMW shop. That's were I'd go if I didn't have the tools.

Your measurement of a 0.05" gap is the smallest I've seen. Doesn't mean its wrong, but worth double checking. Not likely, but you are sure you don't have a second shim stuck in the bottom of the bearing seat in the cover? It would be a 0.15mm shim.

The shims rarely measure exactly at what the nominal thickness is. They are very often 0.02 or 0.03mm thicker or thinner than what the specification is. I have noticed this on new shims as well as old shims from failed drives. They make 'em like that; so much for German precision.
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post #10 of 36 Old May 10th, 2010, 6:50 am Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
I just checked my inventory.... I've got 3 0.60mm shims. You can have one. PM'd you for address.
Thank you for the offer, but I'm running up to Max BMW Tuesday morning for parts. I'm only 15 miles away and I'm planning on having this back together by the afternoon.

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post #11 of 36 Old May 10th, 2010, 11:11 am
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Curtis, I don't think there's any more shims in there, I cleaned it REAL well before sticking it in my wife's oven - self preservation. My son-in-law and I were going overboard with the measuring, he really enjoys learing, so gets into it big time. My bearing moved so freely that at one point, each of us would close our eyes and use only feel, while the other observed the dial. Consistently .05, probably 20 or more times. So we either read it right, or did it wrong a lot!!! It'll be interesting to see what the new bearing reads.
Should we be replacing the pilot bearing during all of this too?
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post #12 of 36 Old May 10th, 2010, 1:07 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
Curtis, I don't think there's any more shims in there, I cleaned it REAL well before sticking it in my wife's oven - self preservation. My son-in-law and I were going overboard with the measuring, he really enjoys learing, so gets into it big time. My bearing moved so freely that at one point, each of us would close our eyes and use only feel, while the other observed the dial. Consistently .05, probably 20 or more times. So we either read it right, or did it wrong a lot!!! It'll be interesting to see what the new bearing reads.
Should we be replacing the pilot bearing during all of this too?
Sounds good. I didn't think it was likely that you left a shim in there. Just thought I'd check with you on it. When all the shims are out you can see an oil channel at the base of the bearing seat.

Pivot bearings: very often are "notchy". Put a finger in the race and press in while turning the race, you may feel the "notchy-ness". If so, I'd replace 'em.
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post #13 of 36 Old May 10th, 2010, 5:06 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

I really wish there was a better way to measure as-assembled preload. Might it be possible to measure breakout torque (in the gear lash only) before the seal is installed? It would require an agreed-upon lube and would only work for new bearings (I think).

I hope your new bearing is the same as the old - but I wouldn't count on it.

Maybe a final shim from aluminum foil could be epoxied or Loctite'd to the case? The increment would be only about .0006 inches on the cheap foil I checked.

The range of shims available suggests pretty unnecessarily average manufacturing tolerances, which are so much easier to control now than they were say 25 years ago.
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post #14 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 1:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Well, my first FD rebuild is behind me. I just got back from a test ride and it's now smooth and QUIET again. I left Max BMW at 9:20, got home with the parts at 9:45 and was riding at 11:30.

I measured the thickness of the old and new bearings with a micrometer and they both read the same down to 0.0001" (1/10,000) or 0.003mm. I measured at several points on the bearings.

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post #15 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 1:59 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
Well, my first FD rebuild is behind me. I just got back from a test ride and it's now smooth and QUIET again. I left Max BMW at 9:20, got home with the parts at 9:45 and was riding at 11:30.

I measured the thickness of the old and new bearings with a micrometer and they both read the same down to 0.0001" (1/10,000) or 0.003mm. I measured at several points on the bearings.
Unhhhh...... you can't just measure the thickness of the bearing. There is axial movement between the inner and outer races that is measured when the bearing is mounted in place and measured using either DMAN's dial indicator method, or the BMW Service Manual depth micrometer method. So, I have to wonder, did you mount the bearing on the crownwheel assembly and go through the measurement process using the dial indicator, or just measure the bearing outer race thickness, find it to be the same as the old bearing and assemble it?
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post #16 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 2:05 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

I'm ready to do mine now. I have a very precisely cut screw driver - the tape is right on. I'll shove that into the gap between the bearing and the housing, mark it, then get a shim that meets that specific and precise gap. Should be PERFECT!!! (Hint Curtis, those are winks - check your leg for stretch marks)

Actually, I am on my way to get parts. Didn't you once mention that you liked the 19 ball unit better than the 17? NO WINKING, serious question.
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post #17 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 2:08 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Unhhhh...... you can't just measure the thickness of the bearing. There is axial movement between the inner and outer races that is measured when the bearing is mounted in place and measured using either DMAN's dial indicator method, or the BMW Service Manual depth micrometer method. So, I have to wonder, did you mount the bearing on the crownwheel assembly and go through the measurement process using the dial indicator, or just measure the bearing outer race thickness, find it to be the same as the old bearing and assemble it?
In the first post of this thread,he used the dial indicator method to verify the shim needed for the old bearing. If the new one is the same thickness,wouldn't the shim thickness be the same?

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post #18 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 2:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Right .... I did the measurement before I removed the original bearing and calculated the correct shim thickness. I wanted to verify that the new bearing was the same thickness which would make my calculation still valid.

I did measure both inner and outer races on both bearings. The bearings seem to be very consistent.

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post #19 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 2:49 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

But did you measure the internal axial clearance of the bearing? That would be the axial distance between the inner race on one side, and the outer racer on the other side. That is how the bearing's operating clearances or preloads are determined.

The race widths by themselves will be very accurate. It is the internal axial clearances that will vary - especially if the inner race is pressed or shrunk onto a shaft..
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post #20 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 3:46 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
I'm ready to do mine now. I have a very precisely cut screw driver - the tape is right on. I'll shove that into the gap between the bearing and the housing, mark it, then get a shim that meets that specific and precise gap. Should be PERFECT!!! (Hint Curtis, those are winks - check your leg for stretch marks)

Actually, I am on my way to get parts. Didn't you once mention that you liked the 19 ball unit better than the 17? NO WINKING, serious question.
No preference with respect to bearings. I've been using the German FAG 19 ball bearing in all my recent rebuilds. I am running the French 17 ball in my bike; for about 40Kmiles now.

Recently I tried a difference source and had a BMW dealership tell me there was a "new" bearing and they offered me the 17ball bearing for $130. I went back to my usual source of MaxBMW and got a German 19 ball for about $80.
Addendum: PLUS- I got the M&Ms!

Last edited by CharlieVT; May 11th, 2010 at 6:59 pm.
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post #21 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 6:47 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
Right .... I did the measurement before I removed the original bearing and calculated the correct shim thickness. I wanted to verify that the new bearing was the same thickness which would make my calculation still valid.

I did measure both inner and outer races on both bearings. The bearings seem to be very consistent.
But did you check the NEW bearing with the dial micrometer using the same technique you used to check the original bearing?
If not, you are making assumptions that may not be true.

What you fail to measure when you just measure race width is the axial play that is inherent in the bearing. That is a function of the grooves in the bearing and the balls, and the size of the races. The size (radius) of the races changes; when you install the bearing on the crownwheel assembly hub, you stretch it. When you press the outer race into the FD cover, you shrink it. These changes influence the axial movement of the inner race with respect to the outer race.

This is from the post made by a Niel, a mechanical engineer and he is making an important point: "The race widths by themselves will be very accurate. It is the internal axial clearances that will vary - especially if the inner race is pressed or shrunk onto a shaft.."

Just comparing the width of the races of old and new bearings you are not measuring the differences between the bearings. The bearings are probably pretty close to eachother, but from what you measured, you don't really know.

The right way to do it is to put the NEW bearing on the crownwheel assembly and do the measurements using the dial indicator method. Measuring the old one is interesting, academic, and gives us an indication as to how BMW set it up. But I wouldn't consider that measurement a reliable indicator of how to shim a different bearing. I wouldn't rebuild a drive without actually measuring the new bearing for preload. If I understand you correctly, I think you missed an opportunity to measure the new bearing.
Your set up may be close, or it may be dead on, but you don't really know.
If that were my drive, I'd take it apart again and measure the new bearing.

Last edited by CharlieVT; May 11th, 2010 at 7:34 pm.
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post #22 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMartin
In the first post of this thread,he used the dial indicator method to verify the shim needed for the old bearing. If the new one is the same thickness,wouldn't the shim thickness be the same?

dan
Hi Dan,
see post #21 in this thread.
Short answer: No, not necessarily, axial movement of the inner race WRT the outer race is not measured if you just "mic" the width of the races.

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post #23 of 36 Old May 11th, 2010, 9:06 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

That "new" bearing is purportedly an 18 ball bearing. I drove 130 miles to a BMW dealer that said he had everything I needed to put my bike together. When I got there, he had everything but the clutch and the crown bearing! WTF? He only mentioned that the bearing he ordered me was an 18 ball bearing.
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Cool Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
That "new" bearing is purportedly an 18 ball bearing. I drove 130 miles to a BMW dealer that said he had everything I needed to put my bike together. When I got there, he had everything but the clutch and the crown bearing! WTF? He only mentioned that the bearing he ordered me was an 18 ball bearing.
Frank, I'll bet you went to the Tigard dealer, right? We have not been at all happy with their Parts or Service departments on this side of the hill! Portland Motorcycle at least has experienced Parts people and a decent Service Mgr. Sorry if we didn't get the word out soon enough for ya.

John

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post #25 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 6:19 am
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
Right .... I did the measurement before I removed the original bearing and calculated the correct shim thickness. I wanted to verify that the new bearing was the same thickness which would make my calculation still valid.

I did measure both inner and outer races on both bearings. The bearings seem to be very consistent.
Ralph, some more thoughts this AM. Without actually measuring the new bearing, and relying on measurements from the old bearing you are probably pretty darn close. However, if the assumption that the new and old bearings are absolutely identical in all respects is correct (including those factors that influence axial movement, not just race width, but race groove dimensions: depth, profile, location in the race, etc.), since the old bearing had started to fail there may have been wear of the balls and races that would increase axial movement of that old bearing.
That would mean that having used measurements from the worn bearing, potentially your new bearing is slightly over-shimmed.

Would there have been more that 0.05mm wear in the failing bearing? (0.05mm being the threshold for going to a different shim thickness.) I don't know; it would be kind of nice to know.

If you're tired of fooling around with it, ride over here to the Deep South of Vermont we'll check your setup using both the dial indicator and the depth micrometer methods. It would take only a couple/few hours. Buy you lunch. In exchange I get your old bearing and a little more information about FDs. PM me if you're interested.

That would give you greater confidence in your setup and I'd get a little more data.

BTW: my private msg inbox on this site was full so anyone trying to send a PM got kicked back. Old msgs have now been trashed, so try again.
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post #26 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 6:31 am
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
That "new" bearing is purportedly an 18 ball bearing. I drove 130 miles to a BMW dealer that said he had everything I needed to put my bike together. When I got there, he had everything but the clutch and the crown bearing! WTF? He only mentioned that the bearing he ordered me was an 18 ball bearing.
Has anyone actually seen an 18 ball bearing?
I know of only two, the German 19 ball bearing that was the original fitment, and is now back in the supply system, and the French 17 ball bearing that was introduced with a different part number several years ago and is apparently still on the shelves of some dealerships. (Someone had posted that BMW of Lynchburg was discounting like Chicago and shipping fast so I tried them; they're the folks who had the "new" part # for crownwheel bearings, turned out to be a 17 ball bearing for $130. I went back to using MAXBMW online parts. No discounts, 19 ball bearing for $80. They're pretty close to me so the shipping time is short (your's maybe longer), but they always acknowledge the order by email, tell me what's in stock, and if they have to go to a regional warehouse or back to Germany, they tell me that too. And M&Ms with every order!

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post #27 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 9:42 am
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Talking Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Has anyone actually seen an 18 ball bearing?
(Snip) And M&Ms with every order!
OK Curtis, first off, I think you really are our FD Guru! And we really do appreciate all you do to educate those of us out here who do go through those said FD's.

But I keep seeing this comment about M&Ms. Does this mean if we stop by Max BMW we can grab a free snack?

John

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'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
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post #28 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 9:46 am Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFish
OK Curtis, first off, I think you really are our FD Guru! And we really do appreciate all you do to educate those of us out here who do go through those said FD's.

But I keep seeing this comment about M&Ms. Does this mean if we stop by Max BMW we can grab a free snack?

John
.... AND a fresh cup of coffee .... AND (In NH) meet Rose!

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post #29 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 10:20 am
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFish
OK Curtis, first off, I think you really are our FD Guru! And we really do appreciate all you do to educate those of us out here who do go through those said FD's.
But I keep seeing this comment about M&Ms. Does this mean if we stop by Max BMW we can grab a free snack?
John
Yeah, they toss a pack of M&Ms (regular, not peanut) in every parts shipment box. (Max Stratton told me he gets more emails about those M&Ms than about any other subject.

I haven't found the M&Ms when visiting the NY store, but they do have one of those single cup coffee brewing machines and it is free.

So if you ride through Troy, NY on your way to CCR stop in. Nice show room. Free coffee. And they're gonna have the new KLT on the showroom floor by then!
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post #30 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 12:51 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFish
OK Curtis, first off, I think you really are our FD Guru! And we really do appreciate all you do to educate those of us out here who do go through those said FD's.

But I keep seeing this comment about M&Ms. Does this mean if we stop by Max BMW we can grab a free snack?

John
+1 re: Mr. Guru.

Charlie, I thoroughly enjoy reading each of your well thought out posts. Don't understand much of it i.e. your axial with respect to your radial, cut the top out of the gammisflatcher so you can measure it with a dial indicator and caliper while it is chillin' in the freezer between cookings in your wifes oven...

But it is comforting to know there is someone out there who has a handle on the situation and is willing to take the time to theorize, hypothesize, measure the size, and then, most importantly, share the information with the rest of us.

Thank you again for your time and dedication,

Loren

WAK1200LT
Loren

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post #31 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 12:55 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Well thanks for the thanks you guys.
Really, this FD stuff is just a hobby, an entertainment that I sort of fell into.
But being helpful to folks who have been stranded, or are suffering insecurity about the FD of this fine motorcycle is rewarding too.
Thanks again!
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post #32 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 1:55 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFish
Frank, I'll bet you went to the Tigard dealer, right? We have not been at all happy with their Parts or Service departments on this side of the hill! Portland Motorcycle at least has experienced Parts people and a decent Service Mgr. Sorry if we didn't get the word out soon enough for ya.

John

Yes, it was BMW Western Oregon, but their Eugene store. E-mailed the owner, and no responce. Can't imagine why I'll ever do business there ever again. I'm so pissed I can't see straight. I'm tempted to make the drive again, dump all their shit back on the counter, get my money back and start over.
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post #33 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 8:49 pm
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Cool Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
Yes, it was BMW Western Oregon, but their Eugene store. E-mailed the owner, and no responce. Can't imagine why I'll ever do business there ever again. I'm so pissed I can't see straight. I'm tempted to make the drive again, dump all their shit back on the counter, get my money back and start over.
Well we haven't had too many dealings with the Eugene store, but the Tigard store has had some real problems in the past with Parts and Service. ErnieA had a real go round with them before last year's CCR and wasn't even sure if they were going to get stuff in time for him and Pauline to make it to the Rally!

The other day I was pricing front Brake pucks for my LT and the young girl who answered the phone asked if I had the actual part number! This for BMW OEM pucks for a 2000 LT! When I offered that I had not looked it up yet, but probably could, she asked if I had the VIN for my Bike. Well, I did manage to find it on my insurance card rather than having to go out to the garage and raise the seat on the Bike to read it. Then she said they did have them (for a ridiculous price!). When she quoted the price to me I said that is for the whole front? She said yep, it was for a set! I asked if this was for both front rotors and the line went silent for a moment. She then asked me to hold while she asked someone else! When she came back she admitted that I would actually need two sets of pucks. Duh, no s---!

Anyway, even though Tigard does sometimes undercut Portland Motorcycle on the price of parts, I can at least be talking to someone who understands the Bike and it's parts when I call Portland!

John

John & Marilyn Fisher
'00 K1200LTC "Katie"
'95 Triumph "Tigger"
'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
Hillsboro, Oregon

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post #34 of 36 Old May 12th, 2010, 9:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Ralph, some more thoughts this AM. Without actually measuring the new bearing, and relying on measurements from the old bearing you are probably pretty darn close. However, if the assumption that the new and old bearings are absolutely identical in all respects is correct (including those factors that influence axial movement, not just race width, but race groove dimensions: depth, profile, location in the race, etc.), since the old bearing had started to fail there may have been wear of the balls and races that would increase axial movement of that old bearing.
That would mean that having used measurements from the worn bearing, potentially your new bearing is slightly over-shimmed.

Would there have been more that 0.05mm wear in the failing bearing? (0.05mm being the threshold for going to a different shim thickness.) I don't know; it would be kind of nice to know.

If you're tired of fooling around with it, ride over here to the Deep South of Vermont we'll check your setup using both the dial indicator and the depth micrometer methods. It would take only a couple/few hours. Buy you lunch. In exchange I get your old bearing and a little more information about FDs. PM me if you're interested.

That would give you greater confidence in your setup and I'd get a little more data.

BTW: my private msg inbox on this site was full so anyone trying to send a PM got kicked back. Old msgs have now been trashed, so try again.
I've already re-measured the clearance with the new bearing installed. I got 0.016" (.406mm) - I shimmed at 0.50mm which gives me a preload of just under 0.1

2000 K1200LT - 94,000 mi. (49,000 mine since July 4th weekend, 2009)
BMW MOA 151654
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post #35 of 36 Old May 13th, 2010, 1:04 am
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Re: Yet another FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
I've already re-measured the clearance with the new bearing installed. I got 0.016" (.406mm) - I shimmed at 0.50mm which gives me a preload of just under 0.1
Thanks for the update.
Sounds like you are good to go

I appreciate the post and the data. The numbers do suggest my theory that the old bearing, having degraded to some extent, might have greater axial movement. From your first post:
[QUOTE] Here are the vitals I measured using the Dial Indicator method :
Shim thickness = 0.85mm
Gap W/O shim = 0.020" or 0.508mm
Preload = 0.850-0.508 = 0.342mm
Preload Spec = 0.05mm to 0.10mm
My calculations show I should have a shim of 0.60mm
[QUOTE]

So your observed gap with the original, failing bearing was 0.02" and the gap with the new bearing was 0.016". Your shim thickness calculated using the old bearing was 0.60mm and the shim thickness for the new bearing 0.50mm. Your original factory shimming was 0.85mm! If we assume that your new bearing and old bearing were identical (they may not have been) before the old bearing underwent wear/degradation then your original factory shimming over over shimmed by 0.85-0.50=0.35mm. Ouch! That's a pretty severe excess from what the mech. engineers tell me. More data to suggest that excess preload is a factor in these drives failing.
Thanks for posting and sharing your observations.
Here's hoping for many trouble free miles,
cheers!
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post #36 of 36 Old Jun 1st, 2010, 6:09 pm
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Re: Yet another FD failure

My thanks to rcoolbaugh for sending me his bearing.
Note that the history was "increasing howling noise" and "sliver slurry with noticeable flecks" on the drain magnet.

Attached are pics of the bearing races and retainer with balls.
The retainer was intact, I cut it to remove it from the inner race.
The outer race has spalling present which is concentrated more on one side of the groove and more on one side of the circumference of the race. The concentration of spalling on one side of the groove is consistent with excess preload, and the concentration of spalling on one area of the outer race is consistent with the weight of the bike loading that area more.

The inner race has less severe spalling but is distributed more evenly around the race.

Some of the ball are severely spalled, some show slight to moderate spalling, others appear pretty normal to the naked eye.

Note that according to rcoolbaugh's calculations this bearing had somewhere between 0.25 and 0.35mm too much preload, depending on how you interpret his measurements.

Roughness of wheel rotation and shiney particles on the drain plug identified this failing final drive before retainer failure and oil seal tearing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
In the last week I started noticing an increasing howling noise that I initially attributed to tires. I had 14K on them so I went ahead and mounted a new set - it was due. The noise didn't go away so I drained the FD to check the magnet. I found a pretty good amount of silver slurry with noticeable flecks in it. I went ahead and pulled the FD - much easier than I thought - and after watching the video I tore into it.

I apparently caught it in the very early stages - no visible deterioration of the bearing but I do feel some roughness when I spin it by hand.

Here are the vitals I measured using the Dial Indicator method :

Shim thickness = 0.85mm
Gap W/O shim = 0.20" or 0.508mm

Preload = 0.850-0.508 = 0.342mm

Preload Spec = 0.05mm to 0.10mm

My calculations show I should have a shim of 0.60mm

Now for the question - am I safe buying that shim or do I really need to measure with the new bearing? I am assuming the spec on the bearing thickness is very tight.
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