07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2010, 6:48 am Thread Starter
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07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

I have an 07 LT with 30,000 miles that hasn't started for 4 months now. I tried starting it one morning and it would crank but wouldn't turnover. It sounded a bit weak and reluctantly I replaced the battery. That didn't work. After further investigation I found water in the fuel tank. I thought this has to be the source of all my problems. To make a long story short, the fuel system has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by me, a local mechanic, and a BMW mechanic. The dealership, who's had the bike for a month now, tells me the bike is classified as a PUMA case. Which means they have no clue what the problem is and have to contact BMW directly. Which they did about two weeks ago and even with all the help directly from BMW themselves it still won't start.

I'm not looking for repair suggestions here - I gave up on that when I handed it over to the dealer. What I would like to know is if anyone else has had a similar sort of experience. I'm assuming this has to be a warranty case now, right? (It better be, the dealer mechanic has already put in 45 hours. Can you imagine the bill?) Also, assuming they can't get it started, how long can attempted repairs go on? Is there any chance BMW would replace the bike?
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post #2 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2010, 9:24 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

it SHOULD be a warranty case, unless it was bought Jan - Apr in 07. If the 36 months aren't over yet let the dealer put in as many hours as they need to.

At the same time, I doubt BMW will be buying the bike back unless they really can't get it to work for months.
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post #3 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2010, 10:51 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

If it's still under warranty, you may want to check out lemon laws for the state of PA. In some states, if you haven't had use of the vehicle for a stated number of days, it is considered a lemon and the mfg. must purchase it back from you.

Mmm...just checked PA law and motorcycles are specifically excluded from the state's lemon law qualifications. Looks like it will be between you, the dealer and BMW.

Good luck.

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post #4 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2010, 11:46 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

I too had crank but no start issues.

See my thread which appears at the bottom of the page as a related thread titled "Ignition or fuel problem, No Start".

I had spark, fuel pressure but no run.

When I removed the fuel injection rail and re-installed it so the nozzels spray could be observed I had 3 out of 4 working (good spray pattern).

Why it didn't start and run, through badly, I don't know.

I removed the non-spraying nozzel for cleaning and while doing so dropped it .

It OHM'd out OK and after dropping sprayed fine.

Put it in, started right up and I never looked back.

My motorcycle Rabbi swears by Chevron Techron for FI systems. I use it every chance I can.

Good luck
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post #5 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2010, 11:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Seems like I need a Rabbi.

That's unfortunate about PA's motorcycle exemption for the lemon law. How does that make any sense?

In the mean time, I called BMW customer service and talked to a manager. I told him my story and said I wanted a new motorcycle. Surprisingly, he didn't say no immediately. He said he would call the service manager and get back to me. At the very least, I suspect they might give the overworked mechanic some sort of assistance.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
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post #6 of 30 Old Apr 16th, 2010, 10:40 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Good luck. I hope they don't point at the water in the tank, and try to pin this on you!

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post #7 of 30 Old Apr 16th, 2010, 4:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridinredfox
I too had crank but no start issues.

My motorcycle Rabbi swears by Chevron Techron for FI systems. I use it every chance I can.
Are you suggesting the only way to fix my bike is to get my penis cut!?!

Well, I guess it could be worse.
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post #8 of 30 Old Apr 16th, 2010, 5:29 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Old school thought process says air, fuel (quantity), and spark (timing). Try cranking her over while you spray a little WD40 in the intake and see if she fires. If so, it's probably a fuel issue or the controller for the fuel injection system. No start on the WD40? Check for spark/timing. Hopefully they have tried all this. If not try it yourself before you dump her in the river. You may just need a new mechanic or second opinion.

Last edited by deanwoolsey; Apr 16th, 2010 at 5:34 pm.
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post #9 of 30 Old Apr 16th, 2010, 8:50 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
... Try cranking her over while you spray a little WD40 in the intake and see if she fires. ....
Dean, my understanding is that OP's bike is at the dealer's.

If so, the matter of technical investigation is out of his hands. He either needs to recover his bike (conceivably giving up on warranty) and try the approaches you suggest or continue and hope for the best with BMW.

Of course, your advice is very sound. I just cannot believe that a dealership would say "Ooops, the bike does not fire, we don't know what to do". Can you imagine your car mechanic saying that?

I am getting an impression that for some reasons the dealership is not really getting into the repair. I cannot believe that the dealer's mechanic put in 45 hours of work (that's some $6,000!), as they told alucente. Within that time, they could have replaced every component twice. That is ridiculous. Remember the expression "Wall Job"? I was on the receiving end of a few of those with my cars, I recognize the sickening feeling. My guess is that either they do not have the time or the in-house expertise or do not have replacement parts to substitute. After all, a modern fuel-injected engine is not exactly rocket science. And the K-motor is not really an exotic high-performance power plant.

Since he is stuck now, I think that the best route for alucente is now to be on the phone every other day with BMW NA, complaining and demanding an explanation why the problem is not corrected and why it is taking so long. Even if they tell him "don't call us, we'll call you", he should be on the ball non-stop. You know, it is the squeaky wheel principle. Complain and annoy them enough and they will fix it just to get rid of you.

I know someone who had a problem with an Audi car, that could not be resolved over prolonged time. Admittedly, it was a transmission performance gremlin, an intermittent driveability issue apparent only at specific conditions. After the dealership and Audi gave up, my acquaintance received keys to another car of same vintage, with apologies about a different body color. True story! They still have that A6. The dealer just wanted to get rid of his wife calling them and nagging (and she is very good that way... ). Food for thought.

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Last edited by rdwalker; Apr 16th, 2010 at 9:08 pm.
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post #10 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 12:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

They're telling me the fuel pump is bad because of the ethanol that is now in the gas.

Does that make sense?

Worse part, they tell me, there are no fuel pumps to be had.

Does that make sense?
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post #11 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 12:24 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by alucente
They're telling me the fuel pump is bad because of the ethanol that is now in the gas.

Does that make sense?

Worse part, they tell me, there are no fuel pumps to be had.

Does that make sense?
We have up to 10% ethanol in our gas. I have been running low test with ethanol for years on my 99LT with no problems, When I am fully loaded and pulling a trailer every other tank full is hightest.

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post #12 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 1:23 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

I can only wholeheartedly agree with calling them on a every other day basis. As long as you do not use the word attorney BMW will talk to you after you are going on their nerves long enough they will find a solution. The moment you use threats in terms of the legal system though they WILL SHUT DOWN.

Anyway, call the dealer, call BMW NA, and another tip is to start going up the food chain. Be as polite as possible and as calm as possible, even though this may be problematic at times, but you will get fast to a solution if you have a very polite chat with folks higher up the food chain.

At least that was what helped me back in 2007 when BMW repurchased the bike I had as a clear lemon.
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post #13 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 2:25 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

In the past, I've had success in disputes with companies by writing a personal letter to the CEO/President and detailing the issues I've had with getting a complaint resolved.

To that end, here is the information for BMW Motorrad USA:

Pieter de Waal- Vice President
BMW of North America, LLC
300 Chestnut Ridge Road
Woodcliff Lake, NJ 07675

Make the letter courteous, state the facts and detail any history you may have as a customer of BMW (even as a first customer if that is the case). I would be pretty surprised if you didn't get a quick, effective response.

Good luck.

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post #14 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 3:17 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by pickerbiker
... Make the letter courteous, state the facts and detail any history you may have as a customer of BMW (even as a first customer if that is the case). I would be pretty surprised if you didn't get a quick, effective response. ... Good luck.
+1 on that. And do not neglect to indicate the fact that in many states, all gasoline fuel is required to contain ethanol as the oxygenating agent since MTBE is banned. Here in the Northeast, I do not even recall seeing non-alcohol gasoline anymore (we are talking about the 10% additive, of course, not the full-on ethanol fuels, like E90).

I cannot find it right now, but a while back I wrote to BMW NA on their position about alcohol additives and they replied that standard 10% fuel does not void any warranties.

I did post it here in the past. I'll look for it here and in my Outlook archives.

Edit: I found it! Here it is, from the horse's mouth. Received Tue 7/14/2009 3:10 PM.

Dear Mr. Walker

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA. We appreciate your inquiry.

BMW approves fuels with an ethanol content of up to 10%. Above that level, drivability, and starting and stalling problems (especially under high temperatures or altitudes) will occur. Ethanol, as an oxygenate, causes excessive leaning of the fuel/air mixture. Extremely lean mixtures cause excessive prolonged combustion temperatures which will lead to engine damage like burned valves, plugs, etc.

We hope this fully addresses your inquiry. If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117. Our office hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time.

Regards,

Nate Galmish
BMW Motorrad USA

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Last edited by rdwalker; Apr 26th, 2010 at 3:55 pm.
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post #15 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 3:30 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

The fuel pump can go bad because of excess alcohol in the fuel. This would apply if you ran E85, E50, etc. as opposed to the standard E10 (gasohol). Ten percent alcohol is pretty common and the LT should run it with no issues. However if you ran a couple of tanks through it that were above ten percent it can cause issues. Flex-fuel vehicles have stainless steel fuel injection components and alcohol resistant hoses which the LT does not. Once you exceed the standard ten percent then corrosion, seal failure, and rubber degradation will set in. Have you run any E85, E50, or E35 in it? I suppose it's possible you got a big tank of E85 by accident. I personally saw a whole fleet of police cars that got dosed with diesel fuel instead of unleaded gasoline once. Most of them still ran but a couple had to have the fuel systems flushed. Mistakes happen. I'm curious how the water you mentioned got in the fuel. There was plainly a contamination issue at some point.
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post #16 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 5:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
I'm curious how the water you mentioned got in the fuel. There was plainly a contamination issue at some point.
That, unfortunately, remains a mystery. My last ride was on a rainy day but the tank overflow pan drain hose was working as expected - first thing I checked when I found the water. I did fill up that day so the only explanation I have is that I got a bad tank of gas.

To my knowledge I never filled up with anything over E10.

I think I'll call customer service again.
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post #17 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 7:29 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

If you found water in your tank I would say that was the first problem. I am sure drained and Sea Foam or other gas drier/additive with a fresh tank of gas?

Freshly charged battery while trying to start it.

Then on to the fuel system you said? Could or did you verifi gas pump was working? I know I have seen a few no starts on here where a small hose in the fuel tank splits and while the pump works it will not draw enough gas. I am sure someone will chime in on which hose it is as I have never dealt with it. I have read it more then once though, and know it is often overlooked by the best of them.

I guess onto the fuel rail from there? I would want to see in line fuel pressure. Of course connections to injectors. Are they fused and to what circuet?

Heck anybody's guess. After 4 months of sitting and I am not sure where or how it was stored, you could be fighting a completely different issue from simply water in your gas.

Any critters been to it?

I mean if you can verifi you got spark and enough fuel pressure, and the injectors are cyceling, it has to be some where else?

ECU?

I don't think you are going to get a new bike but stranger things have happened. After 4 months I would be ballistic but the old adage about fly's and honey only makes sense here. BMW does not move at our pace and I have read many successful outcomes but it took awhile and reasonable dialog.

In my book 4 weeks would be too long let alone 4 months!

I hope you get it resolved.

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post #18 of 30 Old Apr 26th, 2010, 9:48 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

The tank and fuel system was drained and dry gas was added.
New battery installed.
Fuel pump verified as working
Verified no cracked hoses in the fuel pump assembly
Spark verified.
Don't know myself what the fuel line pressure should be but it seemed to be a lot to me.
Verified injectors are clean and working.
Stored in a warm (50 F) critter free garage.
ECU not verified.

Now I'm just waiting for the replacement fuel pump but there are none in the US and they are checking to see if BMW has any in stock.
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post #19 of 30 Old Apr 27th, 2010, 12:23 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Bit of sugar in gas tank will do that to engine

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post #20 of 30 Old Apr 27th, 2010, 9:58 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Magnuson Moss time.
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post #21 of 30 Old Apr 28th, 2010, 7:10 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

I am from the Bucks County northern Philly suburbs and I have found that there is a real problem in this area with this new ethanol fuel. A buddy of mine had 80 gallons of fuel separate on his boat over a two month period in a sealed tank. The carbs had to be rebuilt due to a jelly like substance inside even though he used stabil (the red stuff) My rider mower hoses all got hard within the last year and one snapped in my hand. The mower kept stalling and coughing and wouldn't run unless choked. My weed wacker had the same results. Thankfully my Lt has been ok. My buddy's Gold wing which had been sitting for the last three months would start then stall. It would not idle or run smooth.

A local motorcycle shop put me onto a product called Star tron Starbrite. I tried it in my mower and after about five minutes of running it stopped stalling and ran smooth with choke off. I also put it in my Buddy's Gold wing and again after about five minutes of running it ran smooth and idle was perfect. Stabil is also putting out an ethanol additive (dark green in color, marine). I have not tried this stabil but it supposedly does the same thing. I plan on running the star brite in the Lt all the time.
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post #22 of 30 Old Apr 28th, 2010, 7:31 pm
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Exclamation Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by alucente
The tank and fuel system was drained and dry gas was added.
New battery installed.
Fuel pump verified as working
Verified no cracked hoses in the fuel pump assembly
Spark verified.
Don't know myself what the fuel line pressure should be but it seemed to be a lot to me.
Verified injectors are clean and working.
Stored in a warm (50 F) critter free garage.
ECU not verified.

Now I'm just waiting for the replacement fuel pump but there are none in the US and they are checking to see if BMW has any in stock.
Tony, please let us know the outcome of this abnormal situation.....

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post #23 of 30 Old Apr 28th, 2010, 7:35 pm
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Thumbs down Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by alucente
The tank and fuel system was drained and dry gas was added.
Now I'm just waiting for the replacement fuel pump but there are none in the US and they are checking to see if BMW has any in stock.
This is beyond rediculous.
Dealer is not providing acceptable service and I'm sure BMWNA would agree.
Check part numbers and insist they pull a pump out of a bike in the showroom if they match.
Check Beemerboneyard or Re-Psycle BMW Parts.
Summer will be over and no bike at this rate.

Doug Holck
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but when I do I prefer BMW's.
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post #24 of 30 Old Apr 28th, 2010, 9:54 pm Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Pump arrived from Germany today. Bike goes on the lift tomorrow. We'll see if that does it or not.
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post #25 of 30 Old Apr 29th, 2010, 12:37 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

I know of one shop that ran into a simular problem, rebuilt the engine and fuel delivery system with no success, last they sent the fuel in for a test and found 30 percent diesel in the fuel, one would think that would be the first thing to check especially if suspect water and sitting around for awhile...good luck on your ride....matthew
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post #26 of 30 Old Apr 29th, 2010, 10:49 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

I work in a new car dealer, Honda master tech, we find a large percentage of newer cars with no start or poor running conditions are due to contamanated or bad fuel.. A quick test here is to substute a different fuel sorce, I use a small LP gas bottle with valve and
hose to feed LP gas into air intake while cranking if motor starts or at least trys to start
you know the ign is working, whth a little practice you can get the motor to run very near normal . also we have a metal cly used for injector flushes that you fill with fresh fuel or flush solution it hooks up to the fuel line going to the injectors it is presserised with a regulated air sorce say 45 50 psi to similate your fuel pump pressure. you would feed this fuel into the fuel rail/ injectors for only 2 to 5 sec to rinse out the fuel rail ,this returns back to your fuet tank if still hooked up, then pinch this return hose closed you should now have fresh fuel at a operational pressure supplyed to fuel rail and injectors crank bike to see if it starts and runs, if it does run then your problem is in fuel supply, pump ect. if it still doesn't start you need to verify voltage and groung signal to and at injectors, tool needed is a noid light a small light that pluges in to injestor harness inplace of the injector if it flashes while cranking motor the pluse should be ok the if still not running look at the injector for contamination, and don't over look that bad fuel could ruin your spark plugs in just afew minutes,, make sure they are clean and not black. u-turn
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post #27 of 30 Old May 5th, 2010, 7:29 am Thread Starter
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

It Lives!

I got a call Saturday that they got it started after installing the new fuel pump.

I was a bit surprised because the original pump was working but, apparently, not well enough. The mechanic told me a while ago that he saw the pump working, as did I, and that the spray from the injectors looked fine. He also said he measured the pressure of the fuel lines but that the service manual didn't indicate what the pressure should be. (Really?) I think without a reference point for him to check against he concluded, like me, that the pump was working sufficiently.

They're keeping it a few days longer for testing because after having it for 2 months they probably never want to see it again. I don't blame them.

Thanks for all the support!
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post #28 of 30 Old May 5th, 2010, 8:37 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Fuel rail pressure is normally just above 50 PSI which is controlled by the pressure regulator on the rail. All modern FI systems work this way, as far as I know. Therefore, the line pressure from the pump will measure the same since the two are connected in series. I would think the pump is capable of higher pressures, but you would have to bypass the regulator to measure that which is a bad idea in my opinion. Run a little fuel injector cleaner through her on the next few tanks just to be sure and always put fuel stabilizer in the tank through the winter. Glad you got her going again.

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post #29 of 30 Old May 5th, 2010, 8:02 pm
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by alucente
It Lives!

He also said he measured the pressure of the fuel lines but that the service manual didn't indicate what the pressure should be. (Really?) I think without a reference point for him to check against he concluded, like me, that the pump was working sufficiently.
Glad you are getting close but it may be time to find a better dealer as the BMW factory 05 manual states a 3.5 Bar (50.7 psi) specification for fuel pressure. I would be curious as to what he measured.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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jzeiler is offline  
post #30 of 30 Old May 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
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Re: 07 LT won't start even after 4 months of working on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by alucente
It Lives!

I got a call Saturday that they got it started after installing the new fuel pump.

I was a bit surprised because the original pump was working but, apparently, not well enough. The mechanic told me a while ago that he saw the pump working, as did I, and that the spray from the injectors looked fine. He also said he measured the pressure of the fuel lines but that the service manual didn't indicate what the pressure should be. (Really?) I think without a reference point for him to check against he concluded, like me, that the pump was working sufficiently.

They're keeping it a few days longer for testing because after having it for 2 months they probably never want to see it again. I don't blame them.

Thanks for all the support!
Just in time for your riding season!!

2013 BMW Damask Red K1600GTL
2014 BMW K1600GTL-E EXCLUSIVE
2001 Honda C-250 Helix
SOLD 2006 BMW K-1200LT "The Manatee"

Smokin'


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