Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 5:00 pm Thread Starter
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Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Just wondering....I have the bike apart to replace the shocks. Since its got all those parts off it would be easy to replace the fuel filter, but my questions is, Why? Do they they ever fail?
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post #2 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 5:06 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Yes, they can fail.............Yes, it could save you a hassle..........But hey, I'm sort of one of those guys that just thinks fresh maintenance items just make the bike run better.........and I'm also one of those guys that likes to tinker..................$ .02................
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post #3 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 5:12 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

fuel filter failure on all k-bikes is a frequently observed condition - there's a very good reason your maintenence schedule calls for the filter to be changed out every 24,000 miles.

the failure mode is kinda gnarly, too - if the filter has absorbed enough water or other contaminants from the fuel, it will stop being able to flow enough fuel for the bike to run - first it will lean out at full throttle, then it will stall at idle, and if its serious enough, you will walk wherever you're going.

change the filter. routinely.

g.

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post #4 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 5:19 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Your fuel filter is a throw away item. It collects any sediment in the fuel. If you never change it, eventually it will plug up and starve your engine of fuel. A fuel filter failure would be more like it not filtering the contaminants out, and letting any debris continue into the engine.
You are right. You're there, so you should change it and anything else, like maybe the air filter
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post #5 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 5:55 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

It could happen, I had one fail (not on a K12LT)
back in 1996 my fuel filter split on a brand new (under 500 miles)
K1100LT Those filters are a lot easier to get at.
I think it's a good idea to go ahead and change it while you're right there,
but I don't agree with the two previous poster that it's a frequent or certain item to fail,
I personally know of several bikes that went 60 and 80 thousand miles without fuel filter changes.
With no problems.

So you might ask yourself (with my best Dirty Harry voice)
do you feel lucky,....well do ya ....


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post #6 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 6:01 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

I drive around with my head in the tank hoping to see exactly this!

Ghaison (Jason)
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2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
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post #7 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 6:02 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

What I'm confused about is why are beemers different from bimmers?? My riding buddy(K12lt and now a R12rt) is an independent foreign car mechanic(mostly BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) told me he can't remember the last time a car came in with fuel filter problems. His theory is the filtering at the pump and careful handling during transport result in a cleaner product in your tank.

FYI my '67 Cessna with 39 gallons on each side has only a coarse fuel screen in the carburetor and a sediment bowl at the lowest point of the fuel system. Pre-flight is a matter of draining a bit of fuel to double check for water (most common if old,leaky, fuel caps and the aircraft has been sitting outside in the rain). I don't know about the newer fuel injected Cessna's, may be lacking a fuel filter also.

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post #8 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 7:17 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

I belive it is called for every 12,000.

I will do it every 24,000 I think. It was not bad at all on the 12,000 and I wanted to replace the inside outside clamps and install QD's at the same time.

I ran gas, swirled, tapped both ends over fresh white shop towels and very little to see even with a jewlers glass.

Guess just luck on my gas choices. Never fill up where a truck is dumping gas, or in pouring rain, unless you can't help it of course.

And the rain is not so much an issue in large, newly built Sheetz and such. Older stations filler caps are not the most water tight things, and a lot of times the fills are sunk with no drainage, bad news in a rain storm.

Air filter was clean also. I used a K&N and will clean and reoil every 24,000 with the fuel filter.

It is also a good time for washing and cleaning and inspecting things you dont get to see very often. Well, hopefully

Lee
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post #9 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 7:58 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

It's cheap enough and easy enough since you've already got all the bits off I'd just change it out for insurance.

Do replace the two clamps though, as if one of those slips off under pressure the bike won't run, even with a full tank. BTDT, less than 10 miles after a service (where I though the old clamps were "good enough"), had to call my buddy to bring his trailer . . .

BTW, the newer Slant/4 Beemers don't have a separate fuel filter, just an inlet screen.

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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #10 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 8:51 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beartooth
What I'm confused about is why are beemers different from bimmers?? My riding buddy(K12lt and now a R12rt) is an independent foreign car mechanic(mostly BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) told me he can't remember the last time a car came in with fuel filter problems. His theory is the filtering at the pump and careful handling during transport result in a cleaner product in your tank.


Bruce,
FWIW My Lincoln MK VIII would not start one day and I traced it to a clogged fuel filter. It took a while to find the issue because "they never go bad". Now I have a fuel pressure guage.

John
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #11 of 33 Old Feb 5th, 2010, 9:11 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

K&N Filters hmmmmmm???

Check this link

Don't be fooled by the hype over efficiency.

You are sacrificing the filtering ability of a filter to get sound,
not worth it in my mind.




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post #12 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 12:59 am
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick
K&N Filters hmmmmmm???

Check this link

Don't be fooled by the hype over efficiency.

You are sacrificing the filtering ability of a filter to get sound,
not worth it in my mind.



Well I don't doubt that more air in means more dust in.... nevertheless more air is in....the same air I breath.......

Secondly I'm interested to see if the added flow in will match up with the added flow out made possible by my Remus exhaust.....

Ghaison (Jason)
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2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
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post #13 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 9:50 am
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

[QUOTE=atrovarious]Well I don't doubt that more air in means more dust in.... nevertheless more air is in....the same air I breath.......QUOTE]

Point is not the volume of air "in" but the amount of "chit" going beyond
the filtering abilities of the K&N filter itself....next stop your internal components
of your engine. I know there are alot of advocates of these filters, but the question
I have is....When do u know that it is not being effective in its function?

Much like a fuel or water filter, what is the indicator that alerts u that,
particulates, bacteria, etc. are now passing through.

Over time these do in fact add up to significant amounts that may or may not
affect your engines efficiency, wear, performance, life span, etc. But I am betting
it does no good to have it pass through.

I guess I just don't get it, for the meager HP increase on bike with 152HP already
I find it easier to just huck out the old paper one and replace it on a regular basis.

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post #14 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 9:50 am
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
Well I don't doubt that more air in means more dust in.... nevertheless more air is in....the same air I breath.......

Secondly I'm interested to see if the added flow in will match up with the added flow out made possible by my Remus exhaust.....
Not going to debate a K&N but use them in every car, truck, bike I have owned over the last 15 years with no issues. They are made to work better as the oil attracts dirt, period. And in the LT it is work to get it in and it seals VERY tight. Tighter seal then OEM for sure.

No worries on the K&N.

If you don't know when the fuel filter was changed last, then I would change it and the internal and external clamps as I said. There are two sizes and Beemer Bone Yard can fix you up on both sizes in fuel injection clamps. After that 24,000 would do IMHO.

Lee
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post #15 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 10:07 am
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick
K&N Filters hmmmmmm???

Check this link

Don't be fooled by the hype over efficiency.

You are sacrificing the filtering ability of a filter to get sound,
not worth it in my mind.



I completely clogged BOTH K&N air filters in my Mercedes with sand and dust several years ago while driving through a nasty sandstorm at the California border. There was no place to hide and pulling off and waiting it out was not an option since it continued all day long due to a persistent pressure gradient including 60 mph gusts. It did $10K in cosmetic damage to the exterior - really trashed it.

Here's the stuff the K&N's kept OUT of the engine - the other side of the air box was as clean as a whistle.

Needless to say, I'm a fan of oiled air filters... especially in dusty environments.
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post #16 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 10:36 am
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
I completely clogged BOTH K&N air filters in my Mercedes with sand and dust several years ago while driving through a nasty sandstorm at the California border. There was no place to hide and pulling off and waiting it out was not an option since it continued all day long due to a persistent pressure gradient including 60 mph gusts. It did $10K in cosmetic damage to the exterior - really trashed it.

Here's the stuff the K&N's kept OUT of the engine - the other side of the air box was as clean as a whistle.

Needless to say, I'm a fan of oiled air filters... especially in dusty environments.
Utt Ohh, real world experience with documented proof versus a "written article". Uhh must be a placebo effect

Lee
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post #17 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 12:00 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF
Not going to debate a K&N but use them in every car, truck, bike I have owned over the last 15 years with no issues. They are made to work better as the oil attracts dirt, period. And in the LT it is work to get it in and it seals VERY tight. Tighter seal then OEM for sure.

No worries on the K&N.

If you don't know when the fuel filter was changed last, then I would change it and the internal and external clamps as I said. There are two sizes and Beemer Bone Yard can fix you up on both sizes in fuel injection clamps. After that 24,000 would do IMHO.
Likewise.... never put one on a bike yet but that's because I don't remember ever changing an air filter on a bike.... not that I haven't .... just don't remember it.

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post #18 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 12:37 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Took our son to freshman year of college in Denver, CO in our 36' flat nose motorhome. Coming home it "missed" a couple times going up the continental divide. Nothing really serious but it was noticeable. No issues until I got 5 miles from Mountain Home, ID where with a headwind top speed had been reduced to 20 mph. This was a 460 Ford which didn't slow down for much. Pulled off the freeway and parked against the shady side of the WalMart store, dropped the electric levelers on the left side to jack it up and installed my emergency replacement filter. Took less than 10 minutes. Could not blow through filter it was so tightly plugged.

Now, the motorhome had nearly 30,000 miles at the time and at 5mpg average it had consumed nearly 6000 gallons of fuel which would be the equivalent of 270,000 LT miles at 45mpg.

That's a lot of miles before failure. Not saying it shouldn't be changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
FWIW My Lincoln MK VIII would not start one day and I traced it to a clogged fuel filter. It took a while to find the issue because "they never go bad". Now I have a fuel pressure guage.

WAK1200LT
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post #19 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 2:06 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF
Utt Ohh, real world experience with documented proof versus a "written article". Uhh must be a placebo effect
Documented proof of what? that it worked for a day in a sandstorm, thats excellent
if you drive in sandstorms, why u would I do not know, what if it didnt work?

Anyway "written article" is a result of testing multiple filters, not sure how else
results could be published.

"Placebo effect" not sure what that means in relation to this?

Point being K&N performed well for this motorhome, on that day, so thats
excellent.

Never seen K&N publish any info on how there product is superior to a quality
paper filter.

Having seen far to many filthy K&N and other branded oiled filters in engines
because owners figure they are bullet proof long lasting wonder filters,
I personally am not a fan.

BTW "written article" is a non-biased test based on facts.

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post #20 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 2:48 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick

"Placebo effect" not sure what that means in relation to this?

Point being K&N performed well for this motorhome, on that day, so thats
excellent.

BTW "written article" is a non-biased test based on facts.
You must read "written article's" like you do posts .... he was talking about a fuel filter .... the title of the thread.... oh you might have missed that as well

I'm just funnin' witcha .... but you asked for it too

I again will say that, and I'm not alone in that with more air there will likely be more dust.... however we breath unfiltered air and last longer than any motor I've ever owned....

If you want anecdotal evidence of performance and durability in an overpriced item.... I think K&N is a poster child.....

I still love you though and you are invited to my Superbowl party!

Ghaison (Jason)
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2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
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post #21 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 4:28 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
however we breath unfiltered air and last longer than any motor I've ever owned....
Actually we do have a sort of "oiled" filter in our sinuses and Trachea that collect alot of that dust before it gets to our "internal " delicate parts (Alveoli). Unless you happen to work in a coal mine in the 40's. But we don't have a fuel filter...

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #22 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 7:25 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick
Documented proof of what? that it worked for a day in a sandstorm, thats excellent
if you drive in sandstorms, why u would I do not know, what if it didnt work?

Anyway "written article" is a result of testing multiple filters, not sure how else
results could be published.

"Placebo effect" not sure what that means in relation to this?

Point being K&N performed well for this motorhome, on that day, so thats
excellent.

Never seen K&N publish any info on how there product is superior to a quality
paper filter.

Having seen far to many filthy K&N and other branded oiled filters in engines
because owners figure they are bullet proof long lasting wonder filters,
I personally am not a fan.

BTW "written article" is a non-biased test based on facts.
Hey guy use what you like.

Placebo is a reference from another debate, on another product, in a Galaxy far away.

Do you have any clue to all of the dirt running machines that use oiled air filters?

What you have seen is some ass wipe that is too lazy or stupid to take care of a filter and assume all do that, and that is how we all take care of them? I mean I been using the 2.5" diameter by 14" Cone on my intake on my Turbo for 7 years and my car does just fine at 21 Lbs. of boost.

I also have read and re read the Oil study that Amsoil publishes and believe it is a pretty unbiased study. I still run plain old Dino Castrol GTX.

You can believe everything you read, or believe everything you have tried over extended periods of time and know works.

Guess you never flipped a round ring, paper air cleaner cover over inverted on a motor, and had fun as a kid. Never killed anything I drove then, but a 350 sounded good as hell that way. Then I found oiled filters on my dirt bikes, and then K&N specific OEM specific, and have used them over 20 years now that I think about it. My 89 Tacoma had one in it and at 79,000 miles it was still fine when I sold it.

Your bike your money spend it how you like.

But don't just throw a article out in front of yourself and say it is so.

If you used one and blew a motor because of it let us know. If you know of a incident of where it has happened please post a link.

Now OP replace the fuel filter every 24,000 and make sure you replace all clamps the first time you do it.

Lee
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15 R1200 RTLC San Marino Blue Metallic (Sold)
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post #23 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 8:28 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
I drive around with my head in the tank hoping to see exactly this!

That was a tank your head was in...oooooohhhhhhhhh


p.s.- ain't dry humor great!!!

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post #24 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 10:08 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell
That was a tank your head was in...oooooohhhhhhhhh


p.s.- ain't dry humor great!!!
BURRRRN! Well played!

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2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
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post #25 of 33 Old Feb 6th, 2010, 11:12 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF
Hey guy use what you like.

Placebo is a reference from another debate, on another product, in a Galaxy far away.

Do you have any clue to all of the dirt running machines that use oiled air filters?

What you have seen is some ass wipe that is too lazy or stupid to take care of a filter and assume all do that, and that is how we all take care of them? I mean I been using the 2.5" diameter by 14" Cone on my intake on my Turbo for 7 years and my car does just fine at 21 Lbs. of boost.

I also have read and re read the Oil study that Amsoil publishes and believe it is a pretty unbiased study. I still run plain old Dino Castrol GTX.

You can believe everything you read, or believe everything you have tried over extended periods of time and know works.

Guess you never flipped a round ring, paper air cleaner cover over inverted on a motor, and had fun as a kid. Never killed anything I drove then, but a 350 sounded good as hell that way. Then I found oiled filters on my dirt bikes, and then K&N specific OEM specific, and have used them over 20 years now that I think about it. My 89 Tacoma had one in it and at 79,000 miles it was still fine when I sold it.

Your bike your money spend it how you like.

But don't just throw a article out in front of yourself and say it is so.

If you used one and blew a motor because of it let us know. If you know of a incident of where it has happened please post a link.

Now OP replace the fuel filter every 24,000 and make sure you replace all clamps the first time you do it.
I am sorry if somehow I have offended you with my opinion on air filters, apparently "your"
opinion carries more weight.

Having driven and flown hundreds of different motorized pieces of equipment as a
heavy equipment operator and pilot, I am not" just throwing it out there". I too use
oiled filters in my dirt machines, and it is not about blowing up motors, its about
what people perceive as better quality for the task at hand.

As far as substantuating, can't really because I never tested a vehicle with and without
a K&N to see what lasted longer. Have you? So before you get so high and mighty about your vast knowledge, why don't you prove somehow that they are superior.

Remember opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.

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post #26 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 12:14 am
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Re: Laf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick
I am sorry if somehow I have offended you with my opinion on air filters, apparently "your"
opinion carries more weight.

Having driven and flown hundreds of different motorized pieces of equipment as a
heavy equipment operator and pilot, I am not" just throwing it out there". I too use
oiled filters in my dirt machines, and it is not about blowing up motors, its about
what people perceive as better quality for the task at hand.

As far as substantuating, can't really because I never tested a vehicle with and without
a K&N to see what lasted longer. Have you? So before you get so high and mighty about your vast knowledge, why don't you prove somehow that they are superior.

Remember opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
I don't think you offended anyone anymore than I believe that you are indeed sorry LOL

Seriously though, there are pro's and con's to any purchase.... and everyone has reasons for making certain decisions.... and some feel more strongly than others about those decisions and then there are those of us that don't take ourselves too seriously and are entertained by those who do.....

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #27 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 12:21 am
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Re: Laf

[QUOTE=atrovarious]I don't think you offended anyone anymore than I believe that you are indeed sorry LOL

Seriously though, there are pro's and con's to any purchase.... and everyone has reasons for making certain decisions.... and some feel more strongly than others about those decisions and then there are those of us that don't take ourselves too seriously and are entertained by those who do.....[/QUOTE

Very true

BTW whats a SuperBowl?


Indy by 12

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post #28 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 7:37 am
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

ITs the AMerican Stanley CUP only played on turf........

We also have- sometimes , not as frequently.. brawls (not enough at times like in wrestling- you know the Jerry Springer type)..

Lots ot going back and forth.. NO icing tho, usually called incomplete pass..
We have beer..
and the trophy isnt as big as the CUP..


ALSO a superbowl IS a big bowl of doritos and salsa/beandip/ cheese dip... guacamole...Any high calorie intake..........

Beer is a FOOD group.. Veggies so ya dont have ta eat them carrots and celery sticks

Don't be afraid to say what you feel, as those that matter DOnt mind and those that mind Dont matter.
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post #29 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 8:51 am
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Re: Laf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick
I am sorry if somehow I have offended you with my opinion on air filters, apparently "your"
opinion carries more weight.

Having driven and flown hundreds of different motorized pieces of equipment as a
heavy equipment operator and pilot, I am not" just throwing it out there". I too use
oiled filters in my dirt machines, and it is not about blowing up motors, its about
what people perceive as better quality for the task at hand.

As far as substantuating, can't really because I never tested a vehicle with and without
a K&N to see what lasted longer. Have you? So before you get so high and mighty about your vast knowledge, why don't you prove somehow that they are superior.

Remember opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
No worries dude, use what you want your bike and money.

Again I have used them for too many years to worry about it, have you?

My point is you post an article that says it is so, so it must be? Hmmm Pluto was a planet, but not now. I can post a article to support any view or opinion I have, don't make it so.

It is a oil/tire/spark plug/oil filter debate that can not be won. It is personal preference.

While I liked to be informed I don't like a "sky is falling" type of hype where an article is posted not in one post, but in another by someone who is just trying to save others money. I know your intentions are well intended but an article is not proof. And while the artical may be technically correct, does it even matter in real word?

Again I don't care if you run one or not. I, like others have seen they work and have no adverse affects that have hurt the motors they are run on. Your experience may be different and I would like to hear those experiences.

Ron shared a picture of what it stopped. My Father/Brother/Uncles and a bunch of others have run them for years. If there was an issue I would think we would have needed to have the injectors/float bowels of our vehicles cleaned a bunch from the dirt swirling with the air in the mixture. Never a injector/carburetor problem in 20 years or so.

No worries on opinions, I just put more faith in those formed by experience rather then a article.



Use one in something for 10 years then let me know.

Lee
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post #30 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 9:11 am
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Lee

Good point, I should try em before I knock em, and I apologize for being harsh(bad day)

I guess what I should have said is I don't care for the results of the study showing
the difference in filtering qualities. But as you and others have mentioned, all appears
to be well with your engines, so the proof is there.

Just over analyzing stats again (winter blues)

Still going with Indy by 12

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post #31 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 9:56 am
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Re: Lee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickmick
Good point, I should try em before I knock em, and I apologize for being harsh(bad day)

I guess what I should have said is I don't care for the results of the study showing
the difference in filtering qualities. But as you and others have mentioned, all appears
to be well with your engines, so the proof is there.

Just over analyzing stats again (winter blues)

Still going with Indy by 12
No worries dude as you said opinions and such

At least you (we) did not start, or participate in an oil thread

We had 20" of snow yesterday to dig out so I also understand Winter Blues, or at least my back does this morning

Again we agree to disagree and that is cool, and for sure would love to spin some tires up in your neck of the woods.

Lee
17.5 R1200 GSW Black Low
15 R1200 RTLC San Marino Blue Metallic (Sold)
10 Liquid Silver FJR1300 (Sold)
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post #32 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 2:29 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Colts by 10... Football it's like hockey with real athletes JK actually pro hockey is fine by me... baseball is the sport I despise I would rather watch grass grow!

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #33 of 33 Old Feb 7th, 2010, 2:36 pm
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Re: Has anyone ever seen a fuel filter failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
Colts by 10... Football it's like hockey with real athletes JK actually pro hockey is fine by me... baseball is the sport I despise I would rather watch grass grow!
Just like golf, bowling, baseball is a particpant sport, otherwise

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